Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

[jimmyjimmy]

If people are building up the wrath of God because of their stubbornness then obviously their cooperation is required for salvation.

That seems to contradict this text:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[tdidymas]

Hi, and yes I believe faith is a gift...but what does that have to do with a anything?

Well, you began this conversation by objecting to something I said to someone else. I was asking if they believed they were in control of their salvation, and then you piped in with what appeared to me as justifying that idea. Then it all gets down to this, faith being a gift from God. This makes God in control of our salvation, as He is the one who chooses to give the gift of faith or not.

And then if you claim that God gives the gift of faith to those who make right choices in life, then that's saying that God saves those who merit it, and gives the gift of faith to those who merit it. I know that some denominations actually teach that grace is merited, but I don't believe that. I believe that grace is unmerited, meaning there was nothing I did to deserve the gift of God. Then, God just decided on His own discretion to give me the gift of faith, completely unmerited on my part. This is what "unconditional election" means, it's the same idea as unmerited grace. I think it's the main point in answering the OP.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

[


Let me have a retake...and recall I am a learner.
And think this outloud. If we know through Gal 2 or 3:16 that we believe in Him....Who He is in order to be Justified by the faith or faithfulness of Him.. that can mean a couple of thing. That His faithfulness is The Gift. I pair that with 1 peter 3;21 that the Baptism that saves us now.....is the answer from God for a clear conscience found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Notice what the Baptism is Christ's resurrection[a noun]
This is How or even the source of our cleasing[saving] delivering [verb] of the conscience b4 God. And recall in Hebrews He was made the Source of our being delivered...and I'll verify if salvation there is a verb. So I believe His resurrected Life, He Himself is our gift....He is faithful,
And we are given therefore His faithfulness.

Note to myself...I can see His faithfulness as a promise
He is Faithful because He lives forever to interceed for those who come to Him.
But we can also say that His type of faith that He had in the father is what alo saves us...but I have to think upon that a little bit more.
So CHRIST'S LIFE, GOD'S PROMISE IS OUR GIFT...WOW! THAT WAS FUN
It actually shows the statement of His name
"I am that I am"

Why you think it begs the question for me though?

Because it gets back to the first question I asked you since you started this conversation. It appeared to me that you were trying to say that you controlled your salvation, and is the reason I asked the question. Then in response to your quote of a verse: "But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children" it appeared to me that you were supporting a merited grace idea, and the reason why I said it begs the question, if your faith is a gift. If faith is a gift, then God is in control, and grace is unmerited.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Let's look up the words, for we can receive more grace, let's look up faith, for we can receive more faith, and look up salvation for we can be delivered many different times from different circumstances as we live our lives in todays world...because that is much of what being delivered from [salvation] is about. This Life we now live here on earth....
Yet extended over or rather a byproduct of life now...

Yes, there is more grace and more faith available. My point is that it has to start somewhere for wicked sinners like me who hated God and what He stood for. I'm saying that my faith was a gift from God, and as I grow in it, I look to God to increase it.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Now, the way I see it at this time....
Is in this passage
Roman's 4; 23-25

Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.

Question? is it like this, [me talking]
Having been justified through His faithfulness.

And I guess what matters is how one sees born from above, and the order, as what comes First. Regeneration or Justification...and all those other salvation terms...

But Honestly I believe if any Theologian really put their feet to the faith they would learn His word through their experience with Him.

For myself I spent more time trying to figure out the right way instead of trying to live it out.

The Reformed Faith (which I believe the Bible teaches, for the most part) teaches that regeneration comes before faith, because faith requires a person to be spiritual as a condition. So the logical order is regeneration, faith, justification, but not saying that is necessarily chronological. It may be simultaneous.

But faith is also a gift of God, and as Rom. 3:25 says that justification is a gift of God, justification is unmerited. So, what happens to us in salvation is all God's work. God is the cause, and we and our works, choices, etc. are the result, in which we are operating in faith.

And yes, it's not all academic, as we must experience the faith walk to understand what the apostles were writing about.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

My last statement is as I learned from Dallas Willard book....

Is that grace is not passive it's active
Think of doing your sister a favor to Hold Her money for her in your bank. If she does not release [verb] Her money to you can she use what you will do for her as a favor?

Yet in order for you to put it in the bank she may have to take it out of her bank, by tapping in a code, grabbing it out the machine, hold it, put it down in the car, after opening the door, then drive to your house, stop at shop lights....turn the corner, drive up the drive way get out the car,knock on the door, wait for you to open it, and hand it to you before you can put it in your bank.

So Willard Defines Grace something like this: God acting on our behalf in what we cannot do on our own. Does that make unmerited favor not a favor? No! It makes grace active.
Does your sister earn your putting it in the bank as a favor? No Does she have something to boast about in the favor? No

So the conclusion That I believe He gets to is that grace is not oppose to effort but earning.

