Does God Love Everyone?

[Iosias]

Let me get this straight. It is your position that God loves some people with an everlasting love and others with a temporary love? Please tell me that I totally misunderstood your point.

Cyg and I have been over and over and over this hence we just "ignore" each other on the issue now

 

[Reformationist]

Cyg and I have been over and over and over this hence we just "ignore" each other on the issue now

Is that really what he meant though? Is his position based on the premise of eternal love vs. temporary love??

 

[BBAS 64]

Let me get this straight. It is your position that God loves some people with an everlasting love and others with a temporary love? Please tell me that I totally misunderstood your point.



LOL! Seriously? Are you just playing the devil's advocate or do you actually believe that the love of an Almighty God is purposed simply to bless someone He never intended to gather unto Himself?



What I'm saying, cyg, is that the love of God as expressed in the Bible isn't revealed as some nonsensical temporary love that is purposed only to "grant them many blessings." The love of God has, at its center, His desire and intent to gather unto Himself the objects of His love, for time everlasting.

God bless

Good day, Ref

I think the point is .... and I say this with all respect to you.

It is possible for God just like us, to have differnet "kinds" of love I love my son, and his best friend. They are not the same "kinds" of love nor are they expressed in the same way.

My mom, and my wife
My daughter, and my sister

Those who are not the elect, are allowed to live and breathe it is an expression of God love (non-Salvivic) that he allows this to happen.

Hope that helps,

In Him.

Bill

 

[Reformationist]

Good day, Ref

Good day Bill.

I think the point is .... and I say this with all respect to you.

It is possible for God just like us, to have differnet "kinds" of love I love my son, and his best friend. They are not the same "kinds" of love nor are they expressed in the same way.

My mom, and my wife
My daughter, and my sister

Those who are not the elect, are allowed to live and breathe it is an expression of God love (non-Salvivic) that he allows this to happen.

Hope that helps,

In Him.

Bill

I respond with all respect to you as well but, sorry, this doesn't help a bit. "Love" is a word we use to describe many different things in our fallen intellect, because we are incapable of a true, and uncorrupted love. God is not limited as we are and has a purpose in all that He does and, unlike us, that purpose cannot be withheld from Him. You may love both your son and his friend and have every intent to, lovingly, develop them the way you'd like to see happen. You are impotent to ensure that your love has the desired effect. God is not.

Biblical love is the act of giving the object of your actions that which they most need to be conformed to the image of Christ with no regard to one's self. God is not punishing the wicked with a loving intent to conform them. He may extend them His grace but, again, to equate that to "love" is inappropriate and irresponsible, imo. He may be longsuffering, reserving His wrath until He has gathered all of His elect but, again, to equate that to "love" is inappropriate and irresponsible.

The "different kinds of love" theory is neither biblically supported nor sensible.

God bless

 

[Iosias]

The "different kinds of love" theory is neither biblically supported nor sensible.

 

[Iosias]

Is that really what he meant though? Is his position based on the premise of eternal love vs. temporary love??

As I understand Cyg, God loves the elect from everlasting and he loves the reprobate between fall and Christ's second coming to judge the quick and the dead.

 

[mlqurgw]

I am absolutely convinced that God's "kindness", patience and care of the reprobate is for the good of His elect only. He brings them into the world and places them in whatever position they are in and uses them to do good to His people and the glory of His name. The Scriptures are clear that they are objects of His wrath not His love. John 3:36 It doesn't say that the wrath of God will abide on them but already does. I have already given a few passages to show this, Isa. 43:4, Psa. 57:2, Prov. 16:4, 2Cor. 4:15, Rom. 8:28. If God doesn't intend to use the reprobate sinner to bring glory to His name and good to His elect He doesn't bring them into the world. The "good things" He gives them are not for them but for His people in some way. They all serve Him and His elect.

 

[JM]

I am absolutely convinced that God's "kindness", patience and care of the reprobate is for the good of His elect only. He brings them into the world and places them in whatever position they are in and uses them to do good to His people and the glory of His name. The Scriptures are clear that they are objects of His wrath not His love. John 3:36 It doesn't say that the wrath of God will abide on them but already does. I have already given a few passages to show this, Isa. 43:4, Psa. 57:2, Prov. 16:4, 2Cor. 4:15, Rom. 8:28. If God doesn't intend to use the reprobate sinner to bring glory to His name and good to His elect He doesn't bring them into the world. The "good things" He gives them are not for them but for His people in some way. They all serve Him and His elect.

