Does God predestine sin?

Greg Cheney

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See Joshua 11:20.

I do not deny that God hardens hearts at times. I do claim he does it sparingly and for specific purposes. I deny that he picks certain people and says: "I'm going to harden your heart because I am not choosing you for salvation."
 
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disciple Clint

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All I can do is repeat myself. You not agreeing with my response does not negate that a response was given. I gave you an explanation - you do not accept it. I'm fine with that.
What negates a post is the inability to find evidence to justify it when it is challenged by facts.
 
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Clare73

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I do not deny that God hardens hearts at times. I do claim he does it sparingly and for specific purposes. I deny that he picks certain people and says: "I'm going to harden your heart because I am not choosing you for salvation."
Then we are agreed: God hardens hearts.

However, the issue was: that
God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do,

which I demonstrated that he does (Joshua 11:20).
 
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enoob57

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What does God give place to in Romans 9:23?

What did he give place to in Joshua 11:20?
God has no part with evil but that of judgment... neither verse shows God giving place to evil... we did that in the fall...
 
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Clare73

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God has no part with evil but that of judgment... neither verse shows God giving place to evil... we did that in the fall...
Please show how God using the evil objects of his wrath to make the riches of his glory known is not God using (giving place to) evil in Romans 9:23.

Please show how God hardening the hearts of the evil northern kings so that he might destroy them is not God using (giving place to) evil in Joshua 11:20.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Then we are agreed: God hardens hearts.

However, the issue was: that
God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do,

which I demonstrated that he does (Joshua 11:20).

God hardens hearts (turns them over to a reprobate mind) because they themselves have hardened their hearts toward him. In some cases, he uses this for a specific purpose but it is not something that God does because he chose in eternity past - I choose to harden your heart so you cannot be saved.
 
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Clare73

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God hardens hearts (turns them over to a reprobate mind) because they themselves have hardened their hearts toward him. In some cases, he uses this for a specific purpose but it is not something that God does because he chose in eternity past - I choose to harden your heart so you cannot be saved.
And I repeat:

However, the issue was: that
God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do,

which I demonstrated that he does in Joshua 11:20.
 
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Greg Cheney

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And I repeat:

However, the issue was: that
God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do,

which I demonstrated that he does in Joshua 11:20.

And I repeat - God gets angry at man for hardening his heart; he does not get angry at someone for what he himself causes. Pharaoh hardened his own heart; in response God turned him over to it.
 
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Clare73

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And I repeat - God gets angry at man for hardening his heart; he does not get angry at someone for what he himself causes. Pharaoh hardened his own heart; in response God turned him over to it.
Joshua 11:20 is not about Pharaoh, nor did the northern kings harden their own hearts toward Israel.
God hardened them, and then punished them for what their hardened hearts did.

Please stay on point: God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

He did in Joshua 11:20.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Joshua 11:20 is not about Pharaoh, nor did the northern kings harden their own hearts toward Israel.
God hardened them, and then punished them for what their hard hearts did.

Please stay on point: God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

He did in Joshua 11:20.

It is on point, it just doesn't fit in your box.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Joshua 11:20 is not about Pharaoh, nor did the northern kings harden their own hearts toward Israel.
God hardened them, and then punished them for what their hardened hearts did.

Please stay on point: God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

He did in Joshua 11:20.


“Some people acknowledge only two categories here, either God never interferes with man’s free will (absolute freedom), or God makes man do everything he does (absolute predestination). But are these two extremes the only possibilities? Is it not possible that God follows a general rule of allowing man freedom and yet sets aside that freedom when he deems it necessary and loving to do so? This is the very picture which seems to be portrayed in biblical history. God accomplishes his desires through people, and although the general rule is that God allows them to freely choose to work with him, God sometimes fulfills his purposes by overriding their free will. But if God can set aside man’s free will, how can he be just at the same time? Under what special circumstances would God take such drastic action? If a man is forced by God to do or not do something, how will God judge the act? What about the person’s salvation? Is it affected by God’s suspension of the person’s free will? Do good people have to be concerned that God may sometimes remove their freedom to accomplish his purposes?

