Does God Hate the Reprobate?

[ByronArn]

I have come across a Calvinist teacher that declares that God only loves the Elect. He teaches that God hates the Reprobate. He (God) has no desire, nor ever had any desire, to save the Reprobate. His proof, besides the "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated", is the logical argument that if God had loved the reprobate, he would have saved them. Since there are many who are not saved, then God must therefore hate them.

So my question is for Calvinists. Do you agree with this? Is this standard Calvinistic doctrine? If so, is it possible to be Calvinist and yet disagree that God hates anyone?

 

[Hammster]

I hold to the view that God loves the reprobate, but not in the same way He loves the elect. In other words, the rain falls on the just and the unjust. I think the fact that their are reprobates still drawing breath affirms this.

With that said, I am sure there are plenty that disagree. You will find that reformed theology isn't a closed system where everyone agrees on every point. There are plenty of in-house disagreements. But that also goes for any system of theology, even for those who disagree that they even have a system.

 

[twin1954]

I have come across a Calvinist teacher that declares that God only loves the Elect. He teaches that God hates the Reprobate. He (God) has no desire, nor ever had any desire, to save the Reprobate. His proof, besides the "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated", is the logical argument that if God had loved the reprobate, he would have saved them. Since there are many who are not saved, then God must therefore hate them.

I would agree. Could you possibly PM me as to the name of the person who you have come across?

So my question is for Calvinists. Do you agree with this? Is this standard Calvinistic doctrine? If so, is it possible to be Calvinist and yet disagree that God hates anyone?

Yes and no. The Scriptures clearly declare that there are those whom God hates. The debate among Calvinists is in what way He hates them.

 

[Skala]

I have come across a Calvinist teacher that declares that God only loves the Elect. He teaches that God hates the Reprobate. He (God) has no desire, nor ever had any desire, to save the Reprobate. His proof, besides the "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated", is the logical argument that if God had loved the reprobate, he would have saved them. Since there are many who are not saved, then God must therefore hate them.

So my question is for Calvinists. Do you agree with this? Is this standard Calvinistic doctrine? If so, is it possible to be Calvinist and yet disagree that God hates anyone?

God demonstrates his love to all people. He sends gifts like the rain on both the elect and the reprobate. He gives non elect things like good health, families, material goods, etc.

But he has a special love for his elect, best described as the love a husband has for his wife.

Husbands are not meant to love all women equally in the world. He is meant to have a special love for her that is different from his love for his neighbors wife. Christ feels the same way about his own bride.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I have come across a Calvinist teacher that declares that God only loves the Elect. He teaches that God hates the Reprobate. He (God) has no desire, nor ever had any desire, to save the Reprobate. His proof, besides the "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated", is the logical argument that if God had loved the reprobate, he would have saved them. Since there are many who are not saved, then God must therefore hate them.

So my question is for Calvinists. Do you agree with this? Is this standard Calvinistic doctrine? If so, is it possible to be Calvinist and yet disagree that God hates anyone?

I agree with the guy. I think that love that has the power to save will save. God saves those he loves. If he doesn't save everyone it means he never loved everyone.

Watch this video me and my friends have been posting all over the place. It's only 8 minutes long or so. It's great.

Jesus Shall Not Fail - YouTube

 

[ByronArn]

God demonstrates his love to all people. He sends gifts like the rain on both the elect and the reprobate. He gives non elect things like good health, families, material goods, etc.

But he has a special love for his elect, best described as the love a husband has for his wife.

Husbands are not meant to love all women equally in the world. He is meant to have a special love for her that is different from his love for his neighbors wife. Christ feels the same way about his own bride.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

I am relieved to hear that it is not a requirement of Calvinism to believe that God hates the reprobate. If this had been the case, I would have ceased my investigation of Calvinism, and never again looked back at it. For me to say that God hates anyone seems pure blasphemy. After all, the Holy Bible says that "For God so loved the world..." (John iii.16)

 

[Robs07M6S]

I agree with the guy. I think that love that has the power to save will save. God saves those he loves. If he doesn't save everyone it means he never loved everyone.

Watch this video me and my friends have been posting all over the place. It's only 8 minutes long or so. It's great.

Jesus Shall Not Fail - YouTube

I have watched that video several times and each time it makes me cry, I wish I knew why.

 

[Robs07M6S]

After all, the Holy Bible says that "For God so loved the world..." (John iii.16)

You might be in for a shock when you find out that calvinism doesnt believe this passage to mean what you might think it means.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I have watched that video several times and each time it makes me cry, I wish I knew why.

In a good way or a bad way? It gets me a little misty in a good way because Christ will not fail.

 

[wandering misfit]

You might be in for a shock when you find out that calvinism doesnt believe this passage to mean what you might think it means.

Outloud pondering from the peanut gallery: God's general providence......... his "common" grace/love goes out to the whole world, the grass, birds....... even with the gospel proclamation, the message of what His love is goes out to each and every corner of the world. His special providence, His efficaceous grace is set on those He calls through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Robs07M6S]

In a good way or a bad way?

I really dont know, I guess its because I realize what a piece of crap I am and how awesome he is. I hear that message preached and almost know with certainty that I am probably not one of those whom Christ died for.

