Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

[BNR32FAN]

So you all have been wrong from the beginning.

See how that’s not a refutation? Do you see why I prefer scripture over “well, it’s what my church teaches, even if it’s not in line with scripture”?

I believe in the Orthodox doctrines concerning salvation and yet I have never in my entire life even entered an Orthodox Church, talked with an Orthodox priest, or read an Orthodox book. I found my beliefs from studying the scriptures before I found the church that actually teaches them. I once believed in reformed theology and defense it as you do now, but John 15 changed all that. Eternal security and faith alone are false doctrines. John 15 is proof of that along with many other scriptures. The scriptures that so many people think are supporting reformed theology actually aren’t when you really examine them.

All of the churches that the apostles established are wrong on their teachings and have been since the second century? It’s really mind boggling how such a widespread conspiracy could possibly happen throughout all of Jesus’ churches when you really consider all the factors that must take place. For one there is absolutely no evidence of any resistance amongst the devoted servants of God within the church. What I mean is every single church the apostles established agreed without any sign of resistance to start teaching a false gospel? All those devoted servants of God who RISKED THEIR LIVES SPREADING THE GOSPEL just decided to accept and begin teaching a false gospel? These churches were spread out over many different nations over thousands of miles apart with thousands upon thousands of believers who all just decided to begin preaching a false gospel, and there was absolutely no resistance whatsoever? When you really start to examine the idea of this widespread conspiracy it really begins to appear quite ridiculous and impossible.

 

[Hammster]

But Paul taught that faith alone is not enough.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

How does this teach that faith isn’t enough to be declared righteous?

 

[Hammster]

The scriptures that so many people think are supporting reformed theology actually aren’t when you really examine them.

I have examined them. And continue to do so. If this is really how your going to argue, then there’s not much more to discuss. If you have scripture to discuss, let me know.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why do you say the reformed church taught wrong, can you quote something from their teaching that opposes scripture or understanding of it?

Sure let’s take eternal security for example.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Look at all the implications in this message from Jesus to His 11 faithful apostles. Was Jesus telling them this message because they are somehow incapable of failing to abide in Him? No, not according to the text and according to what He says to them.

Was Paul a believer when he said this?

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice that Paul includes even himself as being capable of denying Christ which will result in Christ denying him.

According to reformed theology Paul would be incapable of denying Christ and incapable of losing his salvation. Paul is writing to his beloved friend and devoted servant of God, Timothy telling him that if they deny Christ then Christ will deny them. I don’t think anyone denies that both Paul and Timothy had a very strong faith and that they were true servants of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have examined them. And continue to do so. If this is really how your going to argue, then there’s not much more to discuss. If you have scripture to discuss, let me know.

Well you feel free to post any scripture you think supports reformed theology and I will explain to you how it doesn’t.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why do you say the reformed church taught wrong, can you quote something from their teaching that opposes scripture or understanding of it?

No.
(not here).

This is why we are not on one accord;
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
I came in through a set doctrine in which to believe....and if it didnt fit the doctrine...then people were wrong [smile]
But the foundation is not the doctrine of Men
It's Jesus Christ

In His Word, what did Jesus Himself Say about being lifted up ?
(as well as the other analogies used sometimes)

John 12:32 Context

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33

This he said, signifying what death he should die.

i.e. lifted up on the execution stake/ crucified... ...

Christ Crucified! Being the Gospel Good News Message Preached by the Apostles in Scripture....

 

[fwGod]

Are you talking about the work of redemption in Jesus' crucifixion on the cross while we were yet sinners? That was without our permission.

Or are you talking about our response to His demonstration of love for us? That is with our permission.

God demonstrated His love for us in that while we were sinners Christ died for us. -Rm.5:8

 

[Hammster]

Well you feel free to post any scripture you think supports reformed theology and I will explain to you how it doesn’t.

All scripture supports Reformed Theology.

 

[corinth77777]

Sure let’s take eternal security for example.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Look at all the implications in this message from Jesus to His 11 faithful apostles. Was Jesus telling them this message because they are somehow incapable of failing to abide in Him? No, not according to the text and according to what He says to them.

Was Paul a believer when he said this?

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice that Paul includes even himself as being capable of denying Christ which will result in Christ denying him.

According to reformed theology Paul would be incapable of denying Christ and incapable of losing his salvation. Paul is writing to his beloved friend and devoted servant of God, Timothy telling him that if they deny Christ then Christ will deny them. I don’t think anyone denies that both Paul and Timothy had a very strong faith and that they were true servants of God.

Where is it exactly stated...what direct words are used by the reformed in that century

 

[corinth77777]

No.
(not here).

In His Word, what did Jesus Himself Say about being lifted up ?
(as well as the other analogies used sometimes)

John 12:32 Context

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33

This he said, signifying what death he should die.

i.e. lifted up on the execution stake/ crucified... ...

Christ Crucified! Being the Gospel Good News Message Preached by the Apostles in Scripture....

Yes, but we are the body of Christ and we lift Him up through obedience....if we die with Him we should also live with Him....don't quote me....but let me say it this way I seen a double meaning...it questions something for me.....about the body of Christ....the temple not made with Hands....anyway I hope you can see what I was saying....

