Does going forward in an evangelical meeting true conversion?

[lismore]

The harvest is ripe. We are to be ready in season and out of season. So, all seasons the harvest is ripe.

Amen! Wherever the true gospel is preached there is fruit, God's power is evident, lives are being changed, that is what the gospel does.

This same Good News that came to you is going out all over the world. It is bearing fruit everywhere by changing lives, just as it changed your lives from the day you first heard and understood the truth about God's wonderful grace. (Colossians 1:6) .

 

[lismore]

Basically, those who are preaching that all one has to do is to put their hand up to get their "ticket" to heaven, and then go back to living their normal lives, are lying to the people.

Hello Watchman. Thanks for your post. If the message presented is without the power of the gospel truth then people will not change and will keep living their lives as before. I don't think it's a case of going back to their normal lives, it's that's where they've always been. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for all who believe, but if churches present their own message, sans gospel power, nothing can change. God Bless

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hello Watchman. Thanks for your post. If the message presented is without the power of the gospel truth then people will not change and will keep living their lives as before. I don't think it's a case of going back to their normal lives, it's that's where they've always been. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for all who believe, but if churches present their own message, sans gospel power, nothing can change. God Bless

I was one of those people who, in 1966, went forward in an altar call and received my "ticket". For the next two years I tried my best to be a good Pentecostal Christian. The fact was I was a pain in the neck to everyone. I knew a lot about church and stuff but came to the realisation that I didn't know God at all. I came to the point where I knew that there was a blockage somewhere between God and me, and so I started praying and seeking God to find out what it was and how to overcome it. When I got really desperate to the point where I considered throwing in the religious towel because it wasn't working for me, I decided to get out in the middle of a golf course at 11pm under a starry sky and told God that He was in earshot of my voice and that I had come out to introduce myself to Him. At once, I felt all lit up like Times Square inside myself and I knew that God was real. One minute I didn't know, and the next minute I did. Looking back I know that was the time I got filled with the Holy Spirit for the first time, even though I had been attending a Pentecostal church for the previous two years. My heart was changed in that golf course, and I could stop trying to be religious, but to rest in Christ and allow Him to transform me. The transformation process has continue from 1969 until now - 54 years, and I am only just realising more clearly what the true Gospel is all about. I thank the Lord that He has allowed me to get this far in life so that I can continue to learn what is really important and to continue to put to death those areas which are just time wasters and not contributing to my life in Christ. In many ways I feel little different than what I felt way back 54 years ago. I feel that I have made little real progress toward being able to glow in the dark like some others who are much better along the way that I am. It seems that many things I tolerated previously are no longer acceptable in the same way as I see more and more worldliness in me being revealed to me. My greatest regret is that I haven't spent enough time just fellowshipping with God Himself instead of getting involved in time-wasting religious stuff that really didn't edify and caused me to mark time.

You would think that after all this time and experience in Christian things I would up there with the big boys; but no. Instead of having an influential position in ministry in a large church, I am in a small Union church working as a treasurer and occasional worship leader among less than 20 people. So much for being faithful in small things and then given responsibility over bigger things. It seems I have gone in the opposite direction. But what is important to me is that those 20 get the true Gospel from me so that they won't be ashamed in the Judgment. My request to the Lord is that when I come up for Judgment, that I don't come behind someone like John Wesley or Jonathan Edwards, or any of the martyrs who gave their lives rather than deny Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hello Watchman. Thanks for your post. If the message presented is without the power of the gospel truth then people will not change and will keep living their lives as before. I don't think it's a case of going back to their normal lives, it's that's where they've always been. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for all who believe, but if churches present their own message, sans gospel power, nothing can change. God Bless

Just after I finished my post I had another thought that is worth mentioning. I viewed a Youtube message from a speaker who was talking about how we can know the will of God in what we plan to do. It was quite a revelation to me and I wondered why I hadn't known it for all the years I have been a believer.

There is a Scripture in Psalms where it says that we should not be like a horse or a mule, directed with a bit and a bridle. I realise that seeking the will of God for some kind of inner voice of instruction is just like being a mule that has to be directed with a bit and a bridle. It is more than "getting a Scripture" to support what we want to do. It is much more realistic and practical than that.

There is a Scripture that says: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2), and: "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things" (Phil 4:8).

So, when we think of something we want, or need to do, we ask ourselves, is it:
good
acceptable
perfect
God's will as shown in Scripture
true
honest
virtuous
worthy of praise?

If it fits this criteria, we can know that it is the will of God for us. We don't need to get any inner voice, or proof text. We just have to know that what we intend to do fits the criteria and then we can be confident that we are doing the will of God.

