Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

[tdidymas]

TD

Agree However the issue....has never been that God is working, or is the source, or initiator....The question is does He do it without us yielding.

How am I making that academic if it was through my own experience...[/QUOTE]
My point is that yielding to God is a result of God working, not a cause. If a person in their natural state is dead spiritually in sin as Paul declares in Eph. 2, then to claim that a person chooses to believe in that dead state before they are born again, is like saying a person chooses to exist before they exist. To claim that we yield before God works is like saying we obey before obeying. To deny that our yielding is the work of God is like saying we are righteous before we are righteous. It doesn't follow the logic laid out to us by the apostle Paul. I take it you think you understand your experience, but we must define our experience by what the Bible teaches us, not how we reason it out. The Bible is revelation from God, and that is what we must trust, and not our own natural reasoning. James 1:18 says "He chose to regenerate us..." not "we chose." Therefore, we yield after God works, not before.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I disagree...because an analogy is not always talking about the real thing...it may be use to compare a particular point about the real thing to help understand a concept.

As I already address I was not speaking of being saved from the dark. And still considered the post's question. By asking you to give me a passage in scripture that says a person who is seperated from God can never cry out to Him.


The saving I said I was specifically talking about was when you come to know what it is you really have in Christ.

As is is written :
John 5:
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Recall He gave the right to become sons of God.
So it is not merely looking to the son...which in my opinion allows us to be brought into the light [saved from darkness]

But who you trust after believing who He is.
For this is the will of God that everyone who looks to the son and believes will have life and be raised on the last day.

For one can be in the light and not walk in the light which then will not transform any of our hearts, nor grow if we do not continue to obey.

But this is the saving that is closest related to the relationship with God which is eternal life in and of itself.

For faith is also Generated when you know what you have, that is one reason why we must remain in Him. For it is impossible to please Him without faith.

The faith that works by love

James 1:18 says "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures." Why do you suppose he leaves out our will in this statement? It says "His will," not "our will."

John 1:12-13 says "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Notice these observations:
1. Not of the will of man
2. But born of God
3. God gives the right to become His children
The clear implications are these:
1. We don't choose to be born again
2. God chooses us to be born again
3. We don't take the right to be God's children, since it is a gift
Therefore, the willingness to receive Christ requires faith, and that faith arises out of God's working of regeneration. These are spiritual truths understood in the spiritual dimension, and is not understood or accepted by mere natural reasoning.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Show me this passage in the kjv

"Faith alone is enough for justification, since Paul wrote that we are justified by faith in Christ. "

Rom. 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"
Notice it doesn't say we have peace with the addition of anything else. It says we have access to the grace of God and rejoice in the hope that is in Christ, and is not adding anything else to the exercise of faith. Of course, to understand this we have to define faith as the Bible defines it, not as the popular culture defines it.

Rom. 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
The term "freely" is "dōrean" which means gift. Other versions render it "as a gift." Therefore, justification (along with everything else that is the gift of salvation that God gives us) is a free gift of God, meaning it requires no work or effort from us. It's not the reward of good deeds or right choices done by us.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I think I see the ideal you hold....
And that goes back to this question and I may use a "defective" analogy (smile)

Not that I see any of it still as being called academic [mind only]

Here it is My sis is Fat the doctors say if she doesnt lose weight she will die. I SEE SHE'S IN NEED AND BRING TO HER A GIFT, SOMETHING I ALREADY HAD. I GIVE HER, HER SALVATION, The top of the line unbreakable TREAD MILL.

NOW WILL IT HELP TO DELIVER HER FROM BEING FAT IF SHE DOESN'T WORK OUT ON IT?....WILL SHE " WORK OUT HER SALVATION" The salvation is Christ's Life

SO now MAYBE THEN YOU can SEE
GALATIANS 2:16 KJV.....as the faith or faithful of Jesus.....

Don't get confused by KJV language. Gal. 2:16 is not saying "faith of Jesus" as if it is Jesus exercising faith. It means we exercise faith in Christ based on the gospel message.
1. "the faith" = the set of doctrines taught by Christ and the apostles
2. "of Jesus" = regarding Christ

So then, spiritual salvation is not like your analogy. If that were so, then salvation is obtained by working works, which is completely contrary to what Paul taught. Salvation is a free gift from God. Rom. 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Phil 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Note it says "it is God which worketh." It means that we are to work out in our lives what God has already worked in us. The cause is God working, and the result is us working it out (if we want to experience satisfying peace).

The question or statement I presented in an earlier post....You must try it on...[is it the faithfulness or faith of Jesus/ or faith in Jesus?