That's my understanding as well.

 

[cygnusx1]

Let me get this straight. It is your position that God loves some people with an everlasting love and others with a temporary love? Please tell me that I totally misunderstood your point.

yes you understand my view , the elect and they only can lay claim to being loved with an "everlasting" love.

LOL! Seriously? Are you just playing the devil's advocate or do you actually believe that the love of an Almighty God is purposed simply to bless someone He never intended to gather unto Himself?

sure God loves some only for a season , just as His will dictates.

you have read the scriptures ?



Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

If God can remove His wrath from sinners , then God can and does remove His love from sinners , deny this and you either disagree with God's definition of Love (1 Corinthians 13) or you must maintain sinners are in no worse , and no better a situation on earth than they are in hell....ie, that God is still patient and kind to those in hell!




King Saul


2Sam.7

[1]
Now when the king dwelt in his house, and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies round about,

[2] the king said to Nathan the prophet, "See now, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the ark of God dwells in a tent."
[3] And Nathan said to the king, "Go, do all that is in your heart; for the LORD is with you."
[4]
But that same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan,

[5] "Go and tell my servant David, `Thus says the LORD: Would you build me a house to dwell in?
[6] I have not dwelt in a house since the day I brought up the people of Israel from Egypt to this day, but I have been moving about in a tent for my dwelling.
[7] In all places where I have moved with all the people of Israel, did I speak a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, saying, "Why have you not built me a house of cedar?"'
[8] Now therefore thus you shall say to my servant David, `Thus says the LORD of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, that you should be prince over my people Israel;
[9] and I have been with you wherever you went, and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make for you a great name, like the name of the great ones of the earth.
[10] And I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and violent men shall afflict them no more, as formerly,
[11] from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover the LORD declares to you that the LORD will make you a house.
[12] When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
[13] He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
[14] I will be his father, and he shall be my son. When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men;
[15] but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.
[16] And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever.'"
[17] In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.
[18]
Then King David went in and sat before the LORD, and said, "Who am I, O Lord GOD, and what is my house, that thou hast brought me thus far?

[19] And yet this was a small thing in thy eyes, O Lord GOD; thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come, and hast shown me future generations, O Lord GOD!
[20] And what more can David say to thee? For thou knowest thy servant, O Lord GOD!
[21] Because of thy promise, and according to thy own heart, thou hast wrought all this greatness, to make thy servant know it.
[22] Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, and there is no God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
[23] What other nation on earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name, and doing for them great and terrible things, by driving out before his people a nation and its gods?
[24] And thou didst establish for thyself thy people Israel to be thy people for ever; and thou, O LORD, didst become their God.
[25] And now, O LORD God, confirm for ever the word which thou hast spoken concerning thy servant and concerning his house, and do as thou hast spoken;
[26] and thy name will be magnified for ever, saying, `The LORD of hosts is God over Israel,' and the house of thy servant David will be established before thee.
[27] For thou, O LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, hast made this revelation to thy servant, saying, `I will build you a house'; therefore thy servant has found courage to pray this prayer to thee.
[28] And now, O Lord GOD, thou art God, and thy words are true, and thou hast promised this good thing to thy servant;
[29] now therefore may it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee; for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken, and with thy blessing shall the house of thy servant be blessed for ever."

also ;

In verse 21 (Jude is only one chapter), he writes, "...keep yourselves in the love of God."


such an expression is meaningless if men can never depart from the love of God .

What I'm saying, cyg, is that the love of God as expressed in the Bible isn't revealed as some nonsensical temporary love that is purposed only to "grant them many blessings." The love of God has, at its center, His desire and intent to gather unto Himself the objects of His love, for time everlasting.

God bless

straw man bro , it is your assumption that God's love is "nonesensical" if it doesn't save ...


here one of the greatest puritans ;

Thomas Manton on Common Love.


