Does God predestine sin?

[enoob57]

The Bible is written in an authoritative, not a consultative manner.

God expects us to receive, believe and obey it.
He doesn't consult with us regarding his truth--he's God, we're not.

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

[18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[Clare73]

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

[18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

That does not refer to Scripture. . .that refers to forsaking their sin (Isaiah 1:16).

 

[fhansen]

This is true in a certain perspective and false in another.
The question is the nature of love, the battle to overcome and take on massive variations of the possible to bring about that which is desired.

Philosophers have had a serious problem defining what free will is, because in one sense free will is bound by the possible in any given environment and founded on experience and emotional history.

So does free will exist when we are bound by sin and the world as it is?
Unless we see the light and walk in it, does only free will exist then, but in a sense this will is bounded by the will of the Father and love itself. Paul deals with this by describing sinners being slaves to sin and the righteous slaves to righteousness.

What complicates things is people from very similar situations end up in very different places, which appears to be as a result of their choices. With this backdrop the Lord uses everything for His own ends and for His purposes. In a sense the lost will always be lost, so everything hinges on the good fruit and helping it grow and develop into eternity. Sin is the dark side of choices, and when shown in the light of grace and love is put into perspective. Therefore God does not bring sin into peoples lives, but He will and does convict and show the way of the light, as a way of resolution. Jesus said those forgiven much are more grateful, but gratefulness is not the objective.

Yes, the church has historically taught that God can use for good that which man intended for evil, to bring an even greater good out of it at the end of the day. But either way the bottom line question for me regarding free will is this: is a person, having reached the age of reason and possessing a sound mind, a morally accountable being? Do most people have sufficient freedom and understanding to make them responsible for their actions? And I would maintain that the answer is a resounding yes. And we have that very attitude when we address wrong-doing even in civil matters-or when we possess and express moral outrage at injustices committed.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Yes, the church has historically taught that God can use for good that which man intended for evil, to bring an even greater good out of it at the end of the day. But either way the bottom line question for me regarding free will is this: is a person, having reached the age of reason and possessing a sound mind, a morally accountable being? Do most people have sufficient freedom and understanding to make them responsible for their actions? And I would maintain that the answer is a resounding yes. And we have that very attitude when we address wrong-doing even in civil matters-or when we possess and express moral outrage at injustices committed.

I think you are right sinners are morally responsible for their sin, but the answer to this prison is Jesus, which is a key few seem capable of taking on board what that means.

Our prisons are full of people with none sound minds, often learning difficulties and social missfits without any prospects. It is always possible to say their whole lives are meaningless, especially if their parents are too dysfunctional and their social group looks for excuses to miss behave rather than work towards a meaningful goal.

I met a guy on the streets of London who had lived with his mum. He did not have a job, was unlikely to get one, so in his stupidity got a gun and held up a jewellery store. He was put in prison for 7 years. When I met him he was on the streets. If you are talking about futures or roles, what role does he fit into or sense of meaning can he achieve?

In our wealthy society often it is people in his situation we overlook or dismiss, though there are things they can contribute, it is not clear if we have the ability to solve this problem.

God bless you

 

[fhansen]

I think you are right sinners are morally responsible for their sin, but the answer to this prison is Jesus, which is a key few seem capable of taking on board what that means.

Our prisons are full of people with none sound minds, often learning difficulties and social missfits without any prospects. It is always possible to say their whole lives are meaningless, especially if their parents are too dysfunctional and their social group looks for excuses to miss behave rather than work towards a meaningful goal.

I met a guy on the streets of London who had lived with his mum. He did not have a job, was unlikely to get one, so in his stupidity got a gun and held up a jewellery store. He was put in prison for 7 years. When I met him he was on the streets. If you are talking about futures or roles, what role does he fit into or sense of meaning can he achieve?

In our wealthy society often it is people in his situation we overlook or dismiss, though there are things they can contribute, it is not clear if we have the ability to solve this problem.

God bless you

Yes, and there are lots of stories like his. As I see it, God is infinitely just and fair and will judge on our capabilities, backgrounds, etc, with more expected of those given more (Luke 12:48). Plenty of people would be quite culpable for their sin, with others less so, for the same sin.

 

[TedT]

So does free will exist when we are bound by sin and the world as it is?

I don't think so or Christ's words about our enslavement to in are nothing more than babble...

Therefore God does not bring sin into peoples lives,

Ummmm, TELL THAT TO EVE, EH?

 

[LightLoveHope]

I don't think so or Christ's words about our enslavement to in are nothing more than babble...

Ummmm, TELL THAT TO EVE, EH?