How can we lift Him up from the earth today.
How can His will be done on earth as in Heaven?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How can we lift Him up from the earth today.
How can His will be done on earth as in Heaven?

As Jesus Says, if we love(Yahweh's meaning of love, not man's, not emotionals) Yahweh, we obey Him.

 

[tdidymas]

The analogy is what? DEFECTIVE how so?
One of the first questions I asked on this post was saved from what.

Next please give me passages that says a dead person cannot never cry out to God?

Note to self: Even if you are told to cry out Does God Force you to open your mouth?

There are many times in which man is part of His deliverence. They had to obey...

And does scripture say who God draws to Christ to be saved....In one passage a man is praying.....and He is told His prayers had been heard and was given instructions to go so that His sins would be forgiver.

I do not believe any one disagree that God is not the initiator.

That would be hard not to see when He created man and man became a living soul.

When I thought of permission, I am thinking rather one is active or passive in their deliverence from present circumstances.
Because it is.....the outcome that God seeks from us that is the goal.

If He does it without us then explain the purpose of free will.

He brings us into the light in order to be Justified by the light in order that we may purify ourselves by the word. And even here we find we play apart in our being delivered[salvation] on earth from the wrath of man. And Satans power over the earth. Which is to seperate us from the power of Life [God].

Why was Noah right with God and many others were not? If He walked with God He had to have realized a need for Him. Maybe He then stayed close to Him.

Point being that is what I saw permission to be about. Do people yield ...not the source of their yielding.

And Lol my Analogy is not defective until you can prove that God doesn't draw people to Jesus who yield in someway....your turn smile

Ok, your analogy is defective because it is an agreement between two humans who are separate from each other and have separate minds, separate agendas, and separate lifestyles, and are operating in the natural realm. That is very much unlike our relationship with God, since He is operating in the spiritual realm, and He enters into our spirit and soul and deeply influences us from the inside out, which is the nature of Paul's analogy in Eph. 2. The analogy of a dead person is that they can do nothing. Paul wrote "while we were helpless, Christ died for the ungodly." A dead cat lying on the side of the road is helpless in that way.
TD

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Good ! No worries about the conflicts / arguments at all....

Simply good !

Thanks to God our Father for the fellowship we share in Christ Jesus !

Jesus came to raise the dead, and He Does !
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE="corinth77777 ]... ... ... ... ...
One of the first questions I asked on this post was saved from what.

Next please give me passages that says a dead person cannot never cry out to God?

Note to self: Even if you are told to cry out Does God Force you to open your mouth?

There are many times in which man is part of His deliverence. They had to obey...

And does scripture say who God draws to Christ to be saved....In one passage a man is praying.....and He is told His prayers had been heard and was given instructions to go so that His sins would be forgiver.

I do not believe any one disagree that God is not the initiator.

That would be hard not to see when He created man and man became a living soul.

When I thought of permission, I am thinking rather one is active or passive in their deliverence from present circumstances.
Because it is.....the outcome that God seeks from us that is the goal.

If He does it without us then explain the purpose of free will.

He brings us into the light in order to be Justified by the light in order that we may purify ourselves by the word. And even here we find we play apart in our being delivered[salvation] on earth from the wrath of man. And Satans power over the earth. Which is to seperate us from the power of Life [God].

Why was Noah right with God and many others were not? If He walked with God He had to have realized a need for Him. Maybe He then stayed close to Him.

Point being that is what I saw permission to be about. Do people yield ...not the source of their yielding.

And Lol my Analogy is not defective until you can prove that God doesn't draw people to Jesus who yield in someway....your turn smile[/QUOTE

 

[tdidymas]

So, what happens to us in salvation is all God's work. God is the cause, and we and our works, choices, etc. are the result, in which we are operating in faith.



And yes, it's not all academic, as we must experience the faith walk to understand what the apostles were writing about.

I pretty much agree.
But He doesnt save us without us yielding
Other wise He would not have gave us free will.
And He would not have given us Jesus's life to eat from. Stop eating and you stop growing. He doesn't force us to eat from Him but He is the source in why we eat from Him.
What happens if you stop eating ? Your growth is stunted, or you die. Because if you are not eating from Him then you trying to thrive on something else.

But since salvation is Eternal, on going, you are only as good [live] as you feed....

Just some thoughts...tks for the exchsnge

It sounds like you're trying to make it academic. To say He doesn't save us without us yielding is contradictory to your agreeing it's all God's work. God is working, therefore we are yielding. Cause and effect. Do you not experience this?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

But Paul taught that faith alone is not enough.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Faith alone is enough for justification, since Paul wrote that we are justified by faith in Christ. That's a past event and a done deal. What people fail to notice is that justification can't be separated from the resulting sanctification (which is past, present, and future in degrees and stages). When God joins with us by the Spirit, we become His sons, in which He chastises us to make us holy. This is God's work, as much as anything else regarding salvation. Our cooperation with God in this endeavor is a result of God's working, not a cause. When people claim that a their choice to cooperate with God is the cause of God working in them, they are denying the power of righteousness, because they are claiming it comes from themselves rather than God. Righteousness is a gift from God, therefore our righteous choices are a gift from God, and yielding to God is a righteous choice. Therefore, as I yield to God, I am exercising the faith that my choice to yield to Him is a gift from Him, and this is how my faith is maturing. Therefore, if I love my neighbor, God is working that in me and through me, because right living is God's grace at work.
TD

 

[corinth77777]

TD[/QUOTE]

It sounds like you're trying to make it academic. To say He doesn't save us without us yielding is contradictory to your agreeing it's all God's work. God is working, therefore we are yielding. Cause and effect. Do you not experience this?
TD

Agree However the issue....has never been that God is working, or is the source, or initiator....The question is does He do it without us yielding.

