Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

[renniks]

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Notice these observations:
1. Not of the will of man
2. But born of God
3. God gives the right to become His children
The clear implications are these:
1. We don't choose to be born again
2. God chooses us to be born again
3. We don't take the right to be God's children, since it is a gift
Therefore, the willingness to receive Christ requires faith, and that faith arises out of God's working of regeneration. These are spiritual truths understood in the spiritual dimension, and is not understood or accepted by mere natural reasoning.

Notice this observation; none of this happened until they received him. Of course we don't create our own salvation by our will.
But God does not do the work until we receive him, that is until we lay aside our own will, and accept his will for us.

 

[Hammster]

Get to know Christ better.

You made a statement that God describes Himself as fair, just and Loving with all humans. I’m asking where does He do that?

 

[Hammster]

Notice this observation; none of this happened until they received him. Of course we don't create our own salvation by our will.
But God does not do the work until we receive him, that is until we lay aside our own will, and accept his will for us.

Slaves to sin wouldn’t do that.

 

[renniks]

Slaves to sin wouldn’t do that.

According to you, maybe, but not according to the many verses confirming the belief precedes regeneration.

 

[Hammster]

According to you, maybe, but not according to the many verses confirming the belief precedes regeneration.

According to Paul, who made a distinction between being a slave to sin and a slave to righteousness.

Plus, there are no verses that say belief precedes regeneration. Heck, if belief preceded regeneration, we would even need to be regenerated.

 

[renniks]

Heck, if belief preceded regeneration, we would even need to be regenerated.

What does this mean?

 

[renniks]

According to Paul, who made a distinction between being a slave to sin and a slave to righteousness.

Can someone who is a slave to righteousness still sin? Obviously. So, why wouldn't someone who is a slave to sin be able to humble themselves?

 

[Hammster]

What does this mean?

It means that if you can do good apart from regeneration, then it’s not necessary.


For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8

Before regeneration, we are in the flesh. And Paul is clear that those in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Hammster]

Can someone who is a slave to righteousness still sin? Obviously. So, why wouldn't someone who is a slave to sin be able to humble themselves?

Because scripture says that we cannot.


For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8


For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
— Romans 7:5


Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
— 1 Corinthians 2:12-15

 

[tdidymas]

God obligates Himself to be fair, just and Loving with all humans, since this is the way He describes Himself.

What would you think of a rescuer who could just as easily and safely save everyone, but knowingly will only save a few? God is not like such a person, since God saves everyone willing to accept His help. Those who refuse God’s Love, charity, mercy, grace and forgiveness would not like to be in heaven, since there is only Godly type Love (charity) which they do not like.

What do you see as man’s earthly objective and remember you can take any Biblical command and say “ This is man’s objective” and have Biblical support for it?

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time yet:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).





If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

I agree this is a huge topic, and this forum is not designed to resolve these issues. The reason I am responding is because I'm answering the objections to so-called Calvinism which the OP is about. In my view the objections are invalid, although many of the questions are legitimate.

I see that your argument is well-thought out, except you are leaving out some things, which every Arminian leaves out, namely that because of the Fall, man is totally depraved spiritually, and this is described in Rom. 3:10-18. If man wasn't totally depraved, then he could produce a spiritually righteous act, and if he could do that, then righteousness would be established by obedience to the law. But the apostle Paul debunks that idea.

This makes the gospel message about Christ much more serious than most people make it out to be. Christ doesn't save people from mistakes. He saves them from hating God. And this takes an act of God, since human reasoning cannot come to the point of choosing to love Him. God must intervene in the life and soul of individuals.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

For the sake of argument:
Did God create people with a DNA to need Him?
For argument sake can someone fall into His will outside of being in Christ.

For example A woman's will may be that all the dishes are clean. SHE DOES NOT ASKED ANYONE TO DO THE DISHES. BUT THERE IS A PILE OF DIRTY DISHES IN THE SINK. HER SON COMES HOME AND DOES THE DISHES.
HAS HIS ACTIVITY FALLEN INTO THE WOMANS WILL?

AND THEREFORE IS IT POSSIBLE THAT GOD DRAWS THOSE PEOPLE IN?

DOES THAT MAKE THAT PERSON STILL DEAD OF NOT KNOWING HER WILL? YES

Not sure where you're coming from with this analogy. Dead doesn't mean "not knowing." Dead means "without God." No one "falls into God's will." People who do God's will are directed by God to do so, because God is ultimately in control of all circumstances. God can cause unbelievers to do His will at times, which He did with Nebuchadnezzar for example. In Proverbs it says "the heart of the king is in God's hand, and He turns it whichever way He will." So God can work His will in a person even if they aren't born again. How much more does God turn the heart of the one whom He chose, born-again with the indwelling Spirit? Believing the gospel is not a natural act; it's supernatural, so God has to work that work in individuals.
TD

 

[corinth77777]

I agree this is a huge topic, and this forum is not designed to resolve these issues. The reason I am responding is because I'm answering the objections to so-called Calvinism which the OP is about. In my view the objections are invalid, although many of the questions are legitimate.