Your approach is interesting, because it suggests exploring the concept of what is sin and what is righteousness. Over the years I have pondered on the Adam and Eve story and its context and meaning.

Adam and Eve were not self aware like we are. They relied upon God to tell them what is right and wrong. So their choice about the fruit was a choice of trust. Did God tell the truth they would die if they ate from the tree or would it give them freedom? They could not go the next step and realise the freedom they gained doomed them to die. But as they did not have the knowledge of right and wrong, they could not know this possibility. They chose death over trust.

Some will say I am wrong, because Adam and Eve were perfect, without sin. But this ignores the point about the fruit of the tree of knowledge would provide them with something they did not have, the ability to see both right and wrong.

The fruit of self awareness was the understanding of vulnerability and nakedness, which brought shame to them so they hid. So the Lord asks who told you you were naked? We are given the image that self awareness is a God status. What complicates this further is the statement, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

In context surely the angels equally know good and evil, because Satan in his rebellion chose evil. It maybe angels perceive things differently?

With predestination, God knew Eve would cause Adam to fall. The nature of choice and knowledge is we desire to grasp it and be able to choose. God wanted man to be able to choose within fellowship with himself, but it appears this was only possible through first rebelling and becoming independent. You could argue each parent has this issue with the teenage children, pushing away to discover themselves, and choosing to come back or cut ties forever. Now as parents we know this is the price of parenthood yet are prepared to take the risk.

If you want love to work, there needs to be choice to go deeper or pull away and put up obstacles. Equally being trapped in the consequences of ones relationship choices is part of how love works. So slavery and choice do go hand in hand.

God bless you

 

[TedT]

Adam and Eve were not self aware like we are. They relied upon God to tell them what is right and wrong.

I find these two sentences to be very confusing. What makes you think they had no self awareness and how does that mean they had to be taught right and wrong...? It sort of implies that we don't have to be
taught because we are self aware??

But this ignores the point about the fruit of the tree of knowledge would provide them with something they did not have, the ability to see both right and wrong.

If they did not understand about right and wrong, good and bad, then how can they have been judged for not keeping the command? Their living under the curse surely implies they were guilty of choosing evil as the concept of mens rea, the need for a guilty intent before a law can be broken and and sanctions applied instructs us.

The accidental breaking of a law or by a misunderstanding of the necessities of a law surely should result in a teaching moment to bring them up to speed about what the command meant etc, and not a curse for their whole life.

ImCo, the judgement against them implies they understood well enough what a command meant and understood what the natural and legal consequences were and chose to proceed against the command anyway.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I find these two sentences to be very confusing. What makes you think they had no self awareness and how does that mean they had to be taught right and wrong...? It sort of implies that we don't have to be
taught because we are self aware??



If they did not understand about right and wrong, good and bad, then how can they have been judged for not keeping the command? Their living under the curse surely implies they were guilty of choosing evil as the concept of mens rea, the need for a guilty intent before a law can be broken and and sanctions applied instructs us.

The accidental breaking of a law or by a misunderstanding of the necessities of a law surely should result in a teaching moment to bring them up to speed about what the command meant etc, and not a curse for their whole life.

ImCo, the judgement against them implies they understood well enough what a command meant and understood what the natural and legal consequences were and chose to proceed against the command anyway.

Interesting question - what is self awareness?

Self awareness is the ability to step outside oneself and see ones interactions as a 3rd party. It means objectifying a situation and running different scenarios.

Imagine what is the meaning of the knowledge of good and evil? In essence this is the ability to know something does harm to another or helps them. You can then attach value or morality to the actions.
Adam and Eve were not taught right and wrong, they were told that is wrong. So eating from the tree of knowledge will lead to their death. It is was not put in terms of it is wrong to do this, but doing it would cause them to die.

And the story of Adam and Eve is telling us we innately know what is right and wrong. If you look at how children grow and develop they have a strong moral basis for interacting with others, which is not taught but inbuilt.

My position on this is not confusing but clearly defined. I am happy to change this view if another position can be clarified but Adam and Eve seem clear. They were not aware they were naked, but after gaining self awareness they knew they were.

God bless you

 

[TedT]

They were not aware they were naked, but after gaining self awareness they knew they were.

This does not answer why they were ashamed of being as GOD made them in the privacy of their own garden. Are we Puritans who define natural nudity as sinful or Gnostics to define the physical as sinful? Shame denotes wrongdoing. We are not ashamed of doing good deeds nor even of doing morally neutral things...we are ashamed of sinning and being convicted of sin, so, without sin there is no shame.