Any analogy is defective at best. However, the best analogy of unmerited grace I've ever seen is Paul's analogy of life and death described in Eph. 2. "And you were dead..." "But God, rich in mercy, while we were dead in sin, raised us to life (by grace you were saved)" - this is Paul's definition of grace that saves, which is God enacting His salvation on us at a time we weren't even interested, much less hoping for it. Completely unmerited, since we did nothing and God did everything, which brought us spiritual life to respond favorably to the gospel message.
TDL

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That seems to contradict this text:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Key Word: "seems"...

Multitudes rebel and are not forgiven, not saved - they literally, or figuratively, or mentally, or spiritually, throw away the gift, instead of believing or following or obeying Jesus and instead of accepting it.

 

[corinth77777]

[

Key Word: "seems"...

Multitudes rebel and are not forgiven, not saved - they literally, or figuratively, or mentally, or spiritually, throw away the gift, instead of believing or following or obeying Jesus and instead of accepting it.

That seems to contradict this text:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It's important to see where the gift is located

Where? In Christ Jesus our Lord

But does it tell you here How to access the gift?

There is a statement of question: that Christ is in us but are we in Christ?


To abide to me is the same as obey, walk, or live by.

And when I think about how Jesus responds to Satan when He is tempted. He said something like man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God. So there is another case where we see [the am that I am].

However my real point, is that passage teaches us what we need to do to receive the actions of God. Live off the word, obey the word, do the word, feed off the word, taste and see.

For Jesus Himself tells that He obeys the father and the father does the work.

Nice interactive relationship is how we are delivered, protected [saved] from present circumstances in this world.

And here a similar passage applies: nothing can seperate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus...who walk not after the flesh but the spirit.

My thought is God who is Life is that love

 

[corinth77777]

Any analogy is defective at best. However, the best analogy of unmerited grace I've ever seen is Paul's analogy of life and death described in Eph. 2. "And you were dead..." "But God, rich in mercy, while we were dead in sin, raised us to life (by grace you were saved)" - this is Paul's definition of grace that saves, which is God enacting His salvation on us at a time we weren't even interested, much less hoping for it. Completely unmerited, since we did nothing and God did everything, which brought us spiritual life to respond favorably to the gospel message.
TDL

The analogy is what? DEFECTIVE how so?
One of the first questions I asked on this post was saved from what.

Next please give me passages that says a dead person cannot never cry out to God?

Note to self: Even if you are told to cry out Does God Force you to open your mouth?

There are many times in which man is part of His deliverence. They had to obey...

And does scripture say who God draws to Christ to be saved....In one passage a man is praying.....and He is told His prayers had been heard and was given instructions to go so that His sins would be forgiver.

I do not believe any one disagree that God is not the initiator.

That would be hard not to see when He created man and man became a living soul.

When I thought of permission, I am thinking rather one is active or passive in their deliverence from present circumstances.
Because it is.....the outcome that God seeks from us that is the goal.

If He does it without us then explain the purpose of free will.

He brings us into the light in order to be Justified by the light in order that we may purify ourselves by the word. And even here we find we play apart in our being delivered[salvation] on earth from the wrath of man. And Satans power over the earth. Which is to seperate us from the power of Life [God].

Why was Noah right with God and many others were not? If He walked with God He had to have realized a need for Him. Maybe He then stayed close to Him.

Point being that is what I saw permission to be about. Do people yield ...not the source of their yielding.

And Lol my Analogy is not defective until you can prove that God doesn't draw people to Jesus who yield in someway....your turn smile

 

[corinth77777]

Any analogy is defective at best. However, the best analogy of unmerited grace I've ever seen is Paul's analogy of life and death described in Eph. 2. "And you were dead..." "But God, rich in mercy, while we were dead in sin, raised us to life (by grace you were saved)" - this is Paul's definition of grace that saves, which is God enacting His salvation on us at a time we weren't even interested, much less hoping for it. Completely unmerited, since we did nothing and God did everything, which brought us spiritual life to respond favorably to the gospel message.
TDL

The analogy is what? DEFECTIVE how so?
One of the first questions I asked on this post was saved from what.

Next please give me passages that says a dead person cannot never cry out to God?

Note to self: Even if you are told to cry out Does God Force you to open your mouth?

There are many times in which man is part of His deliverence. They had to obey...

And does scripture say who God draws to Christ to be saved....In one passage a man is praying.....and He is told his prayers had been heard and was given instructions to go to meet up that His sins would be forgiven

I do not believe any one disagree that God is not the initiator.

That would be hard not to see when He created man and man became a living soul.

