Does going forward in an evangelical meeting true conversion?

[Maria Billingsley]

Should we be satisfied that in spite of the number of mega churches in our main cities, the secular community at large don't even know they are there, much less having any real impact on it? Perhaps most churches have confined their Christianity within their four walls, insulated from the community at large. Quite different for the 120 in the upper room who got filled with the Holy Spirit and then went out on the street where the people were and where Peter preached the Gospel. If 120 filled with the Spirit turned Jerusalem upside down, would the 4000 people in a mega church saying that they are filled with the same Spirit be mistaken in their belief that they are actually filled with the Holy Spirit when there is no impact on their city at all?

If there are 121 among the 4000 then we are ahead of the game.
Blessings.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The church has been filled with many false converts. I believe that this has happened for 2 reasons.
First is because we have taken away the law from the Gospel (if it is mentioned, it is skimmed over). Before we say the Good News, people need to know why they need the Good News. If they do not see their sin in it's true light, then they will continue in their sin. So, they may believe in the sacrifice that Jesus did, but they do not turn from their sin because they do not see the seriousness of it. If they see the seriousness of their sin, then they will turn from it. Who wouldn't turn from their sin, if they truly knew that it was going to lead to condemnation? Only a fool would stay in their sin.
The second reason why the church has been filled with false converts is because the church puts more faith in their friendships to bring the lost to Christ than they do in the Gospel. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Not our friendships. Most believes do not tell the Gospel very often. What believers do instead is they befriend a person and then they do kind acts in the hope that the lost friend will see Christ in him. Then over time, they get to be better friends and the non-believer is invited to church. He comes and makes friends with other church goers and hears the Gospel (not preceded with this law). Then he says he is a believer and says a prayer and is now accepted by the congregation as saved. But in reality, his real reason for being there is the companionship of others. In his heart, he does not have a true understanding of his sin or the cross.
In saying this, we are to make friends and do friendship evangelism, but that is just who we are. That is our everyday living. We are not really going out of our way to save the lost. By our good and kind deeds, people will then see how we act and that it aligns with the Bible. So, our actions substantiate our faith. If our actions align with what we believe, then when we say what we believe, it gives it credibility.
We need to put more faith in saying the Gospel. That is why Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel to every creature. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
So, learn how to share the Gospel. Put in the effort to learn and then tell the lost. You will most likely stuff it up but still continue and evaluate how to say it better. Be a courageous soldier. Not a coward.

A praying church is an effective one. If we want to meet God when we go to church we need to spend time with God in our private prayer room, and as a church spend time with God as a group. If a church is not praying it is just playing. There is more organising in the supper room than agonising in the upper room. It is prayer that makes a church supernatural, rather than superficial.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If there are 121 among the 4000 then we are ahead of the game.
Blessings.

I don't think there are, otherwise those 121 would make the church alive and supernatural instead of dead and superficial.

I know that I'm no better than anyone else, but I am becoming very unsatisfied with the current state of affairs in the church. I'm starting to know that "the emperor has no clothes" no matter how much people are pretending that he has.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I don't think there are, otherwise those 121 would make the church alive and supernatural instead of dead and superficial.

I know that I'm no better than anyone else, but I am becoming very unsatisfied with the current state of affairs in the church. I'm starting to know that "the emperor has no clothes" no matter how much people are pretending that he has.

I think you are wrong. We do not know the heart, only our Father knows this.
Blessings.

 

[Unqualified]

In comparison with the early church that began with the 120 in the upper room, our modern church is a mere damp squib. Whose fault is that? Our modern church is failing to make any impression on our secular community. In spite of the many mega churches, and all the hallelujah hootenannies going on, homosexuality is increasing, abortions are commonplace, the transgender community is forcing people to adopt alternative pronouns to "he" and "she", to validate themselves. Crime is on the increase with mass shootings happening all over the United States. In NZ this week there have been more than six ramraids of convenience stores around the country. Where is the church? Nowhere. It's stuck within its own four walls, being self indulgent, preaching to each other with no effect. My view is that the reason why the church has no answer for our modern secular community is that they have religion but no Holy Spirit. If the church did have the Holy Spirit, there would be a marked effect on the community around it. In most cases churches are pretending to have the Holy Spirit, when all they have is man's programmes and man's wisdom.

