Does God Need Your Permission in Order to Save You?

[BNR32FAN]

The question I asked is why does God need cooperation. I do not believe God forces anything he is the primary cause of every thing he does not force that would assume a valid resistance can be mounted against His purposes, will, and desires.

Which I do not believe... nothing can stay his hand.

So your need is based on your assertion "God does not force"

In Him,

Bill

If salvation was against our cooperation wouldn’t that be forced?

 

[Hammster]

No I am confident that Christ is abiding in me.

Did the judge tell you that?

 

[BBAS 64]

If salvation was against our cooperation wouldn’t that be forced?

Good Day, BRN32

You presume cooperation is needed, and that of own own volition and natural ability we do it.

Edwards on this question:

John Edwards (1637–1716) on Human Free Choice and Divine Necessity

RC Sproul on the question:

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace

 

[BBAS 64]

RC Sproul:

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day, BRN32

You presume cooperation is needed, and that of own own volition and natural ability we do it.

Edwards on this question:

John Edwards (1637–1716) on Human Free Choice and Divine Necessity

View attachment 270253

RC Sproul on the question:

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace

I’m aware of what the reformed churches teach my friend, I politely disagree with them. I’m more inclined to believe the early church writings.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

 

[BBAS 64]

I’m aware of what the reformed churches teach my friend, I politely disagree with them. I’m more inclined to believe the early church writings.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

Good Day,

Ok fair enough... so you would agree the question of supposed force and required cooperation are explained in historical reformed theology you just happen to disagree?

In Him,

Bill

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day,

Ok fair enough... so you would agree the question of supposed force and required cooperation are explained in historical reformed theology you just happen to disagree?

In Him,

Bill

I suppose, but then again it depends on who your talking. It’s been my experience that reformed theologians are forced to come up with a wide variety of doctrinal “patches” to plug the holes in reformed theology, mostly attributed to the “TULIP” doctrines. For example evenescent grace and salvific grace. Evenescent grace in my opinion seems to suggest that God sometimes plays games with some people by granting them the ability to believe the gospel and have faith but only temporarily. This seems rather odd to me that God would choose to bestow such a grace upon a person whom He has not predestined to salvation. This idea just doesn’t make any sense to me, along with many other implications that go along with the TULIP doctrines.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No I am confident that Christ is abiding in me.

then what role does you effort play in your eternal destiny?

 

[BNR32FAN]

then what role does you effort play in your eternal destiny?

I can always choose to disregard the Holy Spirit’s guidance and thus grieve the Holy Spirit which if done repeatedly and unrepentantly will result in receiving the wrath of God.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You’ll have to ask the judge.

As far as He has revealed in His word, He only accepts perfection.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I can always choose to disregard the Holy Spirit’s guidance and thus grieve the Holy Spirit which if done repeatedly and unrepentantly will result in receiving the wrath of God.

How have you arrived at that conclusion?

 

[BNR32FAN]

How have you arrived at that conclusion?

By reading from Ephesians 4:25 to Ephesians 5:6

“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[jimmyjimmy]

By reading from Ephesians 4:25 to Ephesians 5:6

“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Are Christians, "sons of disobedience"?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are Christians, "sons of disobedience"?

The word Christian means Christ like. A person is acting like a Christian when they are acting like Christ. Any person can act like satan himself if they choose. Like Paul said in his epistle to the believers in Rome

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

We are a servant of the master of whom we serve.

 

[Hammster]

The word Christian means Christ like. A person is acting like a Christian when they are acting like Christ. Any person can act like satan himself if they choose. Like Paul said in his epistle to the believers in Rome

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

We are a servant of the master of whom we serve.

Paul doesn’t mention loss of salvation in this passage.

 

[bling]

It's a simple question, which requires a simple, Yes or No, answer.

If you have to have a one-word answer than the answer is “Yes”, but it is God’s “Love” that has to be accepted by a mature adult and not just the “part” of His Love, which is the “salvation”. The immature can go to heaven without actually accepting “salvation”, since they are sinless and not in need salvation, but are in a safe condition. Unfortunately, the immature heaven bound will not have fulfilled their earthly objective.

1. If God “forced” an unwilling person to accept His Love, which includes “salvation”, that would not be Loving on God’s part and the “Love” received would not be Godly type Love, since Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive (robotic) to man. It would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun.

2. It would be unjust of God to try to “force” His Love on some and not all, so God is doing or allowing all He can to help those still willing to accept His Love to do so, that “all” includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death and even sin.

3. If a person who has repeatedly refused to accept being Loved unconditionally, unselfishly and sacrificially to the point they will never accept such a Love (which God can know), then they would be very unhappy in heaven, where the huge Love Feast is only of Godly type Love. God does not want people in heaven to be unhappy.

4. Man’s objective while on earth requires the acceptance of Godly type Love.

 

[Gr8Grace]

It's a simple question, which requires a simple, Yes or No, answer.

What's the bible say?

Acts 16:31~~ the jailor asked what he must do to be saved. Paul answered, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.."

The bible never says God asks for permission to save us.......It does say, many times, that He saves those who BELIEVE. And those who do not believe are condemned.

The calvins falsely claim that those who believe are chosen and regenerated to believe in Him......So on that premise, yes, He calls us to personally believe with our God given volition and He will then save us.

It's not about God asking us for permission to save us. It's about His plan to save us (Believe on His Son) and if we believe it...........He WILL save us.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The word Christian means Christ like. A person is acting like a Christian when they are acting like Christ. Any person can act like satan himself if they choose. Like Paul said in his epistle to the believers in Rome

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

We are a servant of the master of whom we serve.

You've already said that you don't obey God's Law, "perfectly", so, by your own definition above. . .

 

[corinth77777]

It's a simple question, which requires a simple, Yes or No, answer.

To save you from what?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You've already said that you don't obey God's Law, "perfectly", so, by your own definition above. . .

The point was that all Christians serve God sometimes and server satan sometimes.