When I thought of permission, I am thinking rather one is active or passive, or yielding in their deliverence from present circumstances.
Because it is.....the outcome that God seeks from us that is the goal.

If He does it without us then explain the purpose of free will.

He brings us into the light in order to be Justified by the light, in order that we may purify ourselves by the word. And even here we find we play apart in our being delivered[salvation] on earth from the wrath of man and etc and Satans power over the earth. Which is to seperate us from the power of Life [God].

Why was Noah right with God and many others were not? If He walked with God He had to have realized a need for Him. Maybe He then stayed close to Him. And was His friend. Smile

Point being that is what I saw permission to be about. Do people yield [are they active participants]...not the "source" of their yielding, or actuvity

And Lol my Analogy is not defective until you can prove that God doesn't draw people to Jesus who yield in someway....your turn smile

 

[jimmyjimmy]

[





It's important to see where the gift is located

Where? In Christ Jesus our Lord

But does it tell you here How to access the gift?

There is a statement of question: that Christ is in us but are we in Christ?


To abide to me is the same as obey, walk, or live by.

And when I think about how Jesus responds to Satan when He is tempted. He said something like man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God. So there is another case where we see [the am that I am].

However my real point, is that passage teaches us what we need to do to receive the actions of God. Live off the word, obey the word, do the word, feed off the word, taste and see.

For Jesus Himself tells that He obeys the father and the father does the work.

Nice interactive relationship is how we are delivered, protected [saved] from present circumstances in this world.

And here a similar passage applies: nothing can seperate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus...who walk not after the flesh but the spirit.

My thought is God who is Life is that love

Gift.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That seems to contradict this text:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

A gift can be accepted or rejected, it doesn’t say that God has sentenced anyone to eternal life.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

A gift can be accepted or rejected, it doesn’t say that God has sentenced anyone to eternal life.

You have an odd view of eternal life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That seems to contradict this text:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The scriptures do not contradict themselves.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have an odd view of eternal life.

God’s kindness and patience aka His grace leads us to repentance but because some are stubborn and refuse to repent they are condemning themselves.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If God doesn’t require our cooperation in order to be saved then why wouldn’t he bestow His irresistible grace upon everyone and save all men?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The scriptures do not contradict themselves.

No. But apparently do.

 

[Hammster]

A gift can be accepted or rejected, it doesn’t say that God has sentenced anyone to eternal life.

Sentenced? Wow.

If you equate gifts with sentencing, then I’m happy to be sentenced.

 

[Hammster]

If God doesn’t require our cooperation in order to be saved then why wouldn’t he bestow His irresistible grace upon everyone and save all men?

And there’s the issue. God isn’t obligated to save a single person. Being sovereign, He gets to decide whether He saves, and who He saves. It’s not unfair if He only saves one, or a million, or a billion, but not everyone. “Fair” would be all of us condemned to hell. He doesn’t show mercy to everyone because He doesn’t choose to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And there’s the issue. God isn’t obligated to save a single person. Being sovereign, He gets to decide whether He saves, and who He saves. It’s not unfair if He only saves one, or a million, or a billion, but not everyone. “Fair” would be all of us condemned to hell. He doesn’t show mercy to everyone because He doesn’t choose to.

What you are implying is an attack against God’s very nature. GOD IS LOVE!!! Your theology makes God out to be cold hearted towards the unelect even tho the elect are no more worthy of His grace than the unelect. Your theology also makes God’s judgement on the unelect unjust by teaching that they are judged and condemned for failing to meet impossible expectations. Failure to meet impossible expectations is not the result of stubbornness or unwillingness, it’s the result of inability to comply. Your theology ignores the scriptures I’ve presented proving that condemnation is the result of stubbornness, not inability. If those who are condemned are condemned because of their inability to repent then it cannot be said that they are condemned because of their stubbornness. If God commanded that in order to receive salvation we must travel to Alpha Centauri and we are incapable of traveling there by any means then the cause of our condemnation is not stubbornness or unwillingness, it’s the result of inability. We are completely incapable of meeting that expectation. No matter how much we want to comply we are completely incapable of doing so, thus God’s expectations would be impossible to meet and His judgement against us would be UNJUST. You can’t punish someone for failing to meet impossible expectations and call it just. The problem you and Jimmy have is that you allow your doctrines to determine your interpretation of scripture instead of allowing the scriptures themselves to determine your doctrines. Calvin’s doctrines were refuted by Iranaeus way back in 170AD. It’s ridiculous to accept the teachings of men who were cultivating their doctrines over 1500 years after the church was established over the teachings that were accepted a mere 170 years after the church was established. If you want to know what the apostles taught in the early church don’t listen to someone who is making new doctrines 1500 years after the church was established, look to the earliest church writings.