Does God choose every person that will follow Him?

[danstribe]

There is a difference between knowing and choosing. We make our own choices. God in His fore-knowledge knows what decision we will make. That is NOT Him choosing.

The problem with both Calvinism and Arminianism in this question is they both limit God to being subject to our flow of time, and to our understanding of logic.

I think it's more like God in His fore-knowledge knows every possible decision we could make and the result of each one. He most probably leads us in directions that will cause us to make certain choices that He wants us to make in order to fulfill the destiny He has chosen for us. We still make the choices but under God's influence we choose the path to salvation.

 

[J Stone]

We have free will to choose sin or God (love). We kill our off spring, family, friends even Jesus with our sin so we are the savages we are disgusting we are selfish we are evil. God is selfless who spent his time with us sheltering, teaching, healing, giving, helping, feeding and caring showing us how to be Selfless (love). So the ? Should be who are we harming/killing with our sins. Because God is all love

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes this topic has everything to do with how we understand God and His gospel that saves in Christ.. Arminianism is works salvation. Roman Catholicisms core belief is arminian. Arminianism is a false gospel. So who is my brother and sister Ken? Am I not showing love by telling you the truth?

How do you define works. If you say a man has to believe then believe is a work. I don't know ANYONE who thinks that we are saved by anything but grace. The Jews are said to believe that works save but I know MANY Orthodox Jews and not one believes that. If we are raised in a culture that thinks this way and we are raised in that culture, we too will think that way. Anyway... I am not interested in debating this at all. Both free will and predestination verses exist in Scripture. Just Google, "Bible verses dealing with free will" and then "Bible verses showing predestination." You will see that not all the verses that come back are good choices, but that enough do indeed reveal that both concepts exist and you then have a choice. Remain dogmatic and accept one and demean the other... or take a open minded scholarly prayerful approach and allow God to reveal what HE WANTS TO REVEAL rather than clinging to some dogmatic doctrine you hold dear. Sometimes we are wrong and we shouldn't ever fear that... we should rejoice because it means we are about to learn something new. Shalom.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, but what is repentance? It's not to be considered work in relation to salvation, for if it was, then it becomes something we do in order to earn or pay for salvation, but salvation is not earned or paid for, but freely given. Repentance comes from the conviction of God's Word - the Law, the letter that kills - and His work in us. It's the Holy Spirit that works in us, compelling us to turn to God. Repentance, faith and salvation is not to be attributed to ourselves, lest we should boast.

If we start thinking of salvation as a co-operative effort between God and us, we're going hard against what Scriptures say about God's grace and the Gospel (and this is Semipelagianism), for the Word explicitly say God's grace is free, and this is what the reformation was all about. Even the word "grace" comes from "gratis/gratus", which can mean "thankful, pleasing, free".
To my knowledge, the majority of Protestants today still teach imputed grace. Here we differ with our Catholic friends.
For reference, see: Imputed righteousness - Wikipedia

A lot can be said about this, but consider this - Our Lord Jesus Christ said we have to be born again. Who can choose to be born? How? By what means? For man to be born again is impossible, but it is possible for God. John 3:1-21

We have a Christian duty to bear good fruit according to God's Word, but this in no way or shape affect or compromise our salvation. Because then it becomes a question of "Did I truly repent of all my sins? Did I accept Jesus honestly enough? Did I do enough to earn my salvation?"

In a word, salvation is freely given and good works follows, as the fruit of the Spirit, and it has been prepared for us by God.

Ephesians 2:10 sums all of this very efficiently: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Notice here:
1. We are God's handiwork - Who made us? God created us.

2. Created in Christ - How are we in Christ? God created us in Christ - we didn't choose to be 'created', it's already decreed. God spoke and it is. God's Word does not return void.

3. Good works - Why are we created in Christ? In order that we may bear good fruits, by God, for God, through God.

4. Good works prepared - Where does good works come from? From God alone, the source and author of all good things. The good works we perform is at the mercy of God in that He freely gave it to us that we should walk in them through Christ.

