Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

[Bible Highlighter]

That's very cool, thanks for sharing that...

I also think since he is "all" of them, he can be or appear as "any" of them...

Not sure what you mean by appearing as all of them.
I just believe that the individual that went by the title called: "The Messenger of the Lord" was a Pre-Incarnate appearance of Jesus in the Old Testament.

I do not believe Jesus took on the appearance of different individuals as a means to hide his identity. Jesus had only one identity in the OT. I believe this was the Messenger of the Lord; And "The Messenger of the Lord" is Jesus.

Take Revelation for example, He (Christ) speaks to the "angels" (notice he addresses the "angels" primarily) anyways, the angels that are over the seven congregations, He speaks to them as different, a different being, to each one of them, I find that interesting...

God Bless!

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that Jesus took on the identity of these angels?
If that is what you are saying, then I do not believe that.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Jason. You had many confusing replies, may I try and complain it simply? God is Ghost and God is everywhere. Part of God`s Ghost is Jesus God`s Son, Jesus became Man and died for us, and paid for all our sins.
The third part is the Holy Ghost, He lives on Earth and guides and helps us to Know Christ and follow Christ.
Those three parts of Ghost are also called God, God-Father, God-Son- the Christ,and God Holy- Spirit, who lives in the world to help and guide us. I say this with love, Jason. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

,

God is Spirit.
God is Omnipresent.
The Father is God.
The Son of God (JESUS) is God.
The Holy Ghost is God.
Yet, each person of the Godhead (or Trinity) (i.e. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) are all one God.
For the Lord our God is one God.
Yet, there are distinctions or a plurality within God (Who is one God).

As for the Son of God: He came down as spirit into the flesh of man (from the descent of Adam) thru the virgin known as Mary. The Son of God always existed and entered the flesh of man so as to pay the price for our sins. He died on the cross for our sins and was risen three days later from the grave and ascended to enter the Holy Temple up in Heaven before the Father so as to be our Heavenly High Priest (Who intercedes on our behalf). During Jesus's Earthly ministry: Both the Father and the Holy Ghost dwelled with Him. For the Scriptures say that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily.


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[jeager016]

The Jehovah's Witnesses bible, the New World Translation, says
this:
https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/1/

"the Word was a god.

I highlighted the word "a' for emphasis.
Was the word "a" added by the W.T.B.&T.S (J.W. publishers)
or was the "a" omitted in all other translations on purpose
to trick and deceive Christians into becoming part of
Babylon the Great the false religion dooming most of mankind?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Jehovah's Witnesses bible, the New World Translation, says
this:
https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/1/

"the Word was a god.

I highlighted the word "a' for emphasis.
Was the word "a" added by the W.T.B.&T.S (J.W. publishers)
or was the "a" omitted in all other translations on purpose
to trick and deceive Christians into becoming part of
Babylon the Great the false religion dooming most of mankind?

I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I am a Christian who believes in the Holy Bible. So why would I believe your Bible? I believe in the Bible as it existed before the JW Bible came into existence.
I believe the KJV is God's perfect Word for our day
(Which is based on the Textus Receptus) for numerous reasons.
As for the 144,000: Do you really believe that you can be of that group?
These are clearly Messianic Jews (Christian Jews) and not Gentile believers.
Also, before Charles Taze Russel (In the 1800's), your religion did not exist.


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[Der Alte]

The Jehovah's Witnesses bible, the New World Translation, says
this:
https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god
[ * * * JW link omitted * * * ]
"the Word was a god.
I highlighted the word "a' for emphasis.
Was the word "a" added by the W.T.B.&T.S (J.W. publishers)
or was the "a" omitted in all other translations on purpose
to trick and deceive Christians into becoming part of
Babylon the Great the false religion dooming most of mankind?

If you are a member of the Jehovah Witnesses you are not permitted to post in this forum. See this note at top of forum. Link:[All read LDS and JW Threads]
The absence of the definite article in Greek does not in and of itself make a word indefinite.
In addition to John 1:1, the Greek word "Theos" occurs three more times in John 1 without the definite article, vss. 6, 12 and 13, and the NWT does not translate them as "a God." Those who are deceived are the disciples of John Taze Russell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Der Alter,

Are you honestly accusing me of being a JW? As long as I've been posting here you've accused me of being an Arian and other 'things' but this is the first time you ever accused me of being a Jehovah's Witness.

For the record, I am 'not' affiliated nor do I follow the Jehovah's Witnesses. I am affiliated with 'no denomination'. It's me and my Bible. Very simple. I do not accept what many refer to as 'church fathers' being actual representatives of 'the' Church if what they offer is contrary to the words of Christ or His apostles.