Do you really think the harvest is ripe? Not until the revival and persecution. We really shouldn’t be arguing among ourselves, not a good witness. We have the books of the Bible and the same truths they had. A few people are getting saved every week at some churches. But that is only the beginning. People want too much and don’t want to put out the effort. We don’t have the first fruits of the HS. The first century Christians were with Jesus, saw the miracles and the abundance of God. They still had trouble with believing until Pentecost. The Thessalonians were on fire and witnessed with tremendous persecution. Now I don’t think there is anything I could say to make people want to go through that. In my preaching to the poor there is just no fruit but a planted seed for a later time.

In Muslim countries people often have a dream or experience with God. I had one that got me to obey in the things that separated. Some people want that. Reasoning isn’t enough. It seems we can no longer even guarantee joy for a person who accepts Jesus. They have too many preconceptions. They have heard it before. We have been preceded by unkindness and rules and demands. Love is not enough even in our relationships. I think it’s winding down.

 

[1Tonne]

The harvest is ripe. We are to be ready in season and out of season. So, all seasons the harvest is ripe.
I went to a secular town event a couple of weeks ago and spoke the Gospel to about 40 people. Out of them 15 made definite steps closer to making a decision for Christ. They were amazed and many of them said that they had never heard the Gospel spoken in such a way as to make sense. And out of those 15, 6 of them did make a decision to put their faith in Christ and leave their sin.
One man who was about 60-65, was getting angrier and angrier when we spoke but then finally when I got to tell him what God did for guilty sinners so that they would not end up in hell, he began to quieten down. Then he started nodding. And by the end, he too said that he had never heard the Gospel said in such a way. He said that he needed to really think about what I had said because it did make sense. I was amazed and excited. He went from being angry and loud and against God, to understanding and willing to think about it.
We need to put more faith in the Gospel being the power of God for people's salvation. Speak the Gospel in all its fulness. If we truly love the lost as we love ourselves, then we would warn them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think you are wrong. We do not know the heart, only our Father knows this.
Blessings.

I think that is an excuse for being prayerless. A lot of prayer is made up of just shopping lists and once the list has been requested prayer stops. It is easier to plan the programme for the Sunday service and have the same old three hymns, notices and sermon than to spend extended time waiting on God to find out what He wants to do in the service. Often we ask God to bless what we have planned, when He wants to do something else, so He lets us plan our own thing and waits until we realise that nothing is working and we start seeking God to find out why. The trouble is, we convince ourselves that it is working and we programme our services Sunday after Sunday, much like a person playing the pokies, in the hope that if we try hard enough we will strike the jackpot. But it never comes, so we use the excuse that only the Father knows. The trouble is that He wants to tell us if we are prepared to take the time to wait on Him. If you examine the churches that are attracting members and saving souls for Christ, you will find that they are a praying church who spends time waiting on God for Him to give them direction.

 

[disciple Clint]

Why is it that the preaching that all we have to do is to believe and accept, that the churches are full of false converts who have no real fear of God, and who after saying the sinner's prayer have gone on to live their lives as normal?

Based on who's judgement are they "false converts"?

 

[1Tonne]

Based on who's judgement are they "false converts"?

If someone becomes a Christian, or they say that they have become a Christian, then you should see a big change in them pretty quickly. How could you not be changed dramatically. If you were to have a head-on encounter with a logging truck, then you would be dramatically changed. Our God is much bigger than a logging truck and so we should see a massive change in a person who has understood the cross. They will leave their sin, they will read their Bible, they will talk about the things of God, they will study, they will think mainly about Godly things, they will tell others of God's great sacrifice and they will be changed. You can judge a tree is judged by its fruits.

