Does God predestine sin?

[ViaCrucis]

I agree with your first comment and disagree with the second. I believe Christ is God's elect person and that we enter the elect body (all who would be connected to Christ) by submitting to Christ. We can be severed from the elect body through unbelief (Romans 11). That is my understanding.

How does one submit to Christ without faith? And it sounds like you're saying that we are saved by our works, as "submitting to Christ" is work.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[enoob57]

Please show how God using the evil objects of his wrath to make the riches of his glory known is not God using (giving place to) evil in Romans 9:23.

The Cross is the best example of God giving no place to evil... all that came against Jesus was lie and physical and mental torture... yet His Response was only of love and forgiveness proving He was God:

1 John 4:8 (KJV)
[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Luke 6:27-35 (KJV)
[27] But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
[28] Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
[29] And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
[30] Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
[31] And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
[32] For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
[33] And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
[34] And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
[35] But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
This is how God gives no place to evil... for there is no evil in Him!

Please show how God hardening the hearts of the evil northern kings so that he might destroy them is not God using (giving place to) evil in Joshua 11:20.

Because you do not understand God has made us in His Image and no one has told God how to be- so also His image... no one tells me to be a certain way I am because I have chosen this out of my own resource.... because you have reasoned incorrectly with free will your view of Scripture also becomes distorted _no heart in Scripture is first hardened by God but God has sealed already hardened hearts!

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[enoob57]

Please yourself. I'm not going to continue to repeat myself with him or anyone else.

I have as yet not seen any answer but the one I chided you on .... and only then because it had no substance to evaluate anything on...

 

[enoob57]

Please stay on point: God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

This is very inconsistent with your systematic of calvinism... people in hell will be under God's eternal wrath for exactly what God chose for them to be!

 

[Clare73]

This is how God gives no place to evil... for there is no evil in Him!

Please show how God using the evil objects of his wrath to make the riches of his glory known is not God using (giving place to) evil in Romans 9:23.

Please show how God hardening the hearts of the evil northern kings so that he might destroy them is not God using (giving place to) evil in Joshua 11:20.

Because you do not understand God has made us in His Image and no one has told God how to be- so also His image... no one tells me to be a certain way I am because I have chosen this out of my own resource.... because you have reasoned incorrectly with free will your view of Scripture also becomes distorted _no heart in Scripture is first hardened by God but God has sealed already hardened hearts!

Non-responsive. . .

 

[Clare73]

This is very inconsistent with your systematic of calvinism... people in hell will be under God's eternal wrath for exactly what God chose for them to be!

I claim no adherence to any "systematic of calvinism."

The issue was:

God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do,

which I demonstrated that he does (Joshua 11:20).

Non-responsive to Joshua 11:20.

 

[enoob57]

Non-responsive to Joshua 11:20.

This is mostly the direction of non-calvinist persuasion
a quote from Bible knowledge commantary:

This also informative from a Calvinist perspective Bob Utley:

 

[Clare73]

The point is:

God does not get angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

He did in Joshua 11:20.

This is mostly the direction of non-calvinist persuasion
a quote from Bible knowledge commantary:
View attachment 317786
This also informative from a Calvinist perspective Bob Utley:View attachment 317787

Thanks, but non-responsive to the point.

 

[enoob57]

Thanks, but non-responsive to the point.

I'll tell em !

 

[Clare73]

I'll tell em !

There is no reason they would be addressing the point of God getting angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

 

[enoob57]

There is no reason they would be addressing the point of God getting angry at people for doing what he decreed they would do.

That is exactly why EDD is irrational...

 

[Hawkins]

This implies that GOD knew who would end in hell before He created them BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY! This contradiction must be reconciled by a redefinition of HIS being all knowing, the pagan Greek definition of omniscience that the early church appropriated (GOD knows all that can be known from all time past to all time future.) is faulty.

That's actually how free will works, and it is an absolute requirement in order for a Heaven to be built. It is also a logical-mathematical result. Entities of free will are given the choice either to be with God by abiding by the requirement set forth as Law or covenants or to not be with God by breaking them. That's what free will actually is, that is, entities are given the choice to be with or to be against God.

That's how everything works on a fair basis, whether God has the ability to know beforehand is almost irrelevant. Just like each and every creation (say, in a factory), the manufacturer's duty is to identify the out-of-quality items and separate them from the good items. That's how things are produced. Whether you know beforehand the percentage of each group of items is irrelevant. Unlike items, each entity does have a choice.

