Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

[Hammster]

"Ignore" might not be the best term but in any case we need to distance ourselves from emotional reactions so that we can study the actual points involved. You may already have that kind of objectivity while others may not. Either way the church today is just as adamant about the correct understanding of justification while not using language that might come off as pejorative or unnecessary in today's climate.

What’s the best term? Where did the church get it wrong?

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

 

[fhansen]

What’s the best term? Where did the church get it wrong?

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

It was right at the time, and not necessarily wrong now, just distracting. But we can always major in the minors if we prefer. Anyway, the anathemas were directed to more or less novel ideas at the time, which have often become traditions by this point. Either way, they have nothing to do with the theological positions or arguments themselves.

 

[Neogaia777]

What’s the best term? Where did the church get it wrong?

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

This is the "cooperation" (Below)

The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

Which of course, by it's very nature, also very much includes believing (or having faith) as well, but that much should be a given, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Hammster]

It was right at the time, and not necessarily wrong now, just distracting. But we can always major in the minors if we prefer. Anyway, the anathemas were directed to more or less novel ideas at the time, which have often become traditions by this point. Either way, they have nothing to do with the theological positions or arguments themselves.

You’re defending the rightness of the RCC. Does truth change in the RCC? How can it be anathema to believe in Sola Fide then, but not now?

 

[fhansen]

You’re defending the tightness of the RCC. Does truth change in the RCC? How can it be anathema to believe in Sola Fide then, but not now?

I didn't say they were no longer worthy of being anathematized. Trent set forth standards, so anyone coming up with foreign or dangerous or confusing ideas were considered to be fostering error, of course. But the difference today is that the errors have been in place for centuries, such that many generations are born into those erroneous theological traditions without necessarily knowing or understanding anything of their origins. The originators themselves were to be considered anathema. But the anathemas don't need to be lifted, they just aren't the order of the day anymore, serving no good purpose. As I said before, the doctrines are considered just as erroneous as ever. But levying anathemas are a pastoral judgment call, not a matter of dogma in itself.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say they were no longer worthy of being anathematized. Trent set forth standards, so anyone coming up with foreign or dangerous or confusing ideas were considered to be fostering error, of course. But the difference today is that the errors have been in place for centuries, such that many generations are born into those erroneous theological traditions without necessarily knowing or understanding anything of their origins. The originators themselves were to be considered anathema. But the anathemas don't need to be lifted, they just aren't the order of the day anymore, serving no good purpose. As I said before, the doctrines are considered just as erroneous as ever. But levying anathemas are a pastoral judgment call, not a matter of dogma in itself.

How do you know? It looks to me like Trent is trying to state a truth. I believe the doctrines of the Reformers which led to this anathema. So why wouldn’t it apply to me?

 

[fhansen]

How do you know? It looks to me like Trent is trying to state a truth. I believe the doctrines of the Reformers which led to this anathema. So why wouldn’t it apply to me?

It doesn't even matter-because the anathemas themselves don't address or impact the truthfulness or falsehood of a particular belief, but rather they have to do with the seriousness with which the church views false beliefs and how she wants to deal with the matter. They're a matter of how a person should be treated, not a matter of establishing truth, dogma, etc.

The apostles instructed that false teachers were to finally be shunned if they wouldn't come to their senses on right teachings. But if the church today is more tolerant for whatever reason, that still doesn't mean that you're not worthy of anathema-that's not my place to say- but it probably means that now is the time to come out of isolationist mentalities that may've been unavoidable back in the day but which are no longer productive or called for in any event. But maybe anathemas should be used. They're peripheral matters either way.

 

[Hammster]

It doesn't even matter-because the anathemas themselves don't address or impact the truthfulness or falsehood of a particular belief, but rather they have to do with the seriousness with which the church views false beliefs and how she wants to deal with the matter. They're a matter of how a person should be treated, not a matter of establishing truth, dogma, etc.

The apostles instructed that false teachers were to finally be shunned if they wouldn't come to their senses on right teachings. But if the church today is more tolerant for whatever reason, that still doesn't mean that you're not worthy of anathema-that's not my place to say- but it probably means that now is the time to come out of isolationist mentalities that may've been unavoidable back in the day but which are no longer productive or called for in any event. But maybe anathemas should be used. They're peripheral matters either way.

So I can’t really take Trent seriously. Which is why sola scriptura is so important. Those truths don’t fluctuate with the times.

 

[corinth77777]

Good Day, Corinth777

Can you comment on this passage given your view that God some how values our free-will above his own?