Fortunately, the Bible gives us enough examples of God’s governmental interference with man’s will to allow us to discover some general principles which apply to such situations. The major examples include: 1) Balaam’s blessing of Israel when he tried to curse (Numbers 22-24). 2) The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 4-14). 3) The placement of fear on the hearts of the Canaanites so they would be destroyed (Deuteronomy 2:25; 11:25). 4) The stirring of Cyrus’ heart to release the Israelites from captivity and to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem (II Chronicles 36:22; Ezra 1:1).6 5) The turning of Nebuchadnezzar’s mind to that of an animal (Daniel 4). There is another interesting example of this in Revelation 17:17. “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose … until the words of God should be fulfilled.”

…..Let’s take a look at five general conditions and then see how those conditions apply to two specific instances—the cursing of Balaam and the altering of Nebuchadnezzar’s mind.

1) The person was always wicked. We never read that God overrode the free will of a righteous person. The Bible only records instances where a wicked person was forced by God to do something other than what he wished. Righteous people will do what God desires when requested, so there is no need for God to coerce the will of a righteous person. Balaam was attempting to curse Israel when God caused him to bless instead. Nebuchadnezzar was an idol worshipper and the captor of the Israelites in Babylon.

2) The suspension of will was temporary. There are no examples of a person whose will was removed for his entire life. Though God “put a word in Balaam’s mouth” so he “had to bless” Israel and “God turned the curse into a blessing,” Balaam then proceeded on his own volition to tempt the Israelites to disobey God. Nebuchadnezzar was altered by God to become like an animal for a time, but God eventually restored his mind to its original state. In the case of Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but only after Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The references to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart reveal an interesting phenomenon—the hardening was not consistent. That is, God did not harden his heart and then it was hardened continually thereafter. Rather, the instances of God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart alternate with Pharaoh’s hardening his own heart, and not in any consistent manner. Thus, it appears as if God only interfered with Pharaoh’s free will when it seemed Pharaoh’s choices might abort the plan of God to free the Israelites from Egypt.

3) The salvation of the person was not affected by God’s temporary overriding of the person’s free choices. Being forced to bless instead of cursing, being forced to free the Israelites from Egypt, becoming afraid of the Israelites, allowing the Israelites to go free from Persia, and becoming an animal temporarily—none of these was directly related to the salvation of the affected individual. In no instance was a wicked person forced to love God. In every case the person’s relationship to God was determined by choices other than those made while under God’s control.

4) The event always related to the salvation of the entire world. That is, God only interfered with someone’s free will when the welfare of the entire human race was at stake. This was always related to the preservation of the nation of Israel so God could fulfill his promise of sending the Messiah to the world. Balaam’s blessing instead of cursing was to preserve the nation. Nebuchadnezzar’s becoming an animal was related to Israel’s preservation and eventual release from captivity.

5) The consequences of the action were suspended. That is, if God made a person do something good, the person was not rewarded for it. If God produced detriment in a person’s life, the situation was subsequently rectified by God. Balaam was not blessed because God made him bless the children of Israel. He was killed with the sword because he was involved in the occult and he tempted Israel to sin. Nebuchadnezzar lost all of his glory and his officials left him, but God restored all Nebuchadnezzar lost and in addition taught him a valuable lesson—God can humble anyone.

So, we have seen God can justly set aside someone’s free will if these conditions are met: 1) The person is not a righteous person. 2) The person’s will is only suspended temporarily. 3) The person’s salvation is not affected by the temporary loss of will. 4) The event has implications for all mankind. 5) The consequences for that particular action are suspended.

Given these five conditions, we can understand how God could accomplish his purposes and fulfill every prophecy, yet without doing injustice to man’s free will. We should remember, too, that these instances were rare exceptions in God’s dealings with men. God’s general rule in his government of free-will agents is to allow them their freedom, even though the consequences may be quite dire at times.”
 