​

[4.] If they are committed against love. It is sad to sin against God’s laws, it is more to sin against God’s love. Suppose it be but against common love, against God that giveth us food and raiment, rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons. The apostle calls this a ‘ despising the goodness of God,’ Rom. 2:4, either by employing it to vile uses, or else by a careless slighting and not taking notice of it. You that slight the kindness of God do as it were say, God shall not gain me to his ways for all this. Every sin is not committed against knowledge, but every sin is against love and bowels. Christ may say to every sinner, as he said to the Jews, John 10:32, ‘Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me?’ Thus the Lord may plead, I have given you protection and provision, and food and raiment, for which of these do you violate my law and put such an affront upon me? It is I that have been so liberal to you, in giving you the fruits of the earth, the fish of the sea, the fowls of the air; it is I that have caused your sheep to bring forth thousands, and your fields to yield meat; and will you return upon me with my own weapons? Malefactors are punished in the same things in which they offend, and you seek to do me despite by my own blessings, as if I did you wrong when I did you good. But much more if you sin against special love. You that are Christ’s favorites, every sin of yours is as a stab at the heart of mercy; as when the multitude forsook him, says Christ to his disciples, John 6:61, ‘Will ye also go away?’ That went to his heart. God reckons upon you that he shall have much service and obedience from you, and disappointment is the worst kind of vexation: Gen. 18:19, ‘ I know Abraham, that he will command his children, and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord;’ Isa. 63:8,’ Surely they are my people, children that will not lie.’ That which in others is but single fornication in you is adultery; others sin against common mercies, but you against the bowels of Christ; they are not thankful for a piece of bread, nor you for the bread of life. As Absalom said to Hushai, 2 Sam. 16:17, ‘ Is this thy kindness to thy friend? ‘ so is this the fruit of all those tender loves and mercies which God hath meted out to you ? It is unnatural, as if a hen should bring forth the egg of a crow.

Thomas Manton, “Sermons Upon Genesis 24:63,” Sermon 8, in Works, 17:329.

​

 

[Reformationist]

Cyg, your position is one of the more untenable I've ever heard on this subject and I hope you come to better conclusions on the doctrines in the future. For the time being, I'll simply wish you well and count you, with all esteem, as my brother in Christ, and a learned brother at that.

God bless

 

[cubanito]

Does God love everybody?

Only God knows. Who are we to think that our minds can encompass His, or our spirit search the entirety of His?

The Bible clearly states He hates some. It aslo says He makes the sun rise and the rains fall on the fields of the ungodly as He does on the god fearing. He also said to Love our enemies, and we see Jesus being moved with compassion even for those who turn away (the rich young ruler).

We also see God's compassion even on such as Cain, so at least at some point, God responds to the prayers of the ungodly, even though He does not respond to the prayers of the ungodly.

Does this fit nice and neat into some systematic box?

No.

God is God, and we are not.

This is where sometimes we Presbys go wrong, especially such as Gordon Clark. No, God does NOT have to fit within the bounds of logic. No, all of God does NOT have to make sense to us.

God is God, and we are not. He has Graciously allowed some of His Magnificense to be comprehensible to us. But to think that because you can understand the tail of the elephant in the box that you understand the elephant is laughable. Truth is Absolute, and some of it is understandable. But not all of it.

God id God, His answer to why there is evil is not some well-reasoned argument: it is the bloody, scandalous, barbaric, messy, unreasonable Cross.

I have 4 kids. Sometimes when they balked at getting a shot I would take an empty syringe and jab it into myself, to show them I was willing to take my medicine too (I'm a physician, there was no danger). This is God's answer why we need a shot, to take His own medicine, to the dregs.

God is God, you can only understand so much of God. If you understood all of what you considered to be god, it would be a false god.

We presbys need to make a place for the mysterious again, without denying that which is comprehensible.

