Does God choose every person that will follow Him?

[98cwitr]

Yes, however, the choice included life or death and I used it only to show choice. There are others I can use, many of them, but my point was simply to show both predestination and free will exist in Scripture. To choose one over the other, in some cases pitting one against the other, is unprofitable.

As the chapter carries on, it would seem to suggest that the death mentioned is earthly/worldly/physical (see v.18), not unlike the will of man. The sinner and the saved are both free to choose within their own natures. In other words, we will only do what it is in our nature to do. That is why God makes the promise He does in both Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31...and that is to change a man's very nature to follow Him.

 

[DingDing]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

The notion of individual election is the problem. I submit that God does not work that way - though the notion makes the calvinist feel good about himself. God elects on a corporate basis. So the focus is not on the individual like the calvinist supposes, but upon Christ and His bride. He is the Elect One and she (the corporate body of Christ) shares in His election.

 

[Ken Rank]

As the chapter carries on, it would seem to suggest that the death mentioned is earthly/worldly/physical (see v.18), not unlike the will of man. The sinner and the saved are both free to choose within their own natures. In other words, we will only do what it is in our nature to do. That is why God makes the promise He does in both Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31...and that is to change a man's very nature to follow Him.

Also Deut. 30:1-6 and Ezk. 11:19.

 

[MDC]

To answer the original question, yes.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Romans 9:15-23 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Great post!

 

[MDC]

My answer would be similar... God knows who will choose Him because He exists outside of time and knows the end from the beginning. He actually DRAWS a man unto Himself (John 6:44) but we still have to choose (Deuteronomy 30:19). I disagree (respectfully) with @Daniel9v9 as I think we can comprehend this one for the reason I just shared. All of the things that mark time, the rotation of the earth (a day) the orbit of the moon (a month) and orbit of the earth around the sun (a year) and all the division we can make between them (hours, minutes, seconds) are all things God created... but He existed BEFORE that. He is outside of time and therefore knows who will and will not choose Him. We are, from THAT perspective, predestined but not in the sense of some being create to live and some to be tortured for eternity for nothing within their power... but simply because He foreknows as He exists beyond time.

Your understanding predestination is very flawed and not according to scripture. And is why Arminianism is flat out wrong

 

[MDC]

God gives us all sufficient grace for salvation. It is not his fault if we reject his grace.

Man is spiritually dead in sin! Apart from regeneration, man will always reject God and the gospel of Christ

 

[Ken Rank]

Your understanding predestination is very flawed and not according to scripture. And is why Arminianism is flat out wrong

That's fine... I am neither a Calvinist nor Armenianist. I see both concepts in Scripture, plainly and repeatedly (if you need all the verses pointed out and are willing to consider them, I will be honored to take the time and share them) and instead of choosing one and ignoring the other... I realize with both existing I can ignore neither and need to find a way to reconcile the fact that both exist. You seem to have reached a different conclusion... that is fine. Have a great night.

 

[Ken Rank]

Man is spiritually dead in sin! Apart from regeneration, man will always reject God and the gospel of Christ

So David, the Apple of God's eye, rejected God. Abraham, a friend to God and a man called righteous... rejected God. Noach was saved while the rest of the world was killed off... and he rejected God? Have you even read Hebrews 11? Any of the OT? Joseph rejected God? Jacob?

 

[MDC]

That's fine... I am neither a Calvinist nor Armenianist. I see both concepts in Scripture, plainly and repeatedly (if you need all the verses pointed out and are willing to consider them, I will be honored to take the time and share them) and instead of choosing one and ignoring the other... I realize with both existing I can ignore neither and need to find a way to reconcile the fact that both exist. You seem to have reached a different conclusion... that is fine. Have a great night.