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Clare73

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It is on point, it just doesn't fit in your box.
Sure a lot of failure to engage in a sincere Biblical discussion worthy of the Scriptures going on with a couple of folks here.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Joshua 11:20 is not about Pharaoh, nor did the northern kings harden their own hearts toward Israel.
God hardened them, and then punished them for what their hardened hearts did.

Please stay on point: God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

He did in Joshua 11:20.

“Some people acknowledge only two categories here, either God never interferes with man’s free will (absolute freedom), or God makes man do everything he does (absolute predestination). But are these two extremes the only possibilities? Is it not possible that God follows a general rule of allowing man freedom and yet sets aside that freedom when he deems it necessary and loving to do so? This is the very picture which seems to be portrayed in biblical history. God accomplishes his desires through people, and although the general rule is that God allows them to freely choose to work with him, God sometimes fulfills his purposes by overriding their free will. But if God can set aside man’s free will, how can he be just at the same time? Under what special circumstances would God take such drastic action? If a man is forced by God to do or not do something, how will God judge the act? What about the person’s salvation? Is it affected by God’s suspension of the person’s free will? Do good people have to be concerned that God may sometimes remove their freedom to accomplish his purposes?

Fortunately, the Bible gives us enough examples of God’s governmental interference with man’s will to allow us to discover some general principles which apply to such situations. The major examples include: 1) Balaam’s blessing of Israel when he tried to curse (Numbers 22-24). 2) The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 4-14). 3) The placement of fear on the hearts of the Canaanites so they would be destroyed (Deuteronomy 2:25; 11:25). 4) The stirring of Cyrus’ heart to release the Israelites from captivity and to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem (II Chronicles 36:22; Ezra 1:1).6 5) The turning of Nebuchadnezzar’s mind to that of an animal (Daniel 4). There is another interesting example of this in Revelation 17:17. “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose … until the words of God should be fulfilled.”

…..Let’s take a look at five general conditions and then see how those conditions apply to two specific instances—the cursing of Balaam and the altering of Nebuchadnezzar’s mind.

1) The person was always wicked. We never read that God overrode the free will of a righteous person. The Bible only records instances where a wicked person was forced by God to do something other than what he wished. Righteous people will do what God desires when requested, so there is no need for God to coerce the will of a righteous person. Balaam was attempting to curse Israel when God caused him to bless instead. Nebuchadnezzar was an idol worshipper and the captor of the Israelites in Babylon.

2) The suspension of will was temporary. There are no examples of a person whose will was removed for his entire life. Though God “put a word in Balaam’s mouth” so he “had to bless” Israel and “God turned the curse into a blessing,” Balaam then proceeded on his own volition to tempt the Israelites to disobey God. Nebuchadnezzar was altered by God to become like an animal for a time, but God eventually restored his mind to its original state. In the case of Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but only after Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The references to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart reveal an interesting phenomenon—the hardening was not consistent. That is, God did not harden his heart and then it was hardened continually thereafter. Rather, the instances of God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart alternate with Pharaoh’s hardening his own heart, and not in any consistent manner. Thus, it appears as if God only interfered with Pharaoh’s free will when it seemed Pharaoh’s choices might abort the plan of God to free the Israelites from Egypt.

3) The salvation of the person was not affected by God’s temporary overriding of the person’s free choices. Being forced to bless instead of cursing, being forced to free the Israelites from Egypt, becoming afraid of the Israelites, allowing the Israelites to go free from Persia, and becoming an animal temporarily—none of these was directly related to the salvation of the affected individual. In no instance was a wicked person forced to love God. In every case the person’s relationship to God was determined by choices other than those made while under God’s control.

4) The event always related to the salvation of the entire world. That is, God only interfered with someone’s free will when the welfare of the entire human race was at stake. This was always related to the preservation of the nation of Israel so God could fulfill his promise of sending the Messiah to the world. Balaam’s blessing instead of cursing was to preserve the nation. Nebuchadnezzar’s becoming an animal was related to Israel’s preservation and eventual release from captivity.

