Does God choose every person that will follow Him?

[~Anastasia~]

God has every RIGHT to do whatever He wants. I've never seen anyone deny that.

The question to me seems to be ... is God such a one that He would arbitrarily decide to create human persons for no other purpose than to burn them alive and torment them for an eternity, especially with no possible chance for them to accept salvation, and all for what purpose? To prove that He can?

If I'm not mischaracterizing the belief (and I sincerely don't mean to) ... but if that is REALLY how some people see God, then ...

I have to say I think it's terrible and misguided and makes a monster of God. It is a terrible misreading of isolated Scriptures that can make one think that a God who describes Himself AS BEING Agape Love, who was willing for the Incarnation and Crucifixion to happen for the sake of saving/healing persons, because He loves them, how can such a "God" as the One revealed to us in Christ Jesus, who had compassion on the woman caught in adultery, make sense? He is not confused, or possessed of multiple personalities.

I don't see how people can reconcile it in their minds. It is completely out of character for the God I know.

 

[Kyle16]

Sorry, I don't think you entirely get what I'm saying. Perhaps that's my error, in over-emphasizing a point or simply not being clear enough. But to put it as clearly as I can, I'm talking about justification by faith through grace alone. That man, according to his own reason, power or strength cannot, by any works or means, pay for or merit salvation, because salvation is entirely a free gift from God. If we fail to understand this, we fail to understand the Gospel, and it's no longer a Gospel but law.

We can talk about God's grace in many ways, but in context of salvation, I denote only our Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel, for all Scriptures points to Jesus; he is the alpha and omega, and no other name saves.

What I've been talking about specifically in relation to salvation and baptism is this:
God's Word say that the blood of Christ washes away sins. It also say that baptism washes away sins. These are not contrary, or different means for salvation, for they point to the same thing - God's mercy through His son, Jesus Christ. Baptism is therefore not a way around Jesus, for it's a baptism into Jesus, by the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And this is only apprehended through faith. All of which is a free gift from God and not something we work.

Baptism shouldn't be confused with good works, namely, loving God, loving our neighbour and obedience to Christ, for the fruit of the Spirit does not precede faith, but follows and comes out of faith.

It's good to talk about obedience to God through Christ, but part of this obedience is taking baptism at its promise the way that it's revealed to us by God's Word. Consider who instituted baptism. It's not a religious rite made by men, but it was instituted and commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ with the promise of life. It's the power of God.
If he gave us baptism with the promise of forgiveness of sins, the Holy Spirit, life and adoption, why then, should we be skeptical or act against that? Shouldn't we rather rejoice in his word and promise? Again, baptism is not something outside Christ, or a way around Christ, but it's a baptism into Christ, through repentance and faith. Obedience and good work naturally follows from being in Christ. Or as Paul puts it: "we uphold the law!"

Ephesians 4:5 say that we have one Lord, one faith, one baptism - not three different means for salvation, but one: Christ Jesus crucified. Romans 6 explains that through baptism, we were baptized into Christ's death and made alive to God.

I hope this clarifies some, and I would encourage you to read everything the Bible has to say about baptism and being born again. It's not without reason it's written:

Acts 2:38: "And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Mark 16:16: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Galatians 3:27: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

John 3:5: "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

I 100% agree with what you stated in the beginning. Well said. I am not sure if this is one of the points you are trying to get across... " You have to be baptized" but I would disagree. But I know in the NT you do not have to be baptized.

I find baptism very interesting. I was baptized. I find it interesting because all the Jews would and still are being baptized and baptism is still carried into the NT. However It is important to make clear that the Jews were NOT baptized in the Holy spirit. They strictly were baptizing in preparation for the coming Messiah. Don't quote me on this but I am pretty sure they also believe that water saves them.

 

[Kyle16]

Man, by his Adamic nature is already condemned. Does God not have the right to with His creation as He chooses? That is the question. Your response seems to indicate that you believe God does not have the right to make vessels for dishonor (i.e. eternal damnation). I see no other way to understand this other than a denial of God's autonomous free will to do with His creation as He so wills. This does not make God the author of evil (nor do I claim that God is the author of evil), but He does have a decretive will. And that will is that some He will save and some will remain condemned because of their sins against Him. That is also not to say that we know who is to be saved or who remains condemned. God has not revealed that to us.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The amazing part about Romans 9 is not that God hated Esau, but rather that He loved Jacob. God is not obliged to save a single person, yet He chooses to. That is what is so wondrous about God's grace. He did have to love any of us, yet He does!

I read Daniele9v9 post and I do not see where he talked about or referred to "double predestination".... I only can see he is talking about predestination and NOT "double predestination". Why are pointing out "Double predestination"? Can you point it out.... I honestly just do not see it. Thank you!

 

[JoeP222w]

I read Daniele9v9 post and I do not see where he talked about or referred to "double predestination".... I only can see he is talking about predestination and NOT "double predestination". Why are pointing out "Double predestination"? Can you point it out.... I honestly just do not see it. Thank you!

I did not point out double predestination.

 

[JoeP222w]

especially with no possible chance for them to accept salvation

Why is God obliged to give man any chance at all, when man is a sinner in rebellion to Him?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Why is God obliged to give man any chance at all, when man is a sinner in rebellion to Him?

God is not "obliged". I have also said God can do whatever He wants.

The question is, what kind of God is He? Is He one that will create human persons, solely for the purpose of burning them in torment for eternity, just because He can, or just to prove He can?

Of course He CAN do that, and no one has a right to speak against it. But is that His heart?