We believe in order to be justified by the faith or faithfulness of Jesus; But How?
When we work out what we Have been Given. JESUS IS THE SOURCE OF SALVATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS IS STILL THE WAY.

As the treadmill will always be around and is equipped to hold her weight....

So can we come to be justified,made right with God, by His faithfulness or faith.

I already tried that on, and it doesn't fit in the context of Paul's teaching.

Rom. 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name" (KJV), "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations" (ESV).
I'd like to focus on the phrase "obedience to the faith" rendered in the KJV, which is not a correct rendering, since the Greek phrase is "eis hupakoen pisteos" which other versions have the correct rendering "the obedience of faith." This means that faith in Christ is the obedience he is talking about. That is, faith is the obedience.

And since faith is the obedience to the gospel message, it is that righteousness that justifies us in the sight of God. Faith is what makes us in right standing with God, that is, full acceptance. Of course, it is faith in Christ.

Therefore, to claim that we believe before being born again is to claim that we are righteous before we are righteous. It's to claim that we're able to perform a righteous act, that is, to choose to believe, before we believe and before we are made righteous.

Since we didn't choose to be created before we were created, we didn't choose to become a new spiritual creation before we were spiritually created. Our choices to yield to God are the effect of God's working, and this is what pleases Him, just as He said after He chose to create us in the beginning, that it was "very good." It was by His will, and for His pleasure that we were created, and it is by His will and for His pleasure that we are recreated.

JESUS THE christ... is faithful because He proved He was God...He resurrected and lives forever to INTERCEED for those who come to Him. He can not self destruct because He lives off Himself.

Therefore we must Eat from Him to live.
And so you see He never stops being what is behind Him creating....all thing are made by Him...Even things that must learn to yield to Him.

If what Paul says is true in Rom. 3:10-18 about the true condition of men's souls, then yielding can only come after spiritual rebirth.
TD

 

[bling]

Agree However the issue....has never been that God is working, or is the source, or initiator....The question is does He do it without us yielding.

How am I making that academic if it was through my own experience...
My point is that yielding to God is a result of God working, not a cause. If a person in their natural state is dead spiritually in sin as Paul declares in Eph. 2, then to claim that a person chooses to believe in that dead state before they are born again, is like saying a person chooses to exist before they exist. To claim that we yield before God works is like saying we obey before obeying. To deny that our yielding is the work of God is like saying we are righteous before we are righteous. It doesn't follow the logic laid out to us by the apostle Paul. I take it you think you understand your experience, but we must define our experience by what the Bible teaches us, not how we reason it out. The Bible is revelation from God, and that is what we must trust, and not our own natural reasoning. James 1:18 says "He chose to regenerate us..." not "we chose." Therefore, we yield after God works, not before.
TD

God obligates Himself to be fair, just and Loving with all humans, since this is the way He describes Himself.

What would you think of a rescuer who could just as easily and safely save everyone, but knowingly will only save a few? God is not like such a person, since God saves everyone willing to accept His help. Those who refuse God’s Love, charity, mercy, grace and forgiveness would not like to be in heaven, since there is only Godly type Love (charity) which they do not like.

What do you see as man’s earthly objective and remember you can take any Biblical command and say “ This is man’s objective” and have Biblical support for it?

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time yet:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).





If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

 

[Hammster]

God obligates Himself to be fair, just and Loving with all humans, since this is the way He describes Himself.

Where?

 

[corinth77777]

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That scripture is correct! But your interpretation and mine differ.

For we are not Justified by our works, we are Justified by His work, His Faith or faithfulness. And Abraham was Justified for things in this Life before God. AND WHAT WAS HE JUSTIFIED FOR? BECAUSE He believed God could give Him a son.

The question is..How are we justified b4 God today? And that is by the Faith or faithfulness of His son, as we eat of Him, as we abide in Him...as we live our His life, as we Walk by the Spirit.

For: if we walk by the spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

CHRIST JESUS IS THE SOURCE OF SALVATION....HE IS THE WAY, HE IS THE DOOR. THAT IS WHY LIFE IS SAID TO BE IN HIS SON.

SO WHEN WE PURIFY OURSELVES BY THE WORD[THE SOURCE] GOD CAN THAN SHARE HIS LIFE. FOR GOD IS LIFE AND THE LIFE GIVER.

 

[corinth77777]

Agree However the issue....has never been that God is working, or is the source, or initiator....The question is does He do it without us yielding.

How am I making that academic if it was through my own experience...