5) The consequences of the action were suspended. That is, if God made a person do something good, the person was not rewarded for it. If God produced detriment in a person’s life, the situation was subsequently rectified by God. Balaam was not blessed because God made him bless the children of Israel. He was killed with the sword because he was involved in the occult and he tempted Israel to sin. Nebuchadnezzar lost all of his glory and his officials left him, but God restored all Nebuchadnezzar lost and in addition taught him a valuable lesson—God can humble anyone.

So, we have seen God can justly set aside someone’s free will if these conditions are met: 1) The person is not a righteous person. 2) The person’s will is only suspended temporarily. 3) The person’s salvation is not affected by the temporary loss of will. 4) The event has implications for all mankind. 5) The consequences for that particular action are suspended.

Given these five conditions, we can understand how God could accomplish his purposes and fulfill every prophecy, yet without doing injustice to man’s free will. We should remember, too, that these instances were rare exceptions in God’s dealings with men. God’s general rule in his government of free-will agents is to allow them their freedom, even though the consequences may be quite dire at times.”
 
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Clare73

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I apologize for the length of this....
“Some people acknowledge only two categories here, either God never interferes with man’s free will (absolute freedom), or God makes man do everything he does (absolute predestination). But are these two extremes the only possibilities? Is it not possible that God follows a general rule of allowing man freedom and yet sets aside that freedom when he deems it necessary and loving to do so? This is the very picture which seems to be portrayed in biblical history. God accomplishes his desires through people, and although the general rule is that God allows them to freely choose to work with him, God sometimes fulfills his purposes by overriding their free will. But if God can set aside man’s free will, how can he be just at the same time? Under what special circumstances would God take such drastic action? If a man is forced by God to do or not do something, how will God judge the act? What about the person’s salvation? Is it affected by God’s suspension of the person’s free will? Do good people have to be concerned that God may sometimes remove their freedom to accomplish his purposes?

Fortunately, the Bible gives us enough examples of God’s governmental interference with man’s will to allow us to discover some general principles which apply to such situations. The major examples include: 1) Balaam’s blessing of Israel when he tried to curse (Numbers 22-24). 2) The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 4-14). 3) The placement of fear on the hearts of the Canaanites so they would be destroyed (Deuteronomy 2:25; 11:25). 4) The stirring of Cyrus’ heart to release the Israelites from captivity and to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem (II Chronicles 36:22; Ezra 1:1).6 5) The turning of Nebuchadnezzar’s mind to that of an animal (Daniel 4). There is another interesting example of this in Revelation 17:17. “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose … until the words of God should be fulfilled.”

…..Let’s take a look at five general conditions and then see how those conditions apply to two specific instances—the cursing of Balaam and the altering of Nebuchadnezzar’s mind.

1) The person was always wicked. We never read that God overrode the free will of a righteous person. The Bible only records instances where a wicked person was forced by God to do something other than what he wished. Righteous people will do what God desires when requested, so there is no need for God to coerce the will of a righteous person. Balaam was attempting to curse Israel when God caused him to bless instead. Nebuchadnezzar was an idol worshipper and the captor of the Israelites in Babylon.

2) The suspension of will was temporary. There are no examples of a person whose will was removed for his entire life. Though God “put a word in Balaam’s mouth” so he “had to bless” Israel and “God turned the curse into a blessing,” Balaam then proceeded on his own volition to tempt the Israelites to disobey God. Nebuchadnezzar was altered by God to become like an animal for a time, but God eventually restored his mind to its original state. In the case of Pharaoh, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but only after Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The references to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart reveal an interesting phenomenon—the hardening was not consistent. That is, God did not harden his heart and then it was hardened continually thereafter. Rather, the instances of God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart alternate with Pharaoh’s hardening his own heart, and not in any consistent manner. Thus, it appears as if God only interfered with Pharaoh’s free will when it seemed Pharaoh’s choices might abort the plan of God to free the Israelites from Egypt.