I have had a number of relationships with women between marriages before I married my second wife 30 years ago. Those relationships were built on lust, trying to meet my needs in my own way. When I examine my motives in line with the criteria, I know that those relationships were not God's will for me, because they were not good, virtuous, perfect, or acceptable. Someone can walk out of a church because they are angry at the pastor. Is that the will of God? Probably not, because leaving a church because one is angry is not good, virtuous, worthy of praise, or perfect. God's will in that situation would be to go and reconcile with the pastor and settle differences.

Three years ago I moved from Auckland to Christchurch. I sold my home in Auckland, and bought another one in Christchurch. Was it the will of God? I didn't have any inner voice, nor did I have a proof text for the move. But I wanted to be closer to my adult daughter in my twilight years, buy a less expensive house, and live in a quieter part of the country in a city I knew and loved. The move fit all the criteria, and it has worked out well for me. I joined the small Union church, and the Lord told me that it was more important what I put into a church than what I could get out of it. That fit the criteria, and that they needed someone like me who stood for the Gospel of Christ in the face of the liberalism that was in that church. I was immediately put to work as the treasurer and property convenor, and invited to be on the preaching/ministry team. God opened the door of ministry for me because I was doing His will in my move from Auckland to Christchurch.

That's why we should have no fear in what we plan to do at any time if we are aware of the criteria that we can test ourselves by.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The reason why you don't want to attend the church service is that it is basically dead. If the Holy Spirit was really there, you would not want to keep away from it. As a true believer, you would be drawn to it because in the presence of the Lord is fullness of joy. The trouble is that there is no presence of the Lord in that church and because of that there is nothing there to attract you.

No that’s not correct at all. I guarantee the Holy Spirit is at work in the hearts of that congregation, I’ve witnessed it myself.

 

[1Tonne]

No that’s not correct at all. I guarantee the Holy Spirit is at work in the hearts of that congregation, I’ve witnessed it myself.

Not saying that this is you. I am not sure on your reasoning for not going. But this was posted up about 9 hours ago and I thought is was kind of relevant. - interesting anyway and it's short.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No that’s not correct at all. I guarantee the Holy Spirit is at work in the hearts of that congregation, I’ve witnessed it myself.

If the Holy Spirit is really there and you are deciding to stay away, then there has to be a question involving whether you are truly born again or not. The Scripture says about Jesus: "If I [Jesus] am lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." So if a church is not drawing people to it, then it may be that although people are saying that the Holy Spirit is present, Jesus is not really being lifted up. This puts a reasonable doubt on the claim that the Holy Spirit is really involved in the meetings. In my view, when the Holy Spirit is really involved, the sick are healed, demons cast out, backsliders are getting right with God and sinners are on their faces crying out to God for salvation. If there is an intense sense of the awe of God's presence that makes one to know for sure that they are really meeting God in all His majesty in that place, then the Holy Spirit is really there. But if the meeting consists of three hymns, a sermon, and a bit of falling down, jerking and shaking in the altar call, and people walk away unaffected to get on with their lives for the rest of the week, then that is an indication that the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be found in that meeting.

 

[disciple Clint]

In other words you are not sure you can answer the question?

No in the words I plainly used I can decide what the answer is for me but I do not have any authority to decide that question for anyone else, that decision has to come from God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No in the words I plainly used I can decide what the answer is for me but I do not have any authority to decide that question for anyone else, that decision has to come from God.

The Bible clearly defines what salvation is and how to receive it. There is only one narrow gate, not several that individuals can choose.

 

[disciple Clint]

The Bible clearly defines what salvation is and how to receive it. There is only one narrow gate, not several that individuals can choose.

and there again what the bible says and what any given scripture means is a matter of subjective speculation and frankly the bible has several answers to the question of what must I do to be saved. The debate will continue and in the end each of us has to decide what we believe and how we are saved.

 

[d taylor]

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​

Going forward in a church has nothing to do with believing in Jesus, which can be done where the person is sitting or standing in a church. Or at a store, on a sidewalk, at home, in prison, out on a boat in a lake, river or ocean. Anywhere is the place a person can believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

The problem is not the walking of an isle or the place, but it is the message being given to people. Does what people are being told to do, correctly teach how to have God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

 

[d taylor]

-​

In a public church setting, I believe the best way to conduct the end of a service invitation. Is first from the front or the pulpit of a church, the preacher (or guest speaker) should tell the people of the service.