 

[disciple Clint]

If someone becomes a Christian, or they say that they have become a Christian, then you should see a big change in them pretty quickly. How could you not be changed dramatically. If you were to have a head-on encounter with a logging truck, then you would be dramatically changed. Our God is much bigger than a logging truck and so we should see a massive change in a person who has understood the cross. They will leave their sin, they will read their Bible, they will talk about the things of God, they will study, they will think mainly about Godly things, they will tell others of God's great sacrifice and they will be changed. You can judge a tree is judged by its fruits.

Change takes time, not everyone proceeds at the same pace or in the same way, frankly I am concerned when someone makes an immediate radical change because I think that they may have made an emotional decision to fill an emotional need that they have and they may not have made a lasting decision. BUT no one other than the person themselves knows what the level of their faith truly is and it is not up to anyone to judge someone else regarding their salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Change takes time, not everyone proceeds at the same pace or in the same way, frankly I am concerned when someone makes an immediate radical change because I think that they may have made an emotional decision to fill an emotional need that they have and they may not have made a lasting decision. BUT no one other than the person themselves knows what the level of their faith truly is and it is not up to anyone to judge someone else regarding their salvation.

It is true that we cannot make a judgment about whether someone is saved or not. But the question can be asked: "How do you know that you are saved?"

 

[1Tonne]

Change can take time, but I don't think it takes years. You should be able to see a difference pretty quickly. The issue with a lot of people who come to church and then become believers is, often you do not see any change even over a couple of years. If there is change, it can be very minimal.
If someone has seen their sin truly for what it is and God has given then a new heart, then they will also have new desires. Those desires should be to honour God with their life and the person should also start to desire what God desires. So, we should have the same will as the Father. That will is that no one should perish. 2Peter 3:9 "The Lord... not willing that any should perish".
Matt 7:20-21, "So then, you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
Verse 20 does make it seem as though we will be able to see if they are a true believer. You could say that we should be able to judge by one's fruits if they are truly saved.

Now going back to 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord... not willing that any should perish". If we truly love our neighbour, then we would hate it if they were to come under condemnation. So, share the Gospel with people. It would be unloving not to. Infact, you would be disobeying God by not warning as many people as possible. Love your neighbour as you love yourself.
Also, Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel to all creation. He also said, "The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me". So, the question becomes, "How much do we love God if we choose not to obey his commandment to share the Gospel to all creation?"
Equip yourself so that you are able to share the Gospel effectively.

 

[disciple Clint]

It is true that we cannot make a judgment about whether someone is saved or not. But the question can be asked: "How do you know that you are saved?"

and that is a question that has been around since there was such a thing as salvation, it is a question that each person has to answer for themselves

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

and that is a question that has been around since there was such a thing as salvation, it is a question that each person has to answer for themselves

In other words you are not sure you can answer the question?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The big question that we all have to ask ourselves: How do we know that we are really saved?

This passage that came back to remembrance seems relevant.

But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19)

No you can't know who is saved. Yes, they should be repenting.

 

[Hazelelponi]

How is it that in many evangelical meetings, many go forward in response to the invitation to receive Christ, spend a couple of minutes praying the sinner's prayer, but there is no increase in the attendance of the churches? Is it because most who make a verbal commitment to Christ leave the meeting and go on living the same way as before? "I prayed the sinners prayer, I now believe in Christ therefore I'm saved now." Really? How about conviction of sin, repentance with tears, forsaking all known sin, striving to purify oneself? I wonder how many went forward at an altar call, prayed the sinner's prayer, carried on for a couple of months, and then decided that it wasn't working for them. Someone has said that the greatest enemy to true conversion is easy believer evangelism where all that is needed is for the person to go forward, make a verbal commitment and then go off and live life as before. No agonising over sin, no spending time in prayer and seeking God for a sanctified life; just turning up to church on Sunday morning to do their religious duty. Would that be what the Scripture says, "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."

I think some who are already saved go forward 1.) To make any previous non-believers feel less alone and on the spot 2.) Plus, it's a good time to ask forgiveness for anything that may need forgiven and it's good if you're having a struggle to have others pray over you and for you.