We've been through this many times before. I believe in ONE God who is the 'Father' of Christ. And I believe in 'one and ONLY one begotten: Son of God: Jesus Christ. I do not believe in 'three persons' that make up 'one God'. The Bible plainly offers that there are 'no other Gods beside' the one 'true' God. Christ sits at the 'right hand' of God. If He is 'God the Son', that makes 'two God's', and no amount of 'made up theology' is going to alter that 'truth'.

There is 'one God'. And God is often referred to as The Father. Both our heavenly Father and the Father of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

When Christ uttered His last words, they were: "My God, my God, why hath thou forsaken me?" This makes it perfectly clear that He was 'not' speaking to Himself. He was speaking to His Father: God.

Once more, for the record: I am 'not' a Jehovah's Witness, nor am I a follower of Arius though we certainly have similar understanding. I have believed what I believe long before ever knowing who Arius was or anything about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Blessings,

MEC

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7).

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Genesis 1:26).

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19).

" Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he [i.e. Jesus] hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33).

" How God [i.e. God the Father] anointed Jesus of Nazareth [i.e. God the Son] with the Holy Ghost [i.e. God the Holy Spirit] and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." (Acts 10:38).

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." (2 Corinthians 13:14).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1).

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" (John 14:16).

"Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3:21-22).

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man [i.e. God the Son] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days [i.e. God the Father], and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13-14).


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[Jack Terrence]

Der Alter,

Are you honestly accusing me of being a JW? As long as I've been posting here you've accused me of being an Arian and other 'things' but this is the first time you ever accused me of being a Jehovah's Witness.

All JW's are Arians. But not all Arians are JWs.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter,
Are you honestly accusing me of being a JW? As long as I've been posting here you've accused me of being an Arian and other 'things' but this is the first time you ever accused me of being a Jehovah's Witness.
For the record, I am 'not' affiliated nor do I follow the Jehovah's Witnesses. I am affiliated with 'no denomination'. It's me and my Bible. Very simple. I do not accept what many refer to as 'church fathers' being actual representatives of 'the' Church if what they offer is contrary to the words of Christ or His apostles....
Blessings,
MEC

Might want to get your eyes checked. My post which you quoted was addressed to Jeager016 who quoted from and linked to the JW translation the NWT.

 

[Stillicidia]

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[jeager016]

All JW's are Arians. But not all Arians are JWs.

Are you saying all J.W.'s are Aryan?
I thought there were plenty of J.W.'s that were of all races, creeds,
origins, etc.
Perhaps you need google that?
I'm not, nor have ever been a baptized J.W.
I'm familiar with the teaching from reading on line articles.
A cousin in Florida is a J.W. as is his wife.
Nice folks they are.

 

[Der Alte]

Are you saying all J.W.'s are Aryan?
I thought there were plenty of J.W.'s that were of all races, creeds,
origins, etc.
Perhaps you need google that?
I'm not, nor have ever been a baptized J.W.
I'm familiar with the teaching from reading on line articles.
A cousin in Florida is a J.W. as is his wife.
Nice folks they are.

"Aryans," with a "y," were chosen as Hitler's master race. "Arians," with an "i,"were followers of Arius, a 3rd century heretic whose teachings were denounced at the Nicaean council in 325 AD.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your list are things only a spirit can do, you speak on items done after he was a man. As a man he required the father, after a man, he could do all those things. He did not do number 1 on his own. Yes Jesus receives worship, you don't even know the significance of what you're arguing when it comes to man or spirit. Should sooner call him god than spirit even.

I put forth verses that show that God is three in one.
It is up to you to actually tell me what they are really saying.
But the trick is that you have to use the context and or cross references to prove your point, though.


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[jeager016]

"Aryans," with a "y," were chosen as Hitler's master race. "Arians," with an "i,"were followers of Arius, a 3rd century heretic whose teachings were denounced at the Nicaean council in 325 AD.

Hey THANKS I didn't know that.
Much appreciated.

 

[jeager016]

So was some member here saying all J.W.'s are white folks?
"52% of the Witness' membership are non-white"
What other religious denomination makes a similar claim?
I'm asking as I don't know.
What percentage of ...................say...........Catholics are non white?
What percentage of Catholics are black in the U.S.???
Curious is all.

 

[Stillicidia]

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[Bible Highlighter]

In the days of the greater works than jesus, you speak to a mountain get thee hence and it will fly into the ocean. Why can't we do that now, do you wonder, do you care? We only have power that god gives us. Jesus wrought works, but they were all done by the father working in him.