Gen 20:6Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

In Him,

Bill

Well you would have to first sight that is my given view. I DO NOT SEE WHERE I IMPLIED THAT. I SAID HE CREATED OUR FREE WILL...
AND WHY WOULD HE GO OUTSIDE OF HIS INTENTION FOR MAN'S FREE WILL.

IN THAT PASSAGE ABEMELAC WAS LIED TOO, AND AS God would not go outside the intent for why He created free will, I even more doubt 99.9999 percent that He would go outside His promises, since His Word seems to be His bond.

 

[corinth77777]

If you look at the context, the “us” are His elect. Otherwise, He’ll never return.

Anyone found in Christ, would you say are elected to comform to His image as well?

So are you saying that St. JOHN 3:16....IS ONLY REFERRING TO THE ELECT UNDER THE LAW WHO HAVE CAME TO Christ, when the mystery has been revealed to make twine 1 new man?

 

[fhansen]

So I can’t really take Trent seriously. Which is why sola scriptura is so important. Those truths don’t fluctuate with the times.

You seem to be rather adamant about opposing truth yourself then- or not being confused by it anyway since, as has been made clear, anathemas themselves have nothing to do with Christian truths, only about a practice previously used for enforcing them, something which is subject to change, unlike truth, which cannot change. Trent, as with all church councils, is profitable to study for anyone sincerely wanting to know God's truth, rather than burying ones head in the sand and avoiding it as if they already know. It takes some courage tho.

 

[renniks]

This whole thread rests on a false idea. Who is saying God needs anything? God is self sustaining and self sufficient. He needs nothing. I don't know that any mainline Christian Church would disagree with that. The question is: what does God want from us?
And there is no lack of biblical answers to that.

 

[Hammster]

Anyone found in Christ, would you say are elected to comform to His image as well?

So are you saying that St. JOHN 3:16....IS ONLY REFERRING TO THE ELECT UNDER THE LAW WHO HAVE CAME TO Christ, when the mystery has been revealed to make twine 1 new man?

Huh?

 

[tdidymas]

Well it does say choose this day whom you will serve.
It does say trust Christ
It does say the spirit is the Helper
Scripture does show
There are many who died in the wilderness because they didnt mix what they heard with faith...
How about "Enough" governing of ones own
In order to be saved[delivered] by the salvator
JESUS...FOR GOD CAN AND HAS SAVED US FROM MANY THINGS. ONE OF THE THINGS HE SAVED US FROM WAS BRINGING US OUT OF THE DARK......BUT LOOK WHY HE BRINGS US OUT. SO WE CAN BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE.

Ok, I take this answer to be a "yes," that you believe you are in control of your salvation, since it appears you are defending the idea. I just wanted to get that straight. I used to think as you do, and for many years I could never get inner peace, until I realized the Bible teaches that God is in control, and when I embraced that, I got the peace I was searching for. Ref. 1 Pet. 1:3-5.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Can anyone believe in God and not fear Him?
TD

 

[corinth77777]

Ok, I take this answer to be a "yes," that you believe you are in control of your salvation, since it appears you are defending the idea. I just wanted to get that straight. I used to think as you do, and for many years I could never get inner peace, until I realized the Bible teaches that God is in control, and when I embraced that, I got the peace I was searching for. Ref. 1 Pet. 1:3-5.
TD

DOES God's control go outside His intent?
Does God's control go outside His will?
DOES God's control go outside His order?
Does God's controll go outside of His promises?
Does God's control go outside His Word?
Does God make a Rock that He cannot move?
My Answer is No!
God gives Men enough autonomy, in saving men from their present circumstances.


If you do not rely on Him How then can you be saved? [DELIVERED] IS IT NOT TRUE THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD WITHOUT FAITH?
Everything belongs to God but that doesn't mean when He created men with free will He didn't intend for them to make their own choices.

Honestly, how can you not agree?

Yes God is in controll, but that is the reason we Learn to Trust Him.

As of the story where the people seen His works, but still did not mix what they heard with faith. And only Caleb and Joshua went into the promise land.

That is exactly whY Caleb and Joshua went into the promise land. THEY KNEW GOD WAS IN CONTROL.

THE CAPACITY FOR THAT TYPE OF FAITH TO ME IS STAYING CLOSE TO GOD AND RESPECTING WHO HE IS. [Something we choose]

SO YES I PLAY A PART IN BEING DELIVERED [MY SALVATION] AS YOU CALL IT....It's called faith! And that's not any faith, but faith that works by Love. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD'S LOVE FOR ME, THAT WHILE I WAS A DIRTY SINNER HE SENT HIS SON TO DIE FOR OUR SINS, BUT THAT WASN'T JUST ALL BECAUSE HE ROSE FOR OUR Justification. None of that did I do, that's all God and His doing.