 

[lismore]

How is it that in many evangelical meetings, many go forward in response to the invitation to receive Christ, spend a couple of minutes praying the sinner's prayer, but there is no increase in the attendance of the churches?

Hello! Interesting Q, my thoughts:-

I have several relatives who have prayed the sinner's prayer at a meeting, but afterwards have never darkened the door of a church, nor do they have any desire to. One cousin describes his experience as 'having got his ticket', (the idiom that the speaker used, put up your hand for a ticket to heaven) that is his sum of interest in having a spiritual conversation, he's engaged to be married to a pagan.

I don't think they can be blamed, it's how the message is presented to them. To begin with it shouldn't be presented as a message. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God commands all people everywhere to repent, he doesn't invite them to accept a synthetic message.

Quite often the speaker at an event will talk about themselves, a 'testimony' that may well be embellished and cannot be verified. It's a human-centered message, reversing the God centered word of the bible- God wants to do wonderful things for you because you're great. I was down to my last dime and found a wad of notes in my bible, you can too, all you have to do is put up your hand. It's emotionally driven, with psychosomatic or psychedelic repetitive music, the whole set up designed to produce a feeling of euphoria and funnel someone into a decision. Not to repent and be converted, but a decision. Invite the Jesus of the speaker's imagination into your heart, don't worry about the Jesus of revelation in the bible. The brain is switched off, not the 'Come let us reason together' or 'Be transformed by the renewing of your mind' of the bible. Sometimes if the speaker does stop talking about themselves and turn to the bible it can be one verse only, perhaps out of it's context. The speaker could stand up and claim anything, it's a complete monologue by a professional salesman with no scrutiny or corporate accountability. If they are caught out having 'misspoken' it doesn't disqualify them from anything.

Apart from what is said, that which is not said also speaks volumes. Repentance, turning from sin and righteousness, sacrifice and service, self-denial, those legalistic old fashioned Biblical ideas, they'll turn people off. Just talk about worldly success, money, getting a better career, prosperity, getting ahead in life. All the things that the sin nature wants.

At a basic level if you have a bottle of medicine and dilute it one hundred times, more people will be able to drink it but it will lose it's efficacy. If you tip the medicine out and fill it up with sugar-water it will taste sweet, but apart from rotting your teeth it won't do anything. If someone doesn't know that they're sick then why would they take the medicine? God Bless

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hello! Interesting Q, my thoughts:-

I have several relatives who have prayed the sinner's prayer at a meeting, but afterwards have never darkened the door of a church, nor do they have any desire to. One cousin describes his experience as 'having got his ticket', (the idiom that the speaker used, put up your hand for a ticket to heaven) that is his sum of interest in having a spiritual conversation, he's engaged to be married to a pagan.

I don't think they can be blamed, it's how the message is presented to them. To begin with it shouldn't be presented as a message. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God commands all people everywhere to repent, he doesn't invite them to accept a synthetic message.

Quite often the speaker at an event will talk about themselves, a 'testimony' that may well be embellished and cannot be verified. It's a human-centered message, reversing the God centered word of the bible- God wants to do wonderful things for you because you're great. I went up to heaven and rode on a dinosaur with Elvis, I was down to my last dime and found a wad of notes in my bible, you can too, all you have to do is put up your hand. It's emotionally driven, with psychosomatic or psychedelic repetitive music, the whole set up designed to produce a feeling of euphoria and massage someone into a decision. Not to repent and be converted, but a decision. Invite the Jesus of the speaker's imagination into your heart, don't worry about the Jesus of revelation in the bible. The brain is switched off, not the 'Come let us reason together' or 'Be transformed by the renewing of your mind' of the bible. The speaker could stand up and claim anything, it's a complete monologue by a professional salesman with no scrutiny or corporate accountability. If they are caught out having 'misspoken' it doesn't disqualify them from anything.