 

[Clare73]

That is exactly why EDD is irrational...

EDD?

Biblical truth does not depend on what men consider "rational" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's actually how free will works, and it is an absolute requirement in order for a Heaven to be built. It is also a logical-mathematical result. Entities of free will are given the choice either to be with God (by abiding by the requirement set forth as Law or covenants or to not be with God by breaking them). That's what free will actually is, that is, entities are given the choice to be or to be against God.

That's how everything works on a fair basis, whether God has the ability to know beforehand is almost irrelevant. Just like each and every creation (say, in a factory), the manufacturer's duty is to identify the out-of-quality items and separate them from the good items. That's how things are produced. Whether you know beforehand the percentage of each group of items is irrelevant. Unlike items, each entity does have a choice.

Gotcha! If I understand you, salvation is simply a matter of obedience to God's Law(s).

 

[Hawkins]

Gotcha! If I understand you, salvation is simply a matter of obedience to God's Law(s).

Sorry, you got it wrong!

Law is set up for both angels and humans to obey. It is a necessity for a judgment to follow the Law established. Under this Judgment by Law, 2/3 angels will pass and enter the final heaven (which is called New Earth and New Heaven in the book of Revelation). By the same Judgment of Law, no human can make it to heaven, mainly due to the fact that the 1/3 bad/fallen angels can have an influence on humans. Since these 1/3 angels are much more capable and intelligent, all mankind is kept captive by them (as led by Satan).

God, on the other hand, provides human salvation through Jesus Christ, such that through Law we are dead but through Jesus, we will live.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sorry, you got it wrong!

Law is set up for both angels and humans to obey. It is a necessity for a judgment to follow the Law established. Under this Judgment by Law, 2/3 angels will pass and enter the final heaven (which is called New Earth and New Heaven in the book of Revelation). By the same Judgment of Law, no human can make it to heaven, mainly due to the fact that the 1/3 bad/fallen angels can have an influence on humans. Since these 1/3 angels are much more capable and intelligent, all mankind is kept captive by them (as led by Satan).

God, on the other hand, provides human salvation through Jesus Christ, such that through Law we are dead but through Jesus, we will live.

Curiously, I am unaware of the 2/3 vs 1/3 ratio of angels/demons. Do you have scripture which spells out this ratio?

You posted the following:

Entities of free will are given the choice either to be with God (by abiding by the requirement set forth as Law or covenants or to not be with God by breaking them). That's what free will actually is, that is, entities are given the choice to be or to be against God.

I am confused here. Do you believe that abiding by the requirement set forth as Law or covenants is not necessary for salvation?

 

[enoob57]

EDD?

Biblical truth does not depend on what men consider "rational" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

exhaustive divine determinism
The Bible is written in a rational manner... God expects us to reason with Him about soteriological matters

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

[18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[Clare73]

exhaustive divine determinism
The Bible is written in a rational manner... God expects us to reason with Him about soteriological matters.

The Bible is written in an authoritative, not a consultative manner.

God expects us to receive, believe and obey it.
He doesn't consult with us regarding his truth--he's God, we're not.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God is the author (Isaiah 45:7) does he use sin of the righteous to bring us closer to him? (Romans 8:28) we know that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will? (Genesis 50:20)

This is true in a certain perspective and false in another.
The question is the nature of love, the battle to overcome and take on massive variations of the possible to bring about that which is desired.

Philosophers have had a serious problem defining what free will is, because in one sense free will is bound by the possible in any given environment and founded on experience and emotional history.

So does free will exist when we are bound by sin and the world as it is?
Unless we see the light and walk in it, does only free will exist then, but in a sense this will is bounded by the will of the Father and love itself. Paul deals with this by describing sinners being slaves to sin and the righteous slaves to righteousness.

What complicates things is people from very similar situations end up in very different places, which appears to be as a result of their choices. With this backdrop the Lord uses everything for His own ends and for His purposes. In a sense the lost will always be lost, so everything hinges on the good fruit and helping it grow and develop into eternity. Sin is the dark side of choices, and when shown in the light of grace and love is put into perspective. Therefore God does not bring sin into peoples lives, but He will and does convict and show the way of the light, as a way of resolution. Jesus said those forgiven much are more grateful, but gratefulness is not the objective.