Does God Hate the Reprobate?

98cwitr

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Did God determine that it would happen or did he simply just know that this person would make the wrong choice?

He knew before He even created them...and decided to create them anyway. Does that answer your question? What's the difference between determining and allowing with the application of foreknowledge?
 
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Hupomone10

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Read it, not impressed with his "logic"

still say God is not the author of sin :)

Is He the author of confusion too in your opinion?
This is an excellent point, IMHO.

If we are to understand, as I've been told on here, that the phrase "all things" in Eph 1:11 "works all things after the counsel of His will" includes sin and evil, then "all things" must include "confusion" as well. But if one believes all of Scripture, that cannot be what Paul meant.

1 Cor. 14:33 God is not the author of confusion,


 
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Hupomone10

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God is the author of evil and horror for a good reason.
You don't mind if I save this quote, do you?

On another note, those who believe this, and the phrases that all decisions are "set in iron", every decision of every person", and that God directed that evil and sin be in his universe, will want to be ready to explain to homosexuals, while telling them that they weren't born that way that it was a choice, that at the same time it was a choice that was set in stone.

Actress' claim to be gay by choice riles activists - Yahoo! News

"The actress best known for portraying fiery lawyer Miranda Hobbes on "Sex and the City" is up to her perfectly arched eyebrows in controversy since The New York Times Magazine published a profile in which she was quoted as saying that for her, being gay was a conscious choice. Nixon is engaged to a woman with whom she has been in a relationship for eight years. Before that, she spent 15 years and had two children with a man.
"I understand that for many people it's not, but for me it's a choice, and you don't get to define my gayness for me," Nixon said while recounting some of the flak gay rights activists previously had given her for treading in similar territory. "A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it's a choice, then we could opt out."

Follow it to the end of the road and see where it leads...
 
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Osage Bluestem

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You don't mind if I save this quote, do you?

On another note, those who believe this, and the phrases that all decisions are "set in iron", every decision of every person", and that God directed that evil and sin be in his universe, will want to be ready to explain to homosexuals, while telling them that they weren't born that way that it was a choice, that at the same time it was a choice that was set in stone.

Actress' claim to be gay by choice riles activists - Yahoo! News

"The actress best known for portraying fiery lawyer Miranda Hobbes on "Sex and the City" is up to her perfectly arched eyebrows in controversy since The New York Times Magazine published a profile in which she was quoted as saying that for her, being gay was a conscious choice. Nixon is engaged to a woman with whom she has been in a relationship for eight years. Before that, she spent 15 years and had two children with a man.
"I understand that for many people it's not, but for me it's a choice, and you don't get to define my gayness for me," Nixon said while recounting some of the flak gay rights activists previously had given her for treading in similar territory. "A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it's a choice, then we could opt out."

Follow it to the end of the road and see where it leads...

Romans 9:21-22 ESV
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Author of a story, like Twain.... not accountable for the actions of Tom Sawyer.

God doesn't sin because he does everything for a good reason. People sin because they do things for an evil reason.
 
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Hupomone10

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Did God know, from eternity past, before He created, that this crime would eventually happen

Therefore, it couldn't have not happened, or else God's prior knowledge of it would be wrong.

the minute God created the universe, that horrible crime was determined to happen. There's no way around it.

Your only escape is to embrace open theism.
This is begging the question and circular reasoning; and if you don't see that, it's not worth discussing. It's no different that stating that all decisions are set in iron and offering no evidence to support it, except vague scriptures taken out of context.

If you want to talk about following things to their logical or philosophical conclusion, why don't you actually do it, Hupo?
I do. I have repeatedly now shown examples of how I've followed your and Osage's philosophy to the end of this road and determined it to be fatalism and determinism and not Scriptural.


 
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Skala

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Did God determine that it would happen or did he simply just know that this person would make the wrong choice?

Didn't he determine it would happen by 1) Creating in the first place and 2) not preventing it from happening?

If he didn't want it to happen there are multitudes of ways he could have done things differently right?He could have killed the criminal before he committed the crime. He could have not allowed the crime to happen by intervening. He could have changed the lives of the people involved so they wouldn't have ended up together in this life at all.

God did not prevent it from happening, and the only conclusion is that it served his plans for it to happen. Thus we can say he ordained it to happen. It didn't just happen on accident, did it?

I see where your going with this but in what way does this negate the persons responsibility to make the right choices instead of the wrong ones?

It doesn't negate their responsibility.

When men sin, it is for wicked and evil intentions, thus God punishes justly

When God ordains a sinful event/action, he has righteous reasons and intentions. He has a plan and a purpose for it.

Here's some examples:

Acts 4:27-28 says that Christ's murder was predestined by God.

1) The men who murdered Christ, in carrying out God's plan, had evil intentions, thus are held accountable
2) God, in ordaining it to happen, had righteous intentions: the salvation of His people.

In Genesis we learned that Joseph's brothers merely did what God meant for them to do.

1) The brothers had evil intentions, thus are held accountable
2) God in ordaining their actions had righteous intentions: to save many lives
 
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Skala

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This is begging the question and circular reasoning; and if you don't see that, it's not worth discussing. It's no different that stating that all decisions are set in iron and offering no evidence to support it, except vague scriptures taken out of context.


I do. I have repeatedly now shown examples of how I've followed your and Osage's philosophy to the end of this road and determined it to be fatalism and determinism and not Scriptural.



I certainly don't believe in fatalism, but I do believe in determinism (there's a difference)

Hupo, why are you against determinism?

Someone has to determine something. Whether the creature or the Creator, someone is determining things. Why is it "bad" for the Creator to determine something but it's ok for the creature to? Is it more comforting to you when fallible, finite, sinful and wicked creatures determine things than it is for the infinitely wise and just God to do so? Isn't that sort of odd?

Can God make any decisions in your theology? Can God actually...you know...determine something? Can God actually sit on his throne and govern?

Apparently not, because that's bad.

Queue Spurgeon quote:

Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne. They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love. They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his sceptre in his hand and his crown upon his head.
 
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ByronArn

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Going back to the original topic, I came across an interesting idea reading a sermon by an independent fundamentalist Baptist.I don't think I agree with it (I am still mulling it over) but i wanted to throw it out here for discussion.

If each person of the Trinity is a separate person, isn't it possible that each person has different likes, dislikes, emphasis, etc? God the Father emphasises justice. It is why he gave the law. If man is sin, is it not possible that the father hates all the unsaved? Is it not the Father who said, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated"? After a sinner is converted by the power of the Holy spirit, then God loves him/her. Jesus Christ emphasises mercy and love. He loves all mankind, reprobate and Elect. That is why He is the one who became incarnate to die for our sins. As for the Holy Spirit, I can't figure out who he hates, or loves, under this paradigm.

Anyways, I am still mulling this over but I don't know if I agree with it. What are the thoughts of the Calvinists/Reformed Baptists here?
 
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