JR

 

[cygnusx1]

Rutherford on General Love


Rutherford on General Love:


We are hence taught to acknowledge no love to be in God, which is not effectual in doing good to the creature; there is no lip-love, no raw well-wishing to the creature which God doth not make good: we know but three sorts of love, that God has to the creature, all the three are like the fruitful womb; there is no miscarrying, no barrenness in the womb of divine love;


1. He loves all that he has made; so far as to give them a being, to conserve them in being so long as he pleaseth: he had a desire to have Sun, Moon, Stars, Earth, Heaven, Sea, Cloud, Air; he created them out of the womb of love, and out of goodness, and keeps them in being…

2. There is a second love and mercy, in God, by which he loves all Men and Angels; yea, even his enemies, makes the Sun to shine on the unjust man, as well as the just, and causes dew and rain to fall on the orchard and fields of the bloody and deceitful man, whom the Lord abhors; as Christ teacheth us, (Matt. 5:43-48). Nor doth God miscarry in this love, he desires the eternal being of damned angels and men; he sends the Gospel to many reprobates, and invites them to repentance and with longanimity and forbearance suffereth pieces of froward dust to fill the measure of their iniquity, yet does not the Lord’s general love fall short of what he willeth to them.

3. There is a love of special election to glory; far less can God come short in the end of this love…


Samuel Rutherford, Christ Dying and Drawing Sinners to Himself, (London, J.D. for Andrew Crook at the Green-Dragon in Paul’s Church Yard, 1647) 476-7. (some copies, p. 440-441, due to faulty numbering) Also cited by David Silversides, The Free Offer: Biblical & Reformed (Marpet Press, 2005), p. 46-47.
The copy I have, has this comment on pp 440-441.
Some things to note:
1) There it is again, the three-fold view of love.
2) Note the reference to Matt 5:45. Many hypercalvinists deny that we can infer from the connection Jesus established between man’s love to all and God’s mercy and doing good to all, that God, therefore, loves all.

3) Rutherford was a supralapsarian, and still could affirm this doctrine.


​

 

[JM]

cyg, what's the point...are you trying to drown out the other posters? Why? The true irony...you wearing the bag over your head [your sig]. lol

 

[cygnusx1]

cyg, what's the point...are you trying to drown out the other posters? Why? The true irony...you wearing the bag over your head [your sig]. lol

mmmm a list of questions !

here's a book many wondering over this question might enjoy ; btw , I like Carson , alot.

The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God
By: D.A. Carson


http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1011693&item_no=41263

 

[JM]

mmmm a list of questions !

here's a book many wondering over this question might enjoy ; btw , I like Carson , alot.

The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God
By: D.A. Carson


http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1011693&item_no=41263

Here's one for you:

And just for [a little more] fun:

 

[cygnusx1]

Here's one for you:

And just for [a little more] fun:

see I knew you could find a new angle !

 

[cygnusx1]

gotta love these Calvinist Puritans ;



Jenkyn on God's Love


"1. There is a love of God to man, though without passion, sympathy, or any imperfection or weakness; these being attributed to him only to relieve the weakness either of our faith or apprehensions. And this love is,

(1.) Considered as a love of desire; as love desires to be carried to the union of the thing beloved. This desire of union with man God shows many ways; as 1. By being near unto, nay, present with him, by his universal care and providence; he being "not far from every one of us: for in him we live," &c., Acts xvii. 27, 28. 2. By assuming the nature of man into a personal conjunction with himself in the Mediator, Christ. 3. By conversing with man by signs of his presence, extraordinary visions, dreams, oracles, inspiration; and ordinarily by his holy ordinances, wherewith his people, as it were, abide with him in his house. 4. By sending his Holy Spirit to dwell in man, and bestowing upon man the Divine nature. 5. By taking man into an eternal habitation in heaven, where he shall be ever in his glorious presence, Psal. xvi. 11.

(2.) There is a love of God to man, considered as a love of benevolence, or of good-will, or of willingness to do good to the thing beloved: what else was his eternal purpose to have mercy upon his people, and of saving them, but, as it is expressed concerning Jacob, this loving them? Rom. ix. 13. And to whom can a will of doing good so properly agree, as to Him, whose will is goodness itself?