Thereby what I didn't see is this That, He can save us from the Penalty of Sin....which is all His doing so that He can save us from the power of sin when we trust in Him. Which God then can choose to Justify us by.

His intent is already told in scripure... as the latter part of the verse says, and was raised for our justification.

I can't just believe something to have peace by it.
The promises of God are in Christ...and if we are kept by God it's because we are taught to remain in Him. I do not ignore the scripture that teaches me to remain. Why tell us to remain if it's not something we take part in.
Nor can a relationship with one spouse be a good one without communion.

And that is what eternal life is based on this passage: and this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

We are told that "know" here means an intimate relationship, as when Adam knew Eve. So does God force you to love Him?
Did He force Israel? And did He not give one a certificate of divorce?

Did He not say something like: if my people should humble themselves, seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways then should I hear from heaven and forgive their sins?

Yet you see no part in them playing a part in their [salvation] being delivered?


Does God Change? Are we as Gentile grafted into Israel. Does that not apply to us.

 

[corinth77777]

DOES God's control go outside His intent?
Does God's control go outside His will?
DOES God's control go outside His order?
Does God's controll go outside of His promises?
Does God's control go outside His Word?
Does God make a Rock that He cannot move?
My Answer is No!
God gives Men enough autonomy, in saving men from their present circumstances.


If you do not rely on Him How then can you be saved? [DELIVERED] IS IT NOT TRUE THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD WITHOUT FAITH?
Everything belongs to God but that doesn't mean when He created men with free will He didn't intend for them to make their own choices.

Honestly, how can you not agree?

Yes God is in controll, but that is the reason we Learn to Trust Him.

As of the story where the people seen His works, but still did not mix what they heard with faith. And only Caleb and Joshua went into the promise land.

That is exactly whY Caleb and Joshua went into the promise land. THEY KNEW GOD WAS IN CONTROL.

THE CAPACITY FOR THAT TYPE OF FAITH TO ME IS STAYING CLOSE TO GOD AND RESPECTING WHO HE IS. [Something we choose]

SO YES I PLAY A PART IN BEING DELIVERED [MY SALVATION] AS YOU CALL IT....It's called faith! And that's not any faith, but faith that works by Love. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD'S LOVE FOR ME, THAT WHILE I WAS A DIRTY SINNER HE SENT HIS SON TO DIE FOR OUR SINS, BUT THAT WASN'T JUST ALL BECAUSE HE ROSE FOR OUR Justification. None of that did I do, that's all God and His doing.

Thereby what I didn't see is this That, He can save us from the Penalty of Sin....which is all His doing so that He can save us from the power of sin when we trust in Him. Which God then can choose to Justify us by.

His intent is already told in scripure... as the latter part of the verse says, and was raised for our justification.

I can't just believe something to have peace by it.
The promises of God are in Christ...and if we are kept by God it's because we are taught to remain in Him. I do not ignore the scripture that teaches me to remain. Why tell us to remain if it's not something we take part in.
Nor can a relationship with one spouse be a good one without communion.

And that is what eternal life is based on this passage: and this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

We are told that "know" here means an intimate relationship, as when Adam knew Eve. So does God force you to love Him?
Did He force Israel? And did He not give one a certificate of divorce?

Did He not say something like: if my people should humble themselves, seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways then should I hear from heaven and forgive their sins?

Yet you see no part in them playing a part in their [salvation] being delivered?


Does God Change? Are we as Gentile grafted into Israel. Does that not apply to us.

With all that is said here
I come to understand my problem as being brought up Baptist. And that was I trusted something He did before I trusted who He was.
For Jesus came preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and Paul as I now get, was putting the face to the kingdom. For one thing I see, as I am writing this out, in the atonement message is that fact that He Rose from the dead proved who He was, as the rest of the passage of the Gospel says: and has went to heaven seated at the right Hand of the father.

Point being when we put our trust in who He is, as one said, who trust [intends to act as what they believe is true] that He in control of all things, rather than trust something He will do, that is forgive sin , Then can we see a natural progression of What it means. One thought BECAUSE you are living out a living word that comes alive to us, as we live it out.

But the understanding that when we are brought to gripp who He really Is...as Peter
We should learn to trust Him as God...This trust is an intention to follow what You believe....which I say may be How God brings us out of The dark into the light...But that information about who He is, is only Aided by The Holy Spirit as Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal to Him who He was but His Father. And that was the Rock...[maybe realization or revelation] that the church would be built off of.

Therefore one way He saved us was from bringing us out of the dark and into the light.

None of our doing right?