Father is the soul, the holy spirit is spirit, jesus is flesh, of all three we are made. Flesh on its own can't do spiritual works. Let teaching of the soul blow over your head, in that we are made up of in layers, like an onion, ogres are like onions. The spirit is also a part of us along with the soul, and we also have flesh. People yet worry over the trinity. If you don't care to understand these basic things, don't quote me.

That is not really an explanation to the verses I put forth. Please explain what each of them are saying. Then we can go on from there.

Thank you.


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[Stillicidia]

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[Neogaia777]

Not sure what you mean by appearing as all of them.

He (Christ, God) being, or having spent time being, or as "All" of them, for this is what God is, could be, or appear as "any" of them, God cannot appear as God to any of us, for no one can see God and live, and no one has seen God at any time, except for one of the three members of the trinity, because they are as He is, that is "all" of everything and anything, and no one can see what this is, nor can God appear as this to anyone.

Therefore, if he is going to appear, he must appear as something less than he actually is, so, he will take on a form that is less than what he actually is, to communicate to us, or even to angels (all created beings), he will more than likely choose a form that he decides is best suited to/for the message he is trying to convey, and that the recipient of the message can best understand or comprehend, and this will more than likely, be a different form, for each individual and best suited to what he is trying to convey to that individual.

Which will, more than likely, be different for each individual recipient (each created being) and he will work within the limits of that created beings limited understanding, and unique understanding (unique for each created individual) and will choose a form best suited by that criteria, for he cannot not appear to any of us in his true form...

I just believe that the individual that went by the title called: "The Messenger of the Lord" was a Pre-Incarnate appearance of Jesus in the Old Testament.

Could have been, see above...

I do not believe Jesus took on the appearance of different individuals as a means to hide his identity.

No, not to hide it, see (read) above....

Jesus had only one identity in the OT.

Your right, as "God", but he could not appear to any of us in this form, see (read) above...

I believe this was the Messenger of the Lord; And "The Messenger of the Lord" is Jesus.

Could have been him, or it could have been one of his obedient holy angels (servants/messengers) perfectly following, obeying, and carrying out his will, good luck trying to distinguish between the two... (See (read) above)

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that Jesus took on the identity of these angels?

Maybe, maybe not, (previously explained), (see above)...

If that is what you are saying, then I do not believe that.

(previously explained) (see above)

God Bless!

 

[sparow]

In what way do you think my view of the Trinity is unbiblical?
I do not believe In Modalism.
(I believe that each person of the Godhead is distinctly their own person).
I believe that the Lord our God is one God.
I believe that each person of the Godhead is God (i.e. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost).
I believe each person of the Godhead (or Trinity) is divinely God in essence or being.
I believe each person of the Godhead (or Trinity) is eternal and uncreated.

As for the Nicene creed:
My focus of study is the Bible and not church history.
Men can be corrupt or corrupted;
And man made documents can be altered or changed.
But the Word of God endures forever.
Therefore, my authority is the Bible and not some creed or document written by men.
This does not mean I am against all of the Nicene creed per say.
I am just not a student of it, and I could really care less about it.
For creeds are not my authority.
God's Word is my authority.
But please show me how my view of the Trinity is different than this document.
Is it because I believe there is a hierarchy (in terms of authority only) amongst the Godhead? Meaning, are you saying it is wrong for me to believe that when Jesus said that the Father was greater than Him, He was speaking only in terms of authority and not in essence or being?
Or are you talking about something else?


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Any difference between us seams to be petty. There is a doctrine or teaching of the Trinity (Godhead) that is essentially Pagan and therefore false; when you use the word trinity I assume you are talking about that. You seem to be using a version of the false trinity that has it's intestines removed so to contain nothing offensive or false; the problem here is the false doctrine originally displaced something that was true; disembowelling the false doctrine does not replace what was displaced. I believe the false doctrine is part of a package that displaces the Law of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Any difference between us seams to be petty. There is a doctrine or teaching of the Trinity (Godhead) that is essentially Pagan and therefore false; when you use the word trinity I assume you are talking about that. You seem to be using a version of the false trinity that has it's intestines removed so to contain nothing offensive or false; the problem here is the false doctrine originally displaced something that was true; disembowelling the false doctrine does not replace what was displaced. I believe the false doctrine is part of a package that displaces the Law of God.

So do you believe there are three separate Gods? Are you saying there is no one God who exists as three distinct persons? If so, well the three separate gods view is similar to Mormonism. The Lord our God (who is one) is simply triune.

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