(3.) There is a love of God to man, considered as a love of beneficence, bounty, or actual doing good to the thing beloved. Thus he bestows the effects of his love, both for this life, and for that which is to come. And the beneficence of God is called love; "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God," 1 John iii. 1. And John iii. 16, "God so loved the world, that he gave," &c. By this love of beneficence he bestows the good things of nature, grace, and glory. God does good to every creature, hating, though the iniquity of any one, yet the nature of none; for the being of every creature is good, Gen. i. 31, and God has adorned it with many excellent qualities. According to these loves of benevolence and beneficence, God loves not his creatures equally, but some more than others; inasmuch as he wills to bestow, and also actually bestows, greater blessings upon some than upon others. He makes and preserves all creatures, but his love is more especially afforded to mankind; he styles himself from his love to man, Tit. iii. 4, and not from his love to angels, or any other creature. He is called φιλάνθρωπος, a lover of man, but never φιλάγγελος, or φιλόκτιστος, a friend of angels or creatures without man. His love is yet more peculiarly extended to man in creating him after his own image, Gen. i. 27, and in giving him lordship over the creatures, Psal. viii. 5; in giving his Son to take upon him man's nature, Heb. ii. 16, and exalt it above heavens (Matt. xxviii. 18) and angels, to die for sinning, dying man; offering him to man in the dispensation of the gospel with wooing and beseechings. And yet of men he loves some more especially and peculiarly than others; namely, those whom he loves with an electing, calling, redeeming, justifying, glorifying love. God loves all creatures, and among them the rational, and among them the members of his Son, and much more the Son himself.

(4.) There is a love of God to man, considered as a love of complacency, and delight in the thing beloved. He is pleased through his Son with his servants; and he is much delighted with his own image wheresoever he finds it. He is pleased with the persons and performances of his people: "He hath made us accepted in the Beloved." "The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear him," Psal. cxlvii. 11. They reflected his excellencies, and showing forth his virtues; he rejoicing over them with joy, and resting in his love, Zeph. iii. 17: accounting a believer amiable; his soul, a lesser heaven; his prayers, melody; his sighs, incense; his stammerings, eloquence; his desires, performances."

William Jenkyn, An Exposition Upon the Epistle of Jude (James & Klock, 1976), p. 36.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cyg, your position is one of the more untenable I've ever heard on this subject and I hope you come to better conclusions on the doctrines in the future. For the time being, I'll simply wish you well and count you, with all esteem, as my brother in Christ, and a learned brother at that.

God bless

i don't know whether i should shake you by the hand or by the neck bro !! jk

cyg notices no interaction with the texts quoted , anyone can go back through this thread and see several posters overlooking key texts like they haven't read them...... here's one biggy ;

Rom 11

national jews

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[Elect]

Had a question asked of me the other day, "does God love everyone?" I didn't answer right away because I wanted to look up some of the Scriptures that referred to wrath and God (righteously) hating Esau, vessels made for destruction, etc. What I found was that God has love for his own, but not for all mankind.

Arminianism requires God to love everyone in order to maintain that Christ died for all. And then the tap dancing begins with God "loving Esau less" and wrath retranslated into sadness at placing the unbeliever in hell, or just saying that the unregenerate choose hell for themselves in order to let God (and their theology) off the hook. God created us, therefore God must love us. We are supposed to love everyone, therefore God is supposed to love everyone.

But I just don't see a common love of God for everyone in the Bible. I see a King who is a loving Father for those in His kingdom, but not everyone is in his kingdom. Your thoughts?

You are 100% right. God does not have two loves. One that saves and one that does not. The Bible says that the love of God is found in Christ and those that are not in Christ, the wrath of God abides on them. Those that are in Christ have been in Christ before the foundation of the world. Any and all so called good things that happen to the reprobate works against them in the day of judgement. the love of God for everyone and common grace are not Biblical. God's love is directed at His elect and there is nothing common about the grace of God. God creates with a purpose and the reprobate were also created for a purpose and they, no matter how good their life may be, have no hope and I mean NO HOPE! They were created by God and they are rejected and hated by God!

John

 

[cygnusx1]

You are 100% right. God does not have two loves. One that saves and one that does not. The Bible says that the love of God is found in Christ and those that are not in Christ, the wrath of God abides on them. Those that are in Christ have been in Christ before the foundation of the world. Any and all so called good things that happen to the reprobate works against them in the day of judgement. the love of God for everyone and common grace are not Biblical. God's love is directed at His elect and there is nothing common about the grace of God. God creates with a purpose and the reprobate were also created for a purpose and they, no matter how good their life may be, have no hope and I mean NO HOPE! They were created by God and they are rejected and hated by God!

John

I will attempt a new approach

Hi John would you say it is easy to love your enemies ?


turning the other cheek , repaying good for evil , going the extra mile , and praying for those who HATE and persecute you ?