The bottom line is that apart from Jesus, we can do nothing - certainly not work our own salvation through our own means, even in a co-operative effort. God alone saves.
John 15:5 Ephesians 2:1 Acts 4:12

I don't think you understand grace/mercy. if I asked you what the first act of grace was in the bible, I wonder where you would start? Matthew? I start in the garden... when a now decaying Adam who still had access to the tree of life was kicked out and away from that tree. Why is that grace? Could you imagine a decaying Adam that was now 6000 years old but still alive? I would go to Joseph... the whole story is grace. People are so conditioned to the Baptist formula of "grace alone" that even when we are told to do something by God as part of our walk it gets demeaned or belittled by that crowd. If you love Yeshua, keep his commandments. Repent, be baptized, for the remission of sins. To be saved? No... that is God's work alone... but those who turn their heart to God, will be prompted to repent, be baptized, walk in obedience, study to show themselves approved, and so forth. They are part of our walk... our walk does NOT begin and end at the cross... we are not supposed to pitch a tent and live at the cross. We are supposed to come to it in faith and then pick it up and begin to walk as God desires. That is Scripture... taking from that model changes Scripture.

 

[Noxot]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

okay then... God has one son and he is the one elected. problem solved.

God does not create people for hell because he is not evil. if a doctrine speaks ill of God then you ought not to worship an idol because God hates idolaters. why does God hate such? because it harms his son.

 

[Sammy-San]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

Calvinism is heresy.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I don't think you understand grace/mercy. if I asked you what the first act of grace was in the bible, I wonder where you would start? Matthew? I start in the garden... when a now decaying Adam who still had access to the tree of life was kicked out and away from that tree. Why is that grace? Could you imagine a decaying Adam that was now 6000 years old but still alive? I would go to Joseph... the whole story is grace. People are so conditioned to the Baptist formula of "grace alone" that even when we are told to do something by God as part of our walk it gets demeaned or belittled by that crowd. If you love Yeshua, keep his commandments. Repent, be baptized, for the remission of sins. To be saved? No... that is God's work alone... but those who turn their heart to God, will be prompted to repent, be baptized, walk in obedience, study to show themselves approved, and so forth. They are part of our walk... our walk does NOT begin and end at the cross... we are not supposed to pitch a tent and live at the cross. We are supposed to come to it in faith and then pick it up and begin to walk as God desires. That is Scripture... taking from that model changes Scripture.

Sorry, I don't think you entirely get what I'm saying. Perhaps that's my error, in over-emphasizing a point or simply not being clear enough. But to put it as clearly as I can, I'm talking about justification by faith through grace alone. That man, according to his own reason, power or strength cannot, by any works or means, pay for or merit salvation, because salvation is entirely a free gift from God. If we fail to understand this, we fail to understand the Gospel, and it's no longer a Gospel but law.

We can talk about God's grace in many ways, but in context of salvation, I denote only our Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel, for all Scriptures points to Jesus; he is the alpha and omega, and no other name saves.

What I've been talking about specifically in relation to salvation and baptism is this:
God's Word say that the blood of Christ washes away sins. It also say that baptism washes away sins. These are not contrary, or different means for salvation, for they point to the same thing - God's mercy through His son, Jesus Christ. Baptism is therefore not a way around Jesus, for it's a baptism into Jesus, by the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And this is only apprehended through faith. All of which is a free gift from God and not something we work.

Baptism shouldn't be confused with good works, namely, loving God, loving our neighbour and obedience to Christ, for the fruit of the Spirit does not precede faith, but follows and comes out of faith.

It's good to talk about obedience to God through Christ, but part of this obedience is taking baptism at its promise the way that it's revealed to us by God's Word. Consider who instituted baptism. It's not a religious rite made by men, but it was instituted and commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ with the promise of life. It's the power of God.
If he gave us baptism with the promise of forgiveness of sins, the Holy Spirit, life and adoption, why then, should we be skeptical or act against that? Shouldn't we rather rejoice in his word and promise? Again, baptism is not something outside Christ, or a way around Christ, but it's a baptism into Christ, through repentance and faith. Obedience and good work naturally follows from being in Christ. Or as Paul puts it: "we uphold the law!"

Ephesians 4:5 say that we have one Lord, one faith, one baptism - not three different means for salvation, but one: Christ Jesus crucified. Romans 6 explains that through baptism, we were baptized into Christ's death and made alive to God.