How am I making that academic if it was through my own experience...

 

[corinth77777]

Ok, your analogy is defective because it is an agreement between two humans who are separate from each other and have separate minds, separate agendas, and separate lifestyles, and are operating in the natural realm. That is very much unlike our relationship with God, since He is operating in the spiritual realm, and He enters into our spirit and soul and deeply influences us from the inside out, which is the nature of Paul's analogy in Eph. 2. The analogy of a dead person is that they can do nothing. Paul wrote "while we were helpless, Christ died for the ungodly." A dead cat lying on the side of the road is helpless in that way.
TD

I disagree...because an analogy is not always talking about the real thing...it may be use to compare a particular point about the real thing to help understand a concept.

As I already address I was not speaking of being saved from the dark. And still considered the post's question. By asking you to give me a passage in scripture that says a person who is seperated from God can never cry out to Him.


The saving I said I was specifically talking about was when you come to know what it is you really have in Christ.

As is is written :
John 5:
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Recall He gave the right to become sons of God.
So it is not merely looking to the son...which in my opinion allows us to be brought into the light [saved from darkness]

But who you trust after believing who He is.
For this is the will of God that everyone who looks to the son and believes will have life and be raised on the last day.

For one can be in the light and not walk in the light which then will not transform any of our hearts, nor grow if we do not continue to obey.

But this is the saving that is closest related to the relationship with God which is eternal life in and of itself.

For faith is also Generated when you know what you have, that is one reason why we must remain in Him. For it is impossible to please Him without faith.

The faith that works by love

 

[corinth77777]

Faith alone is enough for justification, since Paul wrote that we are justified by faith in Christ. That's a past event and a done deal. What people fail to notice is that justification can't be separated from the resulting sanctification (which is past, present, and future in degrees and stages). When God joins with us by the Spirit, we become His sons, in which He chastises us to make us holy. This is God's work, as much as anything else regarding salvation. Our cooperation with God in this endeavor is a result of God's working, not a cause. When people claim that a their choice to cooperate with God is the cause of God working in them, they are denying the power of righteousness, because they are claiming it comes from themselves rather than God. Righteousness is a gift from God, therefore our righteous choices are a gift from God, and yielding to God is a righteous choice. Therefore, as I yield to God, I am exercising the faith that my choice to yield to Him is a gift from Him, and this is how my faith is maturing. Therefore, if I love my neighbor, God is working that in me and through me, because right living is God's grace at work.
TD

Show me this passage in the kjv

"Faith alone is enough for justification, since Paul wrote that we are justified by faith in Christ. "

 

[corinth77777]

It sounds like you're trying to make it academic. To say He doesn't save us without us yielding is contradictory to your agreeing it's all God's work. God is working, therefore we are yielding. Cause and effect. Do you not experience this?
TD

I think I see the ideal you hold....
And that goes back to this question and I may use a "defective" analogy (smile)

Not that I see any of it still as being called academic [mind only]

Here it is My sis is Fat the doctors say if she doesnt lose weight she will die. I SEE SHE'S IN NEED AND BRING TO HER A GIFT, SOMETHING I ALREADY HAD. I GIVE HER, HER SALVATION, The top of the line unbreakable TREAD MILL.

NOW WILL IT HELP TO DELIVER HER FROM BEING FAT IF SHE DOESN'T WORK OUT ON IT?....WILL SHE " WORK OUT HER SALVATION" The salvation is Christ's Life

SO now MAYBE THEN YOU can SEE
GALATIANS 2:16 KJV.....as the faith or faithful of Jesus.....

The question or statement I presented in an earlier post....You must try it on...[is it the faithfulness or faith of Jesus/ or faith in Jesus?

We believe in order to be justified by the faith or faithfulness of Jesus; But How?
When we work out what we Have been Given. JESUS IS THE SOURCE OF SALVATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS IS STILL THE WAY.

As the treadmill will always be around and is equipped to hold her weight....

So can we come to be justified,made right with God, by His faithfulness or faith.



JESUS THE christ... is faithful because He proved He was God...He resurrected and lives forever to INTERCEED for those who come to Him. He can not self destruct because He lives off Himself.



Therefore we must Eat from Him to live.
And so you see He never stops being what is behind Him creating....all thing are made by Him...Even things that must learn to yield to Him.

 

[Hammster]

Show me this passage in the kjv

"Faith alone is enough for justification, since Paul wrote that we are justified by faith in Christ. "

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