 

[Skala]

After all, the Holy Bible says that "For God so loved the world..." (John iii.16)

The Greek word "kosmos", which is translated into English as "world", has around 10 definitions:

1 an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2 ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
3 the world, the universe
4 the circle of the earth, the earth
5 the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6 the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and 7 therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
8 world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
9 the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
10 any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
11 the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
12 of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

According to strong's concordance, definition #12 is used in John 3:16. (surely strong's concordance knows Greek better than you and I?)

Byron, can you tell me why you automatically assumed that John intended some other definition to be used? Namely a definition that is "Every single individual in the human race"?

It seems that most Christians don't even know (or care) that "kosmos/world" has so many definitions. They just automatically assume as gospel-truth that "kosmos" in this verse means "Every single individual in the human race"

For the sake of the argument, let's say John did intend to use that definition. It still wouldn't mean that God tries to save everyone. Notice what the verse says:

"For God so loved [every single person in the human race], He sent his Son, so that whoever believes would be saved"

The end result is the same. The intention of God's love, which caused him to send Christ, was to save believers only. Not every single person. He sent his Son to save believers, which is a smaller group removed from the larger group of the world.

 

[ByronArn]

The Greek word "kosmos", which is translated into English as "world", has around 10 definitions:

1 an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2 ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
3 the world, the universe
4 the circle of the earth, the earth
5 the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6 the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and 7 therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
8 world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
9 the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
10 any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
11 the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
12 of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

According to strong's concordance, definition #12 is used in John 3:16. (surely strong's concordance knows Greek better than you and I?)

Byron, can you tell me why you automatically assumed that John intended some other definition to be used? Namely a definition that is "Every single individual in the human race"?

It seems that most Christians don't even know (or care) that "kosmos/world" has so many definitions. They just automatically assume as gospel-truth that "kosmos" in this verse means "Every single individual in the human race"

For the sake of the argument, let's say John did intend to use that definition. It still wouldn't mean that God tries to save everyone. Notice what the verse says:

"For God so loved [every single person in the human race], He sent his Son, so that whoever believes would be saved"

The end result is the same. The intention of God's love, which caused him to send Christ, was to save believers only. Not every single person. He sent his Son to save believers, which is a smaller group removed from the larger group of the world.

But I didn't use John iii.16 (in this post, at least) to try to signify that God tries to save everyone (I would use other scripture passages for that), only to prove that God loves the entire world. This concept, that God loves the reprobate, is one that espoused above. So I do not see where our disagreement is on this item?

 

[Skala]

Ah sorry, I forgot to mention that the phrase "For God so loved the world.." in the Greek literally means "God, in this manner, loved the world..."

Thus there's no exegetical reason to say that "kosmos" here refers to every single person. Especially since the the intention of God's love in sending Christ is to save believers only.

In other words, I do not think one can even use John 3:16 to build an argument that God loves every single person (I believe he does, I'm just saying John 3:16 cannot be used to support that idea)

It would be strange to say "Here's how God demonstrates his love to every single person...he sends Jesus to save only some of them (believers)... Well, how is that a demonstration of love to all of them? It isn't.

Thus I agree with Strong's concordance that world here means "world of believers". With that in mind read John 3:16 again:

"For God, in this manner, loved the world of believers, he sent His Son to save believers" (which is another way to say "whoever believes" or "the believing ones"

 

[Robs07M6S]

"For God so loved [every single person in the human race], He sent his Son, so that whoever believes would be saved"

The end result is the same. The intention of God's love, which caused him to send Christ, was to save believers only. Not every single person. He sent his Son to save believers, which is a smaller group removed from the larger group of the world.

So is it impossible to say then that Jesus did in fact die for everyone but it doesnt apply individually unless one believes?

 

[wandering misfit]

I really dont know, I guess its because I realize what a piece of crap I am and how awesome he is. I hear that message preached and almost know with certainty that I am probably not one of those whom Christ died for.

He died for every kind of sin you can have, including doubt.

 

[wandering misfit]

@ Skala

I really appreciate your exegesis in the theology discussions.

 

[Skala]

So is it impossible to say then that Jesus did in fact die for everyone but it doesnt apply individually unless one believes?

Are you referring to John 3:16?

If you look close, the verse does not mention the scope of Christ's work in coming into the world. Only its intention: "To save believers"

In fact the atonement is not mentioned at all in the verse

 

[Robs07M6S]

Are you referring to John 3:16?

If you look close, the verse does not mention the scope of Christ's work in coming into the world. Only its intention: "To save believers"

In fact the atonement is not mentioned at all in the verse

"For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life."


It clearly says that whosoever believes will not perish. Obviously the belief here is in Christ so im not sure how you figure this passage has nothing to do with the atonement. In any case as I said before is it unreasonable to say that Christ did die for all but its only applicable if you believe?

 

[Hammster]

"For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

It clearly says that whosoever believes will not perish. Obviously the belief here is in Christ so im not sure how you figure this passage has nothing to do with the atonement. In any case as I said before is it unreasonable to say that Christ did die for all but its only applicable if you believe?

What did Christ's death accomplish?