They are opposites, so both aren't taught in scripture. Mans volition is in subjection to his nature. And you hold strongly to Arminianism whether you want to believe it or not

 

[Ken Rank]

They are opposites, so both aren't taught in scripture. Mans volition is in subjection to his nature. And you hold strongly to Arminianism whether you want to believe it or not

You know, you could say, "Ken, if you think both exist in Scripture, share some of those verses so I can consider them." Instead, you just categorically assume that this can't be because it stands against you current paradigm and, no disrespect intended, but you might as well just stick your head in the sand. There is choice all over Scripture... God has NOT created a race of mind-numbed robots who were programmed in advance to pick the path He placed into our computers (DNA/minds/hearts). Yet, at the same time... there are words like predestined, foreordained, elected and others that indicate He might have done just that. So... we can say, "there can't be both" and just pick whichever one best fits our mindset, or... we can try to reconcile them. This seeming contradiction isn't uncommon... we know salvation is by grace and yet I can show you verses that link salvation to works. I am not saying we can do anything to save ourselves, I am simply saying we have verses that can be taken that way and... like predestination/free will... I can ignore one and pit it against the other (a lower level student thing to do) or... pray and patiently wait on God to reveal the information I am lacking that will allow me to reconcile the two.

Anyway... I am heading to bed now. Blessings.

 

[MDC]

The notion of individual election is the problem. I submit that God does not work that way - though the notion makes the calvinist feel good about himself. God elects on a corporate basis. So the focus is not on the individual like the calvinist supposes, but upon Christ and His bride. He is the Elect One and she (the corporate body of Christ) shares in His election.

To separate individual election from corporate election is complete nonsense. I'm sure arminians like yourself feel good about this false belief as well correct? The grace of God that saves is the ELECTION of God in Christ

 

[Daniel9v9]

How do you exegete Romans 9:21-23?

Sure, but these verses cannot be isolated but have to be weighed up with everything else the Bible is saying about God's omnipotence, goodness, love, patience, mercy and grace; that He wills no man to perish.
See: 2 Peter 3:9 Psalms 107:1 Genesis 1:31 Matthew 23:37 Daniel 9:9

The full context of the verses you reference has to do with God's righteousness - His punishment of evil, which in itself is good, furthermore because God is good. It's not to be understood as God creating evil, and by that being the ultimate source of evil, in order to banish the evil he created into eternal damnation. God does not work evil, only good. This is not to be confused with the means of God's punishments, which are not evil, but good, as they serve a good and holy purpose.

If we are of the opinion that God made some for eternal damnation, we're going against, at least to my knowledge, the vast majority of Christian teaching, though it may be expressed differently in the different branches of our faith. However, some may be quick to point to Calvin, but even the Reformed today don't teach this (though often it's criticized for amounting to the same).

All of this really boils down to the source of evil, which is unanswerable, only that God is most certainly not the source of evil, neither does He temp or impute evil on anyone, but He can withhold grace, and He is righteous and does justly punish evil.

 

[Ken Rank]

To separate individual election from corporate election is complete nonsense. I'm sure arminians like yourself feel good about this false belief as well correct? The grace of God that saves is the ELECTION of God in Christ

You know what I hate... how some Christians talk to other Christians. Is this person in rebellion against God because he has reached a different conclusion than you have on this topic? If this topic SO IMPORTANT that our salvation hangs on it and that is why you can call their belief nonsense? If God said to love our enemy, why treat a brother with such disrespect? Don't you realize that God >>HATES<< when a brother causes strife among other brothers? (Proverbs 6:16-19) Every word we speak and deed we perform is supposed to reflect the one we serve... and the one we serve is known by His fruits... which SHOULD be in us. Fruits like love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering, etc.

 

[MDC]

You know what I hate... how some Christians talk to other Christians. Is this person in rebellion against God because he has reached a different conclusion than you have on this topic? If this topic SO IMPORTANT that our salvation hangs on it and that is why you can call their belief nonsense? If God said to love our enemy, why treat a brother with such disrespect? Don't you realize that God >>HATES<< when a brother causes strife among other brothers? (Proverbs 6:16-19) Every word we speak and deed we perform is supposed to reflect the one we serve... and the one we serve is known by His fruits... which SHOULD be in us. Fruits like love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering, etc.