I hope this clarifies some, and I would encourage you to read everything the Bible has to say about baptism and being born again. It's not without reason it's written:

Acts 2:38: "And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Mark 16:16: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Galatians 3:27: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

John 3:5: "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

 

[JoeP222w]

that He wills no man to perish.

Referring to the elect.

If you say this is referring to the non-elect, then this implies that God fails in what He wills and is thus not sovereign.

God does not work evil, only good.

God uses means to display His mercy, grace and love and also His righteous and holy wrath against sin. God has a sovereign decree, and He uses evil, while not being the author of evil to accomplish His plans and purpose.

Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

If we are of the opinion that God made some for eternal damnation, we're going against, at least to my knowledge, the vast majority of Christian teaching,

This would be a denial of God's sovereign autonomous free will. Does God not have the right to do with His creation as He sees fit?

Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[Ken Rank]

Sorry, I don't think you entirely get what I'm saying. Perhaps that's my error, in over-emphasizing a point or simply not being clear enough. But to put it as clearly as I can, I'm talking about justification by faith through grace alone. That man, according to his own reason, power or strength cannot, by any works or means, pay for or merit salvation, because salvation is entirely a free gift from God. If we fail to understand this, we fail to understand the Gospel, and it's no longer a Gospel but law.

We do have a different view of and appreciation for... the Law. But that said, I have no issue with what you say above. If we could do ANYTHING to be saved, we wouldn't need Yeshua's work, that should be obvious. That doesn't abrogate works or obedience, it just means we are not saved by them.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Thursday]

Man is spiritually dead in sin! Apart from regeneration, man will always reject God and the gospel of Christ

Wrong. Christ is drawing ALL men to himself. The grace that brings salvation has appeared to ALL Men. ALL have been made alive in Christ.

Your dogma directly contradicts scripture:

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Christ is drawing all men. Now we have a choice to make. Follow, or reject his will and lead a life of sin.

 

[Thursday]

Referring to the elect.

That's not what the bible says.

Why distort scripture?

 

[JoeP222w]

That's not what the bible says.

The Bible disagrees with you:


2 Peter 3:1-10 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, (2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, (3) knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. (4) They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." (5) For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, (6) and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. (7) But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (8) But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Peter is addressing believers in Jesus Christ (the elect): "you, beloved".

Why distort scripture?

I did no such thing.

 

[Thursday]

The Bible disagrees with you:


2 Peter 3:1-10 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, (2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, (3) knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. (4) They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." (5) For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, (6) and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. (7) But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (8) But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Peter is addressing believers in Jesus Christ (the elect): "you, beloved".



I did no such thing.

You distort scripture when you claim that God doesn't want all men to be saved.

Peter doesn't agree with your man made dogma:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Nor does Paul:

1 Tim 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Regarding sovereignty ... yes, God is sovereign. He CAN DO anything He likes.

But that does not imply He MUST DO anything at all, especially to "prove" His sovereignty.

He CAN certainly desire a thing, a thing He could enforce if He so chose. He can also choose not to enforce His will upon a creature. That doesn't mean that He isn't sovereign. It just means He doesn't force His will in every case.

 

[JoeP222w]

You distort scripture when you claim that God doesn't want all men to be saved.

Peter doesn't agree with your man made dogma:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Nor does Paul:

1 Tim 2:4
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

It is called eisegesis when you ignore the context of a passage.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Yes this topic has everything to do with how we understand God and His gospel that saves in Christ.. Arminianism is works salvation. Roman Catholicisms core belief is arminian. Arminianism is a false gospel. So who is my brother and sister Ken? Am I not showing love by telling you the truth?

This is inaccurate. The RC soteriology is based on that of St. Augustine, Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas. It predates Arminius, who was a Protestant, by centuries. It is closer to Arminianism than Calvinism, but Orthodox soteriology is closer still to the Arminian model (Orthodox theosis and Wesleyan entire sanctification soteriology are almost identical, differing only in that John Wesley adhered to sola fide).

 

[Daniel9v9]

Referring to the elect.

If you say this is referring to the non-elect, then this implies that God fails in what He wills and is thus not sovereign.