 

[JoeP222w]

God is not "obliged". I have also said God can do whatever He wants.

The question is, what kind of God is He? Is He one that will create human persons, solely for the purpose of burning them in torment for eternity, just because He can, or just to prove He can?

Of course He CAN do that, and no one has a right to speak against it. But is that His heart?

God is perfect, holy and just, and for Him to display these attributes means that unregenerate rebel sinners will be cast into Hell for eternity, and this glorifies God.

Yet God is also grace, mercy and love, and save those who are His elect, His choosing. God does not reveal to us who the elect are.

One thing God is not, is unjust. He does not capriciously toss someone into Hell who is not completely and utterly deserving of it. Hell is purposeful. And those are in Hell will never repent of their sins, and they will never love God. They will go on hating Him for eternity of eternities.

 

[Meowzltov]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

Kyle: choosing implies there are criteria for a choice. "All are called, few are chosen." God loves the whole world. Jesus died for everyone. But only those who respond to God's grace are "chosen."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Let me first comment, because tone doesn't come through, that I'm interested in your answers and understanding you, but I'm not replying in the spirit of argument. I think we disagree on much, but instead of drawing lines and taking the opposite side on certain things, I'm really interested here is making sure I understand what you mean. So if you reply, I hope you will keep that in mind, or else I may lose the chance to understand you. Please forgive me if I've been clumsy in any of this and seem antagonistic - it is not my intent.

God is perfect, holy and just, and for Him to display these attributes means that unregenerate rebel sinners will be cast into Hell for eternity, and this glorifies God.

Ok, but we will simply have to disagree on this point. I think you and I have very different views of God. Perhaps too you envision something different than the thought that comes to my mind, but frankly - I find the idea of tossing what most with that view probably regard as the greater mass of humanity into fiery eternal torment as something that "glorifies God" (is God feeling self-satisfied by this event, do you suppose?) ... well I find the idea horrifying and borderline blasphemous.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. Maybe we aren't communicating well, but as I said, I suspect we have vastly different views concerning God.

Yet God is also grace, mercy and love, and save those who are His elect, His choosing. God does not reveal to us who the elect are.

But once again, is God utterly capricious in this choosing? Did the person have no choice, no chance from the moment of his conception? Was he simply a victim of poor luck of the draw?

God does not reveal ... I might agree or might question further, depending what you mean. But this seems a side issue.

One thing God is not, is unjust. He does not capriciously toss someone into Hell who is not completely and utterly deserving of it. Hell is purposeful. And those are in Hell will never repent of their sins, and they will never love God. They will go on hating Him for eternity of eternities.

There are several statements here.

I agree that the experience of hell and hating God go hand in hand.

You say here that God is not capricious after all. Very good. So then ... upon what basis does He elect, or not elect? Is this chosen for man, as it implies?

And you say no one goes to hell but those who deserve it ... but would you not also agree that, according to your Theology, EVERYONE deserves hell? So in reality, that statement might not make sense?

Whether or not God is just is an interesting question, actually. First acknowledging that human standards and ways of thinking are lower than God's of course. But seriously, according to the Theology I think you are describing, is it actually just to sacrifice one Person (Christ) for the sake of another? Especially if you believe punishment is part of redemption (I'm not sure if you do?). Is it really "just" to forgive anyone? Sometimes I think we would do better to ask God not for justice, but to thank Him for withholding it. But the opposite concept (injustice) does not mean exactly the same thing as withholding justice, so we do not say that God is unjust. But I'm not sure we should be touting that He is perfectly "just" ... nor should we wish Him to be.

 

[JoeP222w]

I find the idea of tossing what most with that view probably regard as the greater mass of humanity into fiery eternal torment as something that "glorifies God" (is God feeling self-satisfied by this event, do you suppose?) ... well I find the idea horrifying and borderline blasphemous.

1. We don't know who the elect are, nor the number.
2. I can find no understanding of your statement other than you reject the holiness, righteousness, perfection and justice of God. No one is tossed into Hell because they do not deserve it. Every single human being who has ever lived deserves the righteous and holy wrath of God because all have sinned against Him and fall short of His glory. God is right to condemn us all. The amazing thing is that God saves anyone at all. No one deserves salvation, not one single person who has ever lived.

But once again, is God utterly capricious in this choosing?

No. He chooses according to the counsel of His own will. Not because of something man does. He is not arbitrary. He is sovereign and has the right to do with His creation as He sees fit and no creation can tell Him He is wrong in doing so.

Did the person have no choice, no chance from the moment of his conception?

This is a fallacious argument. Why do you believe that a person even deserves a "chance" or "choice"? We did not self-create. God is not obliged to us, that is what is implied in saying that everyone deserves a "chance" or "choice". And by our fundamental nature, no one "chooses" God, in and of themselves. [Romans 3:10-12]

Was he simply a victim of poor luck of the draw?

No. The is no such thing as random chance. God is sovereign over all things. He purposes all things.

So then ... upon what basis does He elect, or not elect?

Upon the counsel of His own will, not something that the creature does, says or thinks. God does reveal to us the extent of His own will.

Is this chosen for man, as it implies?

God is the one who chooses whom He saves.

And you say no one goes to hell but those who deserve it ... but would you not also agree that, according to your Theology, EVERYONE deserves hell?

Yes, everyone deserves Hell as mentioned above.

But I'm not sure we should be touting that He is perfectly "just" ... nor should we wish Him to be.

This human thought that disagrees with the Bible.

God is perfectly just. He is also perfectly merciful. God is not just at the cost of abandoning His mercy. God is not merciful at the cost of abandoning His justice.