Does God Hate the Reprobate?

[phoenixdem]

Going back to the original topic, I came across an interesting idea reading a sermon by an independent fundamentalist Baptist.I don't think I agree with it (I am still mulling it over) but i wanted to throw it out here for discussion.

If each person of the Trinity is a separate person, isn't it possible that each person has different likes, dislikes, emphasis, etc? God the Father emphasises justice. It is why he gave the law. If man is sin, is it not possible that the father hates all the unsaved? Is it not the Father who said, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated"? After a sinner is converted by the power of the Holy spirit, then God loves him/her. Jesus Christ emphasises mercy and love. He loves all mankind, reprobate and Elect. That is why He is the one who became incarnate to die for our sins. As for the Holy Spirit, I can't figure out who he hates, or loves, under this paradigm.

Anyways, I am still mulling this over but I don't know if I agree with it. What are the thoughts of the Calvinists/Reformed Baptists here?

They think alike. They don't have separate likes and dislikes. Had that preacher been ingesting strange substances?

 

[twin1954]

Going back to the original topic, I came across an interesting idea reading a sermon by an independent fundamentalist Baptist.I don't think I agree with it (I am still mulling it over) but i wanted to throw it out here for discussion.

If each person of the Trinity is a separate person, isn't it possible that each person has different likes, dislikes, emphasis, etc? God the Father emphasises justice. It is why he gave the law. If man is sin, is it not possible that the father hates all the unsaved? Is it not the Father who said, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated"? After a sinner is converted by the power of the Holy spirit, then God loves him/her. Jesus Christ emphasises mercy and love. He loves all mankind, reprobate and Elect. That is why He is the one who became incarnate to die for our sins. As for the Holy Spirit, I can't figure out who he hates, or loves, under this paradigm.

Anyways, I am still mulling this over but I don't know if I agree with it. What are the thoughts of the Calvinists/Reformed Baptists here?

It is utter nonsense. Christ said that He came to do the will of the Father which was to lose nothing of all that He gave Him but raise it up at the last day. John 6:37-40 The Triune God is one in essence and in purpose. God the Father purposed to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy, Ex. 33:18,19, choosing a people to be the objects of His love and gave then to Christ in covenant before the foundation of the world. Christ came to do the will of the Fahter and accomplished all that He set out to do saving His people from their sin. Matt. 1:21. The Spirit makes the work of Christ effectual in the hearts of all that the Father chose and the Son redeemed. John16:8-14. That is the message of the Gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Going back to the original topic, I came across an interesting idea reading a sermon by an independent fundamentalist Baptist.I don't think I agree with it (I am still mulling it over) but i wanted to throw it out here for discussion.

If each person of the Trinity is a separate person, isn't it possible that each person has different likes, dislikes, emphasis, etc? God the Father emphasises justice. It is why he gave the law. If man is sin, is it not possible that the father hates all the unsaved? Is it not the Father who said, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated"? After a sinner is converted by the power of the Holy spirit, then God loves him/her. Jesus Christ emphasises mercy and love. He loves all mankind, reprobate and Elect. That is why He is the one who became incarnate to die for our sins. As for the Holy Spirit, I can't figure out who he hates, or loves, under this paradigm.

Anyways, I am still mulling this over but I don't know if I agree with it. What are the thoughts of the Calvinists/Reformed Baptists here?

I will answer in the form of a question.
Who comes riding in on a white horse with His robe dipped in blood?

 

[phoenixdem]

I have come across a Calvinist teacher that declares that God only loves the Elect. He teaches that God hates the Reprobate. He (God) has no desire, nor ever had any desire, to save the Reprobate. His proof, besides the "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated", is the logical argument that if God had loved the reprobate, he would have saved them. Since there are many who are not saved, then God must therefore hate them.

So my question is for Calvinists. Do you agree with this? Is this standard Calvinistic doctrine? If so, is it possible to be Calvinist and yet disagree that God hates anyone?

How do we interpret this?

Psalm

5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of
iniquity.​

5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor​

the bloody and deceitful man.

 

[WinBySurrender]

I hold to the view that God loves the reprobate, but not in the same way He loves the elect. In other words, the rain falls on the just and the unjust. I think the fact that their are reprobates still drawing breath affirms this.