I see that your argument is well-thought out, except you are leaving out some things, which every Arminian leaves out, namely that because of the Fall, man is totally depraved spiritually, and this is described in Rom. 3:10-18. If man wasn't totally depraved, then he could produce a spiritually righteous act, and if he could do that, then righteousness would be established by obedience to the law. But the apostle Paul debunks that idea.

This makes the gospel message about Christ much more serious than most people make it out to be. Christ doesn't save people from mistakes. He saves them from hating God. And this takes an act of God, since human reasoning cannot come to the point of choosing to love Him. God must intervene in the life and soul of individuals.
TD

I can agree with that Ideal....However I'm not dogmatic about it...
I figure because GOD ALSO gave us a conscious.
And even with Adam and Eve fall God still communicated with them.

And the question of How God decides to draw is still unanswered

Plus what if outside of Christ one can still fall into His will.

Since He imposes on our will in some way...

Even before Abraham was declared righteous, God still must have made Himself known.

For How can one call upon whom they have not heard, However even those who heard
Did not always choose to trust.

Did God communicate with Cain even Cain had fallen?

 

[tdidymas]

The faith that saves is never alone.
Just as Noah's ark was faithful in saving those who got in it. ALONE IT SAVES no one!

Yes, that full slogan of the Reformation is "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is not alone." It means that real faith is not just a claim, but has spiritual fruit that follows. This is essentially what James is about. But the great misunderstanding in the Roman Church and many others is they think James is teaching essentially that salvation is by the grace of God plus our works. That misunderstanding has led to this very debate that has been going on for centuries.

So, being justified by faith alone is the teaching of Paul in Rom. 3-5. And this faith is the kind that trusts Christ for real deliverance from sin, which results in repentive action. So the faith that is not alone is the faith that walks in works of obedience to God's commands, namely loving God and others. It doesn't mean the believer is perfect, but rather going in God's direction.

And since in our natural unregenerate state we cannot obey God in anything, including believing, God must do the spiritual work in us to bring us to Him, as Jesus said "no one can come to Me except the Father draw him."
TD

 

[tdidymas]

We can agree that God is the force behind it all.
But the opposite of grace is works not effort

Effort and works is the same thing. When we work, we are expending effort.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Notice this observation; none of this happened until they received him. Of course we don't create our own salvation by our will.
But God does not do the work until we receive him, that is until we lay aside our own will, and accept his will for us.

No, it says "who were born..." meaning that those who receive Him were born of God.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I can agree with that Ideal....However I'm not dogmatic about it...
I figure because GOD ALSO gave us a conscious.
And even with Adam and Eve fall God still communicated with them.

And the question of How God decides to draw is still unanswered

Plus what if outside of Christ one can still fall into His will.

Since He imposes on our will in some way...

Even before Abraham was declared righteous, God still must have made Himself known.

For How can one call upon whom they have not heard, However even those who heard
Did not always choose to trust.

Did God communicate with Cain even Cain had fallen?

Don't get what God does in the natural realm confused with what He does in the spiritual realm. Yes, God spoke to Cain, but since Cain was not a believer, he failed to listen. God speaking to Cain doesn't mean God was working in him spiritually, the way He did with Abel. This was the reason for Cain's envy, and was the same reason for the Jews' envy of Christ.

You wrote "Even before Abraham was declared righteous, God still must have made Himself known." How true, and it's the same with everyone who comes into faith in Christ, that God must first reveal Himself to those individuals. It doesn't happen for everyone, as the unbeliever is "without God in the world."

The term "draw" is a metaphor concerning how a person comes to Christ. The word picture for this drawing is the way water is drawn out of a well. Everywhere this term is used in the NT it means by force, such as drawing water, drawing a sword, dragging Paul into court, etc. It's no different for John 6:44. And doesn't this idea fit well with our attitude before our conversion? We heard the gospel over and over, but refused to respond, like dragging feet, yet God won out in the end and conquered our soul.
TD

 

[renniks]

It means that if you can do good apart from regeneration, then it’s not necessary.


For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8

Before regeneration, we are in the flesh. And Paul is clear that those in the flesh cannot please God.

But that's not what you said:"Heck, if belief preceded regeneration, we would even need to be regenerated."
And you have it backwards, as usual.
Acts 16:30Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,

First, belief, then salvation.

 

[Hammster]

But that's not what you said:"Heck, if belief preceded regeneration, we would even need to be regenerated."
And you have it backwards, as usual.
Acts 16:30Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,

First, belief, then salvation.

Sorry. “wouldn’t”

As to Acts 16, where does it say when he was regenerated?

 

[renniks]

Because scripture says that we cannot.

But, it does not say that we cannot respond to God. Just the opposite, it says even nature shows us God, so that men are without excuse.
Men are not just flesh, we are flesh and Spirit, all of us, and the spirit can respond to God's calling.
"Deep calls unto deep."

 

[renniks]

As to Acts 16, where does it say when he was regenerated?

Right there in the text he is told how to be saved. This isn't a lone verse.
I could list lots that say the same.
Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.