But one reason we are brought to the light is so that we can learn to live in the presence of God in order to have a relationship but I believe, the actions of purifying ourselves by living, abiding, in and by His living word is then how He justifies us.
Another words the law is fullfilled in us as we walk not after the flesh, but the Spirit.
The law fulfillment in us is what then will set us right by God.....so then....we can come to know, experience things that are in Him, for the father and Him are one ready to exemplify judgement....just added that last part because it came to me like that....[exemplify judgement]

 

[corinth77777]

Can anyone believe in God and not fear Him?
TD

Sounds like they are almost equal according to the scripture the beginning of knowledge is the fear of the Lord.
For to know who He is, is to be in awe of Him. Do you agree?

 

[tdidymas]

DOES God's control go outside His intent?
Does God's control go outside His will?
DOES God's control go outside His order?
Does God's controll go outside of His promises?
Does God's control go outside His Word?
Does God make a Rock that He cannot move?
My Answer is No!
God gives Men enough autonomy, in saving men from their present circumstances.


If you do not rely on Him How then can you be saved? [DELIVERED] IS IT NOT TRUE THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD WITHOUT FAITH?
Everything belongs to God but that doesn't mean when He created men with free will He didn't intend for them to make their own choices.

Honestly, how can you not agree?

Yes God is in controll, but that is the reason we Learn to Trust Him.

As of the story where the people seen His works, but still did not mix what they heard with faith. And only Caleb and Joshua went into the promise land.

That is exactly whY Caleb and Joshua went into the promise land. THEY KNEW GOD WAS IN CONTROL.

THE CAPACITY FOR THAT TYPE OF FAITH TO ME IS STAYING CLOSE TO GOD AND RESPECTING WHO HE IS. [Something we choose]

SO YES I PLAY A PART IN BEING DELIVERED [MY SALVATION] AS YOU CALL IT....It's called faith! And that's not any faith, but faith that works by Love. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD'S LOVE FOR ME, THAT WHILE I WAS A DIRTY SINNER HE SENT HIS SON TO DIE FOR OUR SINS, BUT THAT WASN'T JUST ALL BECAUSE HE ROSE FOR OUR Justification. None of that did I do, that's all God and His doing.

Thereby what I didn't see is this That, He can save us from the Penalty of Sin....which is all His doing so that He can save us from the power of sin when we trust in Him. Which God then can choose to Justify us by.

His intent is already told in scripure... as the latter part of the verse says, and was raised for our justification.

I can't just believe something to have peace by it.
The promises of God are in Christ...and if we are kept by God it's because we are taught to remain in Him. I do not ignore the scripture that teaches me to remain. Why tell us to remain if it's not something we take part in.
Nor can a relationship with one spouse be a good one without communion.

And that is what eternal life is based on this passage: and this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

We are told that "know" here means an intimate relationship, as when Adam knew Eve. So does God force you to love Him?
Did He force Israel? And did He not give one a certificate of divorce?

Did He not say something like: if my people should humble themselves, seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways then should I hear from heaven and forgive their sins?

Yet you see no part in them playing a part in their [salvation] being delivered?


Does God Change? Are we as Gentile grafted into Israel. Does that not apply to us.

So you don't believe that your faith is the gift of God, and is His work? You believe that it's your work (your choice) to believe? I certainly agree with most of what you say here, but this is all after the fact. I choose to accept Christ because He first accepted me. I choose to love God because He first loved me. I choose to obey Christ because God first chose me. And God's choice of me is without merit, without me "first" choosing to believe and obey. So, the effect is, God chose me without my permission or consent, since it had nothing to do with my natural potential. Rather, God in His infinite wisdom worked His will in me, changing my will, revealing Himself to make me know Him, giving me the hope that is in Christ, opening my spiritual eyes, and causing me to believe in Him. Therefore, my cooperation with His Spirit was after He moved in on me. So, God saved me without my permission, and I base that on Eph. 2:4-5, which is the basis of my experience. And my faith in Christ was God's gift to me, which is how I read Eph. 2:8.

Concerning control of the unregenerate, 1 Jn. 5:19 says that they all are under the control or power of the evil one. According to this, God has to do something spiritual and supernatural to us in order for us to have the spiritual wisdom to believe the gospel (apart from our "permission"). I say He has to "translate us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear son" (Col. 1:13). When that happened to me, I was not cooperating with God in any way. I only started cooperating after it happened. And I understand my experience by what I am told in the Bible. So I take it this is not your experience, and not how you read scripture?
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Sounds like they are almost equal according to the scripture the beginning of knowledge is the fear of the Lord.
For to know who He is, is to be in awe of Him. Do you agree?

Of course, I do, it's the reason for my question. But it begs the question for you, do you believe that your faith is the gift of God (Ref. Eph. 2:8)?
TD