Yes this topic has everything to do with how we understand God and His gospel that saves in Christ.. Arminianism is works salvation. Roman Catholicisms core belief is arminian. Arminianism is a false gospel. So who is my brother and sister Ken? Am I not showing love by telling you the truth?

 

[Daniel9v9]

The message from Yeshua was repent (Matthew 4:17) and from Peter (Acts 2:38) which means we have to turn away from sin and turn to God and His ways... for the remission of sins. If you desire to believe that we play no part in this, go ahead. But, while God alone does the saving, God expects action from us. And seeing we are not saved yet (we still decay and die, get disease, are exposed to sin and other unrighteousness, war, famine, etc.) then we do apparently have some role to play.

Yes, but what is repentance? It's not to be considered work in relation to salvation, for if it was, then it becomes something we do in order to earn or pay for salvation, but salvation is not earned or paid for, but freely given. Repentance comes from the conviction of God's Word - the Law, the letter that kills - and His work in us. It's the Holy Spirit that works in us, compelling us to turn to God. Repentance, faith and salvation is not to be attributed to ourselves, lest we should boast.

If we start thinking of salvation as a co-operative effort between God and us, we're going hard against what Scriptures say about God's grace and the Gospel (and this is Semipelagianism), for the Word explicitly say God's grace is free, and this is what the reformation was all about. Even the word "grace" comes from "gratis/gratus", which can mean "thankful, pleasing, free".
To my knowledge, the majority of Protestants today still teach imputed grace. Here we differ with our Catholic friends.
For reference, see: Imputed righteousness - Wikipedia

A lot can be said about this, but consider this - Our Lord Jesus Christ said we have to be born again. Who can choose to be born? How? By what means? For man to be born again is impossible, but it is possible for God. John 3:1-21

We have a Christian duty to bear good fruit according to God's Word, but this in no way or shape affect or compromise our salvation. Because then it becomes a question of "Did I truly repent of all my sins? Did I accept Jesus honestly enough? Did I do enough to earn my salvation?"

In a word, salvation is freely given and good works follows, as the fruit of the Spirit, and it has been prepared for us by God.

Ephesians 2:10 sums all of this very efficiently: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Notice here:
1. We are God's handiwork - Who made us? God created us.

2. Created in Christ - How are we in Christ? God created us in Christ - we didn't choose to be 'created', it's already decreed. God spoke and it is. God's Word does not return void.

3. Good works - Why are we created in Christ? In order that we may bear good fruits, by God, for God, through God.

4. Good works prepared - Where does good works come from? From God alone, the source and author of all good things. The good works we perform is at the mercy of God in that He freely gave it to us that we should walk in them through Christ.

The bottom line is that apart from Jesus, we can do nothing - certainly not work our own salvation through our own means, even in a co-operative effort. God alone saves.
John 15:5 Ephesians 2:1 Acts 4:12

 

[MDC]

You know what I hate... how some Christians talk to other Christians. Is this person in rebellion against God because he has reached a different conclusion than you have on this topic? If this topic SO IMPORTANT that our salvation hangs on it and that is why you can call their belief nonsense? If God said to love our enemy, why treat a brother with such disrespect? Don't you realize that God >>HATES<< when a brother causes strife among other brothers? (Proverbs 6:16-19) Every word we speak and deed we perform is supposed to reflect the one we serve... and the one we serve is known by His fruits... which SHOULD be in us. Fruits like love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering, etc.

Martin Luther says it so beautifully.. If any man ascribes anything to salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly..