I had to go back to the beginning to find this. Guess I'd missed it in the initial days of the thread. But Ham is right on the mark here, in my opinion. Yes, God loves the whole world, but God can simultaneously love the sinner and hate the sinner, unlike us poor weak dumb humans who can't even conceive of that being possible. For us, it's not.

God's love is without partiality, and His hate is without malice. He would not have created something that He maliciously hates, which means He doesn't even have malice for Satan, though God knows this creature is beyond hope because, as an angel, he is not subject to redemption, only punishment. For the reprobate, not among the elect, God continues to rain love down on him, allowing him to breathe, be productive, even occasionally do good, though the reprobate has no concept of an eternal need to do it. There is purpose in all God does. As I've said before, I believe His love extends to the fact that His Son's sacrifice is sufficient for the entire world, from Adam to the last person born in the 1,000 year reign, but He had no intention of extending salvation to all. Why, I don't know. But He could if He wanted to do so. He just didn't.

 

[Hupomone10]

I have come across a Calvinist teacher that declares that God only loves the Elect.

How do we interpret this?

Psalm

5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of
iniquity.​

5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor​

the bloody and deceitful man.

ByronArn, I think verses like the above ones are all you will find describing the ones God hates. Scripture doesn't seem to say that God hates the non-elect. When it says He hates, it is like the above verse in Psalm 5, it is because of iniquity, a life of sin.

It will usually be verses of how God hates iniquity, and somehow you are supposed to get from there over to the belief of His hating the non-elect. Since we're all sinners, He can elect a group of these sinners out and choose not to hate them, then continue hating all the other sinners.

The teaching that God loves the elect and hates the non-elect seems to me to simply be trying to elevate the doctrine of choosing to such a lever that it totally overshadows the doctrine of atonement and the shed blood, and faith in that shed blood.

The only one of which I'm aware that doesn't tie it to iniquity and sin is the one regarding Esau and Jacob; and if you study the background of that Romans verse, you discover it comes from Malachi 1, which is a national application, not individual.

What God hates is iniquity, and when this word 'hate' is related to people, it is in the context of being filled with iniquity. Regarding one group righteous and another group wicked has everything to do with Christ's work and blood atonement and payment for sin, and very little to do with simply a desire calling one group 'elect' and another group 'reprobate' or 'non-elect.'

Blessings,
H.

 

[iLogos]

It is utter nonsense. Christ said that He came to do the will of the Father which was to lose nothing of all that He gave Him but raise it up at the last day. John 6:37-40 The Triune God is one in essence and in purpose. God the Father purposed to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy, Ex. 33:18,19, choosing a people to be the objects of His love and gave then to Christ in covenant before the foundation of the world. Christ came to do the will of the Fahter and accomplished all that He set out to do saving His people from their sin. Matt. 1:21. The Spirit makes the work of Christ effectual in the hearts of all that the Father chose and the Son redeemed. John16:8-14. That is the message of the Gospel.

I don't like this view because it approaches polytheism. The trinity loses being One God and becomes 3 gods under that view.

 

[Skala]

I don't like this view because it approaches polytheism. The trinity loses being One God and becomes 3 gods under that view.

I do not see how his explanation of the involvement of the 3 persons of the Godhead is closer to polytheism than the trinity.

Can you explain why you feel that way?

 

[iLogos]

I do not see how his explanation of the involvement of the 3 persons of the Godhead is closer to polytheism than the trinity.

Can you explain why you feel that way?

Well if I'm understanding him correctly, he is implying that each person has a mind of their own, I see this as being divided and God can not be divided. It approaches the view of 3 gods instead of One God.

While I can accept the 3 persons = One God = the Trinity.

The concept that the Father disliked one human, but the Holy Spirit liked that human is divided. Even Jesus asked when accused of being a devil when healing people, how can Satan be divided?

 

[Skala]

Well if I'm understanding him correctly, he is implying that each person has a mind of their own, I see this as being divided and God can not be divided. It approaches the view of 3 gods instead of One God.

While I can accept the 3 persons = One God = the Trinity.

The concept that the Father disliked one human, but the Holy Spirit liked that human is divided. Even Jesus asked when accused of being a devil when healing people, how can Satan be divided?