If there is anyone in the audience who has not believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. You can do this right now in the very seat you are sitting. Jesus is the resurrection and the life, do you believe this. At the very moment of belief in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation, you become a permanent born again child of God and have crossed over from death to life. If you do not understand what it means to believe in Jesus and need further instruction, I (pastor) will be happy to explain this to you further one on one.

Now after the (above message^) is spoken to the people in attendance.
The pastor may offer an invitation for anyone who is a believer and not a member of the church and would like to become a member today. You may come forward and present yourself as a person who wants to join our membership at the church.

 

[1Tonne]

There are 2 things you need to do to be saved. First, believe in the sacrifice that Jesus did and put your faith in His sacrifices, and also, turn from your sins. If someone comes up in an alter call, and prays a prayer, it does not mean that they are saved. There is more to it than that. A person needs to truly repent. So, turn from their sins. There is no place in the bible that says, pray a special prayer and then you are saved.
But in saying this, I think that alter calls are still OK. If a person comes up and prays a prayer to be saved, it is a good marking point for when they chose to put their faith in Christ and turn from their sin. It means that they can have a date that they can tell people when the cross made sense to them.
I do believe that the story of the cross is not explained enough in church and thus, the church does not give the Power of God a chance to work in someone's conscience. In fact, for 1 year in one particular church, I took note of how often the Gospel was said, and it was only said twice. And both times, it was just skimmed. If it is said, and it sinks into a person, making sense, then it would be a good time for this person to say a prayer. But I would also advise the person, that they get alone and truly tell God about the sorrow they have for their sins. Often, a person cannot show the true sorrow/anguish in front of a congregation. God desires a broken and contrite heart.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are 2 things you need to do to be saved. First, believe in the sacrifice that Jesus did and put your faith in His sacrifices, and also, turn from your sins. If someone comes up in an alter call, and prays a prayer, it does not mean that they are saved. There is more to it than that. A person needs to truly repent. So, turn from their sins. There is no place in the bible that says, pray a special prayer and then you are saved.
But in saying this, I think that alter calls are still OK. If a person comes up and prays a prayer to be saved, it is a good marking point for when they chose to put their faith in Christ and turn from their sin. It means that they can have a date that they can tell people when the cross made sense to them.
I do believe that the story of the cross is not explained enough in church and thus, the church does not give the Power of God a chance to work in someone's conscience. In fact, for 1 year in one particular church, I took note of how often the Gospel was said, and it was only said twice. And both times, it was just skimmed. If it is said, and it sinks into a person, making sense, then it would be a good time for this person to say a prayer. But I would also advise the person, that they get alone and truly tell God about the sorrow they have for their sins. Often, a person cannot show the true sorrow/anguish in front of a congregation. God desires a broken and contrite heart.

I think that anyone who goes forward at an altar call should be taken into a side room with someone who can clearly explain the Gospel of Christ and what must be done to become truly converted. Then they would know that it involves more than just praying a sinner's prayer.

 

[hislegacy]

Why is it that the preaching that all we have to do is to believe and accept, that the churches are full of false converts who have no real fear of God, and who after saying the sinner's prayer have gone on to live their lives as normal?

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Perhaps they just believe the scripture as plainly stated.

 

[1Tonne]

Verse 10 of Romans 10 has the answer to why we have so many false converts. "For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness".
Many people profess to believe but in reality, their actions show that they do not truly believe. They do not live in righteousness. They profess with their lips, but their actions do not align up with what they say. So, our beliefs are substantiated in action. If we truly believe we will repent and turn from our sin. Simply saying that you believe in Christ does not save you. Even Satan believes that Jesus is real. There has to be a real heart change where the person wants to honour God.
A good quote from John Mcarthur is “We are saved by faith and grace alone, but we will be judged by works.”
So, "Believe and repent" should be preached more. Not just "believe". And when it is preached, it needs to be pointed out, that real belief will show real repentance. Belief results in righteousness
James 2:24 is similar to what John Mcarthur said, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Perhaps they just believe the scripture as plainly stated.

With a genuine conversion to Christ the evidence of the person truly receiving the Holy Spirit will be that a major transformation of heart has taken place.

 

[hislegacy]

With a genuine conversion to Christ the evidence of the person truly receiving the Holy Spirit will be that a major transformation of heart has taken place.

Thanks for your opinion - what does that have to do with Scripture?

 

[1Tonne]

Thanks for your opinion - what does that have to do with Scripture?

Watchman has pretty much just reiterated what I said about verse 10. True belief will have true repentance. There is a major transformation within the person. So much so that it will drive them from sin.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for your opinion - what does that have to do with Scripture?

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things have passed away; all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

" Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:17-24).

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26).

So what I said has everything to do with Scripture. I know that because I read the Bible.