 

[DingDing]

To separate individual election from corporate election is complete nonsense. I'm sure arminians like yourself feel good about this false belief as well correct? The grace of God that saves is the ELECTION of God in Christ

Hello,

Well, individual election is separate and distinct and different from corporate election. But I do agree with the underlined statement above, though probably not how you meant it. Individual election focuses on the individual. Corporate election focuses on Christ - He is the Elect One: and His bride, the church, shares in His election by right of marriage. And anyone can join this elect body. This is the mystery which Paul gets into in the Book of Ephesians. For some reason many seem to read just portions of the 1st chapter (and read into it individual election) but they fail to read on to get the full impact of the book. There is a mysterious relationship between Christ and His bride - and the "bride" is a body that any and all can join.

 

[Kyle16]

od in His fore-knowledge knows what decision we will make. That is NOT Him choosing.

I guess my using the word "fore-knowledge" someone could not argue that He predestined us. Just found it interesting. It is written all over the bible that he does predestined. Thank you for you response.

 

[Kyle16]

I think the answer depends on what you mean by the question.

Does God choose to create these people over here, and save them, and create those people over there, with the intent of simply burning them alive forever?

No, I do not believe that.

Does God choose and desire to save persons?

Yes, I believe He does.

Does God make everything necessary for the salvation and healing of every person available? (Meaning is the atonement effective and available for all persons, does God call/draw all men to some degree, does God make faith available to all?)

I'm sure you'll get disagreement here, but I would say that yes, He does. And furthermore, I would say that not only that, but that He desires every person's salvation.

Do we have the ability/free will to reject God?

I believe we do, and not only before we come to know Him, but I don't think that free will is removed from us during this lifetime, so that we could, if we so chose, decide to follow Him, but later change our minds and reject Him (though deciding to do so is incomprehensible to me). Again, I know that some are taught otherwise.

Does God see/know the end of each person, before any of their days begin (in our time-locked perspective)?

I believe He does.

I have talked to a lot of people about this and this is pretty normal response. I think it is a moral flesh response. We want to believe God is this perfect God in Our mind so we create the things in our own way that make him seem perfect even though his perfection his so much better than the flaw perfection we created about him. I was guilty of this until I really dove deep.
P.S. I am not saying your not diving deep or anything like that.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. Have a wonderful day.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hello again, Kyle, and welcome to CF, btw. I just noticed that you are new here, and I wanted to say that we are glad that you joined us.

I have talked to a lot of people about this and this is pretty normal response. I think it is a moral flesh response. We want to believe God is this perfect God in Our mind so we create the things in our own way that make him seem perfect even though his perfection his so much better than the flaw perfection we created about him. I was guilty of this until I really dove deep.
P.S. I am not saying your not diving deep or anything like that.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. Have a wonderful day.

I can understand why you would say so. It does seem to be a "nice" response, especially for those of us who were taught something based on "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" ... which apparently at least got lots of people's attention.

And no offense taken. But the fact is, I wouldn't dare to put forth my own opinions if that's all they were, without saying very clearly that was my only basis. But that's just how I am. And I wouldn't expect you to know that.

But there is more to it than that. I have done a great deal of study, and inquiry, into a number of theologies and how they came about, and devoted much prayer to it, and of course studied the Scriptures as well, including the cultural contexts as far as they were available. So it's not just my flesh speaking.

After all that searching, I decided to become Eastern Orthodox, which really is simply the Church that Christ founded, remaining in many lands, that wasn't a part of the whole Catholicism situation which led to the Protestant Reformation and all of that. So there never have been all of these issues and new, competing theologies, and such. The focus is simply on maintaining and passing down that which was received, with no changes.

And you would find that what I posted has been the understanding of the Orthodox for 2000 years. When we pray, we often address God as a "good and loving God ... Who loves mankind". And of course He knows all things.

The reason I think it appeals to the flesh is that there is something in the heart of man that recognizes God Who created it.

There are also many who it appeals to to think of a God that can't wait to exact vengeance. What that speaks to in the heart of man is something else. But I don't say this in any kind of condemnation. We all have our injuries and sicknesses of the soul, brought about by sin, and I pray God will heal these in each person, as He wills to do.

Again, welcome. And God be with you.