Apart from what is said, that which is not said also speaks volumes. Repentance, turning from sin and righteousness, sacrifice and service, those legalistic old fashioned Biblical ideas, they'll turn people off. Just talk about worldly success, money, getting a better career, prosperity, getting ahead in life. All the things that the sin nature wants.

At a basic level if you have a bottle of medicine and dilute it one hundred times, more people will be able to drink it but it will lose it's efficacy. If you tip the medicine out and fill it up with sugar-water it will taste sweet, but apart from rotting your teeth it won't do anything. God Bless

Basically, those who are preaching that all one has to do is to put their hand up to get their "ticket" to heaven, and then go back to living their normal lives, are lying to the people. Praying a sinner's prayer, promising to trust in Christ and live for Him, and then not doing what is promised is lying to the Lord, and the person goes away worse that what he or she was before. In my opinion, such altar calls are a complete waste of time and a deception that makes people think that if they go forward and mutter a few seconds prayer is going to save them.

I have just been encouraging a member on another thread who sees himself as totally hopeless and unable to repent, and has basically given up. He is in a much better state that most who amble forward in altar calls thinking that they can be saved. Seeing oneself as a total sinner with no hope is the first essential step in salvation. Unless a person gets to that point, they will continue to believe that there is something good in them that causes Jesus to want to save them. Jesus doesn't save people because they deserve or need to be saved. He saves people because He is a Saviour. It is all about who Jesus Himself is, not who we are. The person who is to be saved needs to come to the point where they know that they are totally sinful, with no hope, and deserving of Hell, that they have broken every Commandment and they are under the wrath of God because God is angry at the wicked every day, so the Scripture says. Once a person realises the very bad news about themselves, they will welcome and grasp the good news that Jesus died for them on the Cross. You don't get that in a 30 second prayer at an altar call when there is loud music and people yelling through microphones.

The problem is that we give the good news about Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins before giving the bad news about ourselves. What has happened is easy believerism, people putting on the Christian "badge" and saying, "I am a Christian now" without any consciousness of their own absolutely lost state before God. Most who go forward in altar calls just get a bit of religion and little else. We can't have Christ and the world at the same time. This is the problem. We have multitudes of religious people who have one foot in Christ and the other foot in the world. They are basically hypocrites and not true believers. There are only two types of people - those who are dead in sin, and those who are dead to sin. The Scripture says that the person who is a friend of the world is no friend of God.

I like Ray Comfort's approach to evangelism. He says that to overcome the notion that we can bring a horse to water but can't make it drink, is to salt its oats. He does it by showing people that they are not good by showing how they are breaking the commandments (lying, stealing, lust, blasphemy) and showing that in that state they will be judged and end up in hell. Once they have understood that, he gives them the "parachute" that will save them - Jesus died on the cross to save them from their sins. He doesn't try to get them to make a decision on the spot. He tells them to go away and think about it. When those people go away and think about it and then decide for Christ, they are more likely to become more stable converts and productive long term believers.

The full Gospel is not believing in Jesus and getting baptised with the Spirit. It is knowing that we have broken God's Law and are total sinful train wrecks deserving of hell, and then being presented with the Saviour who died on the Cross to take our penalty for sin upon Himself. That is the full Gospel. When that is preached, then people get genuinely saved, and often an altar call is not needed, because they will rush to the altar and fall on their faces to get right with God. We don't often see that happening because only half of the Gospel is preached, resulting in easy believerism and religious hypocrisy.

 

[1Tonne]

By chance, I have been reading an apologetics book over the last week and the part I read last night covered this topic. In short, churches have stopped preceding the Gospel with the Law and they have stopped talking about Gods justice, and its consequences.

 

[lismore]

By chance, I have been reading an apologetics book over the last week and the part I read last night covered this topic. In short, churches have stopped preceding the Gospel with the Law and they have stopped talking about Gods justice, and its consequences.

Yes. As the bible says 'The seed is the word of God'.

LUKE 8:11
11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

1 PETER 1:23
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

If the seed is not used why would anyone expect a harvest?

Jeremiah 23:29

“Is not My word like a fire?” says the LORD, “And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

God Bless