3) The salvation of the person was not affected by God’s temporary overriding of the person’s free choices. Being forced to bless instead of cursing, being forced to free the Israelites from Egypt, becoming afraid of the Israelites, allowing the Israelites to go free from Persia, and becoming an animal temporarily—none of these was directly related to the salvation of the affected individual. In no instance was a wicked person forced to love God. In every case the person’s relationship to God was determined by choices other than those made while under God’s control.

4) The event always related to the salvation of the entire world. That is, God only interfered with someone’s free will when the welfare of the entire human race was at stake. This was always related to the preservation of the nation of Israel so God could fulfill his promise of sending the Messiah to the world. Balaam’s blessing instead of cursing was to preserve the nation. Nebuchadnezzar’s becoming an animal was related to Israel’s preservation and eventual release from captivity.

5) The consequences of the action were suspended. That is, if God made a person do something good, the person was not rewarded for it. If God produced detriment in a person’s life, the situation was subsequently rectified by God. Balaam was not blessed because God made him bless the children of Israel. He was killed with the sword because he was involved in the occult and he tempted Israel to sin. Nebuchadnezzar lost all of his glory and his officials left him, but God restored all Nebuchadnezzar lost and in addition taught him a valuable lesson—God can humble anyone.

So, we have seen God can justly set aside someone’s free will if these conditions are met: 1) The person is not a righteous person. 2) The person’s will is only suspended temporarily. 3) The person’s salvation is not affected by the temporary loss of will. 4) The event has implications for all mankind. 5) The consequences for that particular action are suspended.

Given these five conditions, we can understand how God could accomplish his purposes and fulfill every prophecy, yet without doing injustice to man’s free will. We should remember, too, that these instances were rare exceptions in God’s dealings with men. God’s general rule in his government of free-will agents is to allow them their freedom, even though the consequences may be quite dire at times.”
Apology accepted if you will boil all that down to a conclusion for a clear demonstration of how it relates to the point:

God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do,

as I did with Joshua 11:20.

.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Could you boil that down to a conclusion showing how it relates to the point:

God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

.

The answer is in what I shared. You don't have to read it.
 
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Greg Cheney

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Could you boil that down to a conclusion showing how it relates to the point:

God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

.

And I already answered it and you ignored it. That's ok. Best wishes.
 
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Greg Cheney

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And I already answered it and you ignored it. That's ok. Best wishes.

Last comment - No, I do not believe that God gets mad at someone for what he decreed the person would do, for God's hardening is the result of the person hardening his own heart. God would be angry with the person for hardening his own heart - see post 281. Best wishes.
 
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Clare73

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And I already answered it and you ignored it. That's ok. Best wishes.
Last comment - No, I do not believe that God gets mad at someone for what he decreed the person would do, for God's hardening is the result of the person hardening his own heart. God would be angry with the person for hardening his own heart -
see post 281.
Which volumnous script you cannot bring to a conclusion demonstrating your point, simply asserting that it does so.
Best wishes.
Good idea. . .because Joshua 11:20 demonstrates otherwise, and you have not demonstrated such to be in error.
 
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Which volumnous script you cannot bring to a conclusion demonstrating your point, simply asserting that it does so.
Good idea. . .because Joshua 11:20 demonstrates otherwise, and you have not demonstrated such to be in error.

I have refuted it; you just don't accept it. That's fine with me, but I will give one more attempt.



"God’s will to “harden their hearts,” show them “no mercy” and “destroy them” would be consequent to their own evil deeds."


"God hardens people by strengthening the resolve in their own hearts. Before God hardened Pharoah’s heart, Scripture says, Pharoah had already hardened his own heart. Similarly, long before God hardened the Caananites’ hearts, he had been tolerating their freely chosen wickedness and hardness toward him (cf. Gen. 15:16). The God of unsurpassable love strives with humans to turn toward him, but there is a point where humans become hopeless (Gen. 6:3–8; Rom. 1:24–32). At this point God’s strategy changes from trying to change them to using them in their wickedness for his own providential purposes.

God judges people by hardening them. But it could have been—and God’s wishes it would have been—otherwise."

Refuted. Perhaps not accepted - but refuted.
 
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