My point is that yielding to God is a result of God working, not a cause. If a person in their natural state is dead spiritually in sin as Paul declares in Eph. 2, then to claim that a person chooses to believe in that dead state before they are born again, is like saying a person chooses to exist before they exist. To claim that we yield before God works is like saying we obey before obeying. To deny that our yielding is the work of God is like saying we are righteous before we are righteous. It doesn't follow the logic laid out to us by the apostle Paul. I take it you think you understand your experience, but we must define our experience by what the Bible teaches us, not how we reason it out. The Bible is revelation from God, and that is what we must trust, and not our own natural reasoning. James 1:18 says "He chose to regenerate us..." not "we chose." Therefore, we yield after God works, not before.
TD[/QUOTE]
Gotcha

 

[corinth77777]

James 1:18 says "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures." Why do you suppose he leaves out our will in this statement? It says "His will," not "our will."

John 1:12-13 says "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Notice these observations:
1. Not of the will of man
2. But born of God
3. God gives the right to become His children
The clear implications are these:
1. We don't choose to be born again
2. God chooses us to be born again
3. We don't take the right to be God's children, since it is a gift
Therefore, the willingness to receive Christ requires faith, and that faith arises out of God's working of regeneration. These are spiritual truths understood in the spiritual dimension, and is not understood or accepted by mere natural reasoning.
TD

For the sake of argument:
Did God create people with a DNA to need Him?
For argument sake can someone fall into His will outside of being in Christ.

For example A woman's will may be that all the dishes are clean. SHE DOES NOT ASKED ANYONE TO DO THE DISHES. BUT THERE IS A PILE OF DIRTY DISHES IN THE SINK. HER SON COMES HOME AND DOES THE DISHES.
HAS HIS ACTIVITY FALLEN INTO THE WOMANS WILL?

AND THEREFORE IS IT POSSIBLE THAT GOD DRAWS THOSE PEOPLE IN?

DOES THAT MAKE THAT PERSON STILL DEAD OF NOT KNOWING HER WILL? YES

 

[corinth77777]

Rom. 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"
Notice it doesn't say we have peace with the addition of anything else. It says we have access to the grace of God and rejoice in the hope that is in Christ, and is not adding anything else to the exercise of faith. Of course, to understand this we have to define faith as the Bible defines it, not as the popular culture defines it.

Rom. 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
The term "freely" is "dōrean" which means gift. Other versions render it "as a gift." Therefore, justification (along with everything else that is the gift of salvation that God gives us) is a free gift of God, meaning it requires no work or effort from us. It's not the reward of good deeds or right choices done by us.
TD

The faith that saves is never alone.
Just as Noah's ark was faithful in saving those who got in it. ALONE IT SAVES no one!

 

[corinth77777]

Don't get confused by KJV language. Gal. 2:16 is not saying "faith of Jesus" as if it is Jesus exercising faith. It means we exercise faith in Christ based on the gospel message.
1. "the faith" = the set of doctrines taught by Christ and the apostles
2. "of Jesus" = regarding Christ

So then, spiritual salvation is not like your analogy. If that were so, then salvation is obtained by working works, which is completely contrary to what Paul taught. Salvation is a free gift from God. Rom. 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Phil 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Note it says "it is God which worketh." It means that we are to work out in our lives what God has already worked in us. The cause is God working, and the result is us working it out (if we want to experience satisfying peace).


I already tried that on, and it doesn't fit in the context of Paul's teaching.

Rom. 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name" (KJV), "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations" (ESV).
I'd like to focus on the phrase "obedience to the faith" rendered in the KJV, which is not a correct rendering, since the Greek phrase is "eis hupakoen pisteos" which other versions have the correct rendering "the obedience of faith." This means that faith in Christ is the obedience he is talking about. That is, faith is the obedience.

And since faith is the obedience to the gospel message, it is that righteousness that justifies us in the sight of God. Faith is what makes us in right standing with God, that is, full acceptance. Of course, it is faith in Christ.

Therefore, to claim that we believe before being born again is to claim that we are righteous before we are righteous. It's to claim that we're able to perform a righteous act, that is, to choose to believe, before we believe and before we are made righteous.

Since we didn't choose to be created before we were created, we didn't choose to become a new spiritual creation before we were spiritually created. Our choices to yield to God are the effect of God's working, and this is what pleases Him, just as He said after He chose to create us in the beginning, that it was "very good." It was by His will, and for His pleasure that we were created, and it is by His will and for His pleasure that we are recreated.



If what Paul says is true in Rom. 3:10-18 about the true condition of men's souls, then yielding can only come after spiritual rebirth.
TD

Hopefully my previous responses have answered for you...but I'll respond anyway

 

[bling]

Where?

I said “this is the way He describes Himself”.



Jesus says:

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

John 14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

John 8:19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?” “You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

So, first and foremost we look at Jesus to see the father, so was Jesus fair, just and Loving to all humans?