God uses means to display His mercy, grace and love and also His righteous and holy wrath against sin. God has a sovereign decree, and He uses evil, while not being the author of evil to accomplish His plans and purpose.

Isaiah 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.



This would be a denial of God's sovereign autonomous free will. Does God not have the right to do with His creation as He sees fit?

Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Put very simply - I don't deny God's omnipotence, or that God may even use things of evil nature (as a result of our sin and rebellion) for good, or predestination, or justification by faith through grace alone. However, if we were to state that God creates evil, that somehow He is the ultimate source of evil, or something that even vaguely amounts to the same, I have to put my foot down, for God is good and holy, and to this Scripture abundantly and explicitly testify!

The sum of problem you're getting at is the Problem of Evil and Crux Theologorum, both which are unanswerable, because God's Word only presents us with a paradox - as God's ways and His truth are higher than our ability reason. This is why I reject the idea of double predestination, that God actively choose some for eternal damnation - that sin and hell are actively imputed on some.
I don't know what your local church looks like or what they profess, but even Reformed today reject this dogma and believe in a "passing over" rather than an active damnation. I'm pretty confident that if you pick up any systematic theology from any major denomination or Christian branch, it will not claim that God is the source of any evil whatsoever, but only that God is entirely good and holy.

As Paul says - there is no injustice on God's part in judging Esau - why? Because of Esau's own sin and rebellion before God, not because God made Esau evil. And the context of the verses you quoted are about God's righteous judgment, which is good in itself, because it belongs to the nature of God, who is righteous and good.

 

[JoeP222w]

This is why I reject the idea of double predestination, that God actively choose some for eternal damnation

Man, by his Adamic nature is already condemned. Does God not have the right to with His creation as He chooses? That is the question. Your response seems to indicate that you believe God does not have the right to make vessels for dishonor (i.e. eternal damnation). I see no other way to understand this other than a denial of God's autonomous free will to do with His creation as He so wills. This does not make God the author of evil (nor do I claim that God is the author of evil), but He does have a decretive will. And that will is that some He will save and some will remain condemned because of their sins against Him. That is also not to say that we know who is to be saved or who remains condemned. God has not revealed that to us.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The amazing part about Romans 9 is not that God hated Esau, but rather that He loved Jacob. God is not obliged to save a single person, yet He chooses to. That is what is so wondrous about God's grace. He did have to love any of us, yet He does!

 

[Daniel9v9]

Man, by his Adamic nature is already condemned. Does God not have the right to with His creation as He chooses? That is the question. Your response seems to indicate that you believe God does not have the right to make vessels for dishonor (i.e. eternal damnation). I see no other way to understand this other than a denial of God's autonomous free will to do with His creation as He so wills. This does not make God the author of evil (nor do I claim that God is the author of evil), but He does have a decretive will. And that will is that some He will save and some will remain condemned because of their sins against Him. That is also not to say that we know who is to be saved or who remains condemned. God has not revealed that to us.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The amazing part about Romans 9 is not that God hated Esau, but rather that He loved Jacob. God is not obliged to save a single person, yet He chooses to. That is what is so wondrous about God's grace. He did have to love any of us, yet He does!

There is nothing here I disagree in or object to - what I've been saying is simply that God is not the source of evil; that there is a distinction to be made between God using what is evil on its own accord for good, which Scripture testify to, as opposed to God creating evil in order to display power or grace, which is false and not found anywhere in Scriptures.
e.g. God hardening Pharaoh is an example of God withholding grace (namely truth, faith and true knowledge about God) and not God somehow maliciously deceiving Pharaoh into unbelief.

Perhaps this is a trivial distinction, but I've seen many blurring the lines, which is why I stress it.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

... .. as opposed to God creating evil in order to display power or grace, which is false and not found anywhere in Scriptures.
e.g. God hardening Pharaoh is an example of God withholding grace (namely truth, faith and true knowledge about God) and not God somehow maliciously deceiving Pharaoh into unbelief.

Perhaps this is a trivial distinction, but I've seen many blurring the lines, which is why I stress it.

The same distinction would have to be placed on the example of whether the man born blind was evil or was it that way for God's glory.