Where did twin say that the persons of the Godhead were divided in their thinking or efforts?

 

[iLogos]

I seemed to have replied to the wrong poster!

I was replying to this..

Originally Posted by ByronArn
Going back to the original topic, I came across an interesting idea reading a sermon by an independent fundamentalist Baptist.I don't think I agree with it (I am still mulling it over) but i wanted to throw it out here for discussion.

If each person of the Trinity is a separate person, isn't it possible that each person has different likes, dislikes, emphasis, etc? God the Father emphasises justice. It is why he gave the law. If man is sin, is it not possible that the father hates all the unsaved? Is it not the Father who said, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated"? After a sinner is converted by the power of the Holy spirit, then God loves him/her. Jesus Christ emphasises mercy and love. He loves all mankind, reprobate and Elect. That is why He is the one who became incarnate to die for our sins. As for the Holy Spirit, I can't figure out who he hates, or loves, under this paradigm.

Anyways, I am still mulling this over but I don't know if I agree with it. What are the thoughts of the Calvinists/Reformed Baptists here?

 

[Hupomone10]

I certainly don't believe in fatalism, but I do believe in determinism (there's a difference)

Hupo, why are you against determinism?

Because it's fatalistic, and not a complete description of reality according to Scripture. Although there is much that is determined, there is much that God appeals to the individual for response in.

Someone has to determine something.

Yes, They do.

Whether the creature or the Creator, someone is determining things.

It is the Creator. Except for the things He calls us to determine, and in His sovereignty leaves for us.

Why is it "bad" for the Creator to determine something but it's ok for the creature to?

It isn't. It's simply reality that God determines and man determines what God allows him to.

Is it more comforting to you when fallible, finite, sinful and wicked creatures determine things than it is for the infinitely wise and just God to do so?

No. Is it more comforting for you to try to make people who respond to you sound worse than they are so you can sound better?

Can God make any decisions in your theology?

Yes. Can you make any decisions in yours? Can you decide to obey God in any particular at all? Or is it all determined, and you are as obedient as He wants you to be and as you'll ever be?

Can God actually...you know...determine something? Can God actually sit on his throne and govern?

Already answered.

Apparently not, because that's bad.

Not according to my theology; but consider this - God just allowed you to say that and be sarcastic to a brother in the Lord!

Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne.

Men cannot stop God from being on His throne. They can rebel, they can resist, but God has the last say.

 

[Aaron_Bethlhm]

So God, for His purpose, authored a plan in which man rebells?

Welcome back ? (seen in new post today in introduction)

God saw mankind fallen, lost, hopeless, broken and wicked.

It is written someplace in His Word that He Could Not Find Even One Man seeking Him, nor able to stand in the gap, nor able to make atonement for sin.

So God Provides a Way, His Name , The Way to be Saved, Is Jesus.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

I hold to the view that God loves the reprobate, but not in the same way He loves the elect. In other words, the rain falls on the just and the unjust. I think the fact that their are reprobates still drawing breath affirms this.

With that said, I am sure there are plenty that disagree. You will find that reformed theology isn't a closed system where everyone agrees on every point. There are plenty of in-house disagreements. But that also goes for any system of theology, even for those who disagree that they even have a system.

Seeing that God hates*** those who commit iniquity[Psalms 5:5], His soul hates those who love violence [Psalms 11:5], and the seven things God hates(which also includes ppl, not just their actions[Proverbs 6:16-19, then there are vessels of wrath in Romans 9, I can’t help but believe He does hate the reprobate.

***I view this through God’s impassiblity.

I also know this post of yours is 8+ years old.

 

[wandering misfit]

Welcome back ? (seen in new post today in introduction)

God saw mankind fallen, lost, hopeless, broken and wicked.

It is written someplace in His Word that He Could Not Find Even One Man seeking Him, nor able to stand in the gap, nor able to make atonement for sin.

So God Provides a Way, His Name , The Way to be Saved, Is Jesus.

Thanks for the re-welcome. It is written that no mans seeks God, in Psalms 2x's. Man has no capacity of his own to will him/herself to redemption/salvation. We have todays age as the example.