Does God call and then give us a choice to respond to his call?

[CoconutPrincess]

A lot of what we read can be divided between indicatives and imperatives. They either describe a believer or they are commands to a believer.

For instance, "If you love Me you will keep My commandments". Some will see this as a command to keep the commandments as to prove our love. others will see it as a result of our love for Him.

The reformed view always has us as responders to what God had done or is doing. We love because He loves. We believe because we've been born again. We obey because we are His children.

Hope that sheds some light.

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.

It sheds light for sure. I like the point you make about "If you love me"... that is something I discovered a few years ago, on how you can read that scripture. When I went through a trial in my life, I was questioning, "do I obey because I'm just trying to prove that I love Him?" or "am I obeying because I do love Him"... it was a strong-hold, but I've grown alot since then and God has shown me so much

 

[faceofbear]

Bill,

I do not disagree that those who believe are elect, and those who are elected believe. But we are not justified by faith, nor is my election dependent on believing! We were eternally justified before