Jesus is the Word of God.

We know 1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

Every promise God makes to man, obligates God.

 

[corinth77777]

Don't get confused by KJV language. Gal. 2:16 is not saying "faith of Jesus" as if it is Jesus exercising faith. It means we exercise faith in Christ based on the gospel message.
1. "the faith" = the set of doctrines taught by Christ and the apostles
2. "of Jesus" = regarding Christ

So then, spiritual salvation is not like your analogy. If that were so, then salvation is obtained by working works, which is completely contrary to what Paul taught. Salvation is a free gift from God. Rom. 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Phil 2:12-13 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Note it says "it is God which worketh." It means that we are to work out in our lives what God has already worked in us. The cause is God working, and the result is us working it out (if we want to experience satisfying peace).


I already tried that on, and it doesn't fit in the context of Paul's teaching.

Rom. 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name" (KJV), "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations" (ESV).
I'd like to focus on the phrase "obedience to the faith" rendered in the KJV, which is not a correct rendering, since the Greek phrase is "eis hupakoen pisteos" which other versions have the correct rendering "the obedience of faith." This means that faith in Christ is the obedience he is talking about. That is, faith is the obedience.

And since faith is the obedience to the gospel message, it is that righteousness that justifies us in the sight of God. Faith is what makes us in right standing with God, that is, full acceptance. Of course, it is faith in Christ.

Therefore, to claim that we believe before being born again is to claim that we are righteous before we are righteous. It's to claim that we're able to perform a righteous act, that is, to choose to believe, before we believe and before we are made righteous.

Since we didn't choose to be created before we were created, we didn't choose to become a new spiritual creation before we were spiritually created. Our choices to yield to God are the effect of God's working, and this is what pleases Him, just as He said after He chose to create us in the beginning, that it was "very good." It was by His will, and for His pleasure that we were created, and it is by His will and for His pleasure that we are recreated.



If what Paul says is true in Rom. 3:10-18 about the true condition of men's souls, then yielding can only come after spiritual rebirth.
TD

We can agree that God is the force behind it all.
But the opposite of grace is works not effort

 

[Hammster]

That scripture is correct! But your interpretation and mine differ.

For we are not Justified by our works, we are Justified by His work, His Faith or faithfulness. And Abraham was Justified for things in this Life before God. AND WHAT WAS HE JUSTIFIED FOR? BECAUSE He believed God could give Him a son.

The question is..How are we justified b4 God today? And that is by the Faith or faithfulness of His son, as we eat of Him, as we abide in Him...as we live our His life, as we Walk by the Spirit.

For: if we walk by the spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

CHRIST JESUS IS THE SOURCE OF SALVATION....HE IS THE WAY, HE IS THE DOOR. THAT IS WHY LIFE IS SAID TO BE IN HIS SON.

SO WHEN WE PURIFY OURSELVES BY THE WORD[THE SOURCE] GOD CAN THAN SHARE HIS LIFE. FOR GOD IS LIFE AND THE LIFE GIVER.

I’m not seeing anything in that passage, or chapter, that supports your understanding. In fact, the opposite.


Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
— Romans 4:4

 

[Hammster]

I said “this is the way He describes Himself”.



Jesus says:

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

John 14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

John 8:19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?” “You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

So, first and foremost we look at Jesus to see the father, so was Jesus fair, just and Loving to all humans?

Jesus is the Word of God.

We know 1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

Every promise God makes to man, obligates God.

I’m not seeing where God has described Himself as “fair, just and Loving with all humans.” Please show that.

 

[corinth77777]

[

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The faith that saves is worked by love
If love is in front of faith it is not alone

 

[Hammster]

[





The faith that saves is worked by love
If love is in front of faith it is not alone

I don’t know what that even means.

 

[corinth77777]

God obligates Himself to be fair, just and Loving with all humans, since this is the way He describes Himself.

What would you think of a rescuer who could just as easily and safely save everyone, but knowingly will only save a few? God is not like such a person, since God saves everyone willing to accept His help. Those who refuse God’s Love, charity, mercy, grace and forgiveness would not like to be in heaven, since there is only Godly type Love (charity) which they do not like.

What do you see as man’s earthly objective and remember you can take any Biblical command and say “ This is man’s objective” and have Biblical support for it?

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time yet:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).





If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

Beautiful and deep....There is so much in what you said that it probably would take some post to open it up to us. And my head a couple of months to totally grasp.

 

[corinth77777]

I don’t know what that even means.

Sorry, must mean I need some rest...
Make a great Day!

 

[bling]

I’m not seeing where God has described Himself as “fair, just and Loving with all humans.” Please show that.

Get to know Christ better.