Remember the purpose of the law:
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. And such awareness causes shame so why were they ashamed of being naked but not of eating unless being naked, `rm, is a metaphor for being sinful.

1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc. If they were innocent this verse contends that they had no need to be commanded.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Interesting question - what is self awareness?

Self awareness is the ability to step outside oneself and see ones interactions as a 3rd party. It means objectifying a situation and running different scenarios.

Imagine what is the meaning of the knowledge of good and evil? In essence this is the ability to know something does harm to another or helps them. You can then attach value or morality to the actions.
Adam and Eve were not taught right and wrong, they were told that is wrong. So eating from the tree of knowledge will lead to their death. It is was not put in terms of it is wrong to do this, but doing it would cause them to die.

And the story of Adam and Eve is telling us we innately know what is right and wrong. If you look at how children grow and develop they have a strong moral basis for interacting with others, which is not taught but inbuilt.

My position on this is not confusing but clearly defined. I am happy to change this view if another position can be clarified but Adam and Eve seem clear. They were not aware they were naked, but after gaining self awareness they knew they were.

God bless you

You made several good point, I would say what is being left out in these post on this subject is the conscious. Every person has one and as been stated Adam and Eve both had been told by God not to eat of the tree of knowledge, which they did and then heard the Lord walking in the garden, His warning to them and conscious I believe told both they had done wrong. The same from that time on, even before the law the conscious is the guide to show every being something is wrong. They have been told from birth the do's and the don'ts, even little children demonstrate this from a very young age. I believe that was Paul point when he said the Gentile were a law unto themselves. Rom 2:14 “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:” I do not see the word conscience being translated in the OT but several of the newer translations use it in several places, such as NAS 1 Sam 24:5 It came about afterward that David’s conscience bothered him because he had cut off the edge of Saul’s robe. Holman Bible Afterward, David’s conscience bothered him because he had cut off the corner of Saul’s robe. There are other but they can easily be found. Whereas the NT has conscious many times, such as I mentioned above in Rom 2:14 again I put this in context: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 17Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God. This word conscious is worthy of being studied in each of its uses, one can google this "where is the conscious mentioned in the bible, What Is a Conscience? ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]) this should let anyone interested show where it is used, I found mine on another site but am sure this will be interesting and a learning experience. At least, in a men's study class it was well received, I had told them I don't recall every hearing someone before that had brought up this study on the conscious. See what you think, and as the word says, let your conscience be your guide. Something to consider: A seared conscious would lead to this outcome, what is the outcome of a seared conscience?

 

[Bob corrigan]

Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God is the author (Isaiah 45:7) does he use sin of the righteous to bring us closer to him? (Romans 8:28) we know that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will? (Genesis 50:20)

 

[Bob corrigan]

What a great question! It is the best question I have come across in many, many years. What I really appreciate is the fact that you are aware of and acknowledge God's sovereignty. The only way to truly understand all of Scripture is to first learn and understand that God is sovereign over everything in His universe and everything operates from out of God's sovereignty.
Dan 4:35, Psalm 115:3, 135:6, Eph 1:11. Most people don't like or want to acknowledge sovereignty, choosing to use lame phrases, such as "God is in control," or "God allows..."

Did God predestine sin? I look at it this way. I would say that God predestined mankind to sin. Adam was definitely created with a sinful nature, which was passed onto Eve, being she was created from Adam's substance. I believe that man's sinful nature is embedded in the DNA, starting with Adam.

Most people think that man has free will and that man's will is the most powerful force in the
universe and able to withstand and overpower God's will. That God will never do anything against a person's free will. That man's will prevents God from acting.

Dan 4:35 And all of the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and God does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand...

Rom 9:19, Thou will then say unto me, why does God yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?

Another thing people want to ignore is that God does according to His will, in all things.
Ex 10:1 And the LORD said to Moses...for I have hardened his heart and the heart of His servants.

Deut 2:30
Jousha 11:20, For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts...

Judg 14:4, But his father and mother did not know it was of the LORD...

Psa 105:25, He turned their heart to hate His people...

Pro 16:9, A man's heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water, He turns it whichever way He purposes it goes.
1Kings 12:1-15, vs 15 Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people, for the cause was from the LORD.

Rev 17:17 For God had put it in their hearts to fulfill His will...

 

[TedT]

Did God predestine sin? I look at it this way. I would say that God predestined mankind to sin. Adam was definitely created with a sinful nature, which was passed onto Eve, being she was created from Adam's substance. I believe that man's sinful nature is embedded in the DNA, starting with Adam.

I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

This implies that GOD would never not save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, not for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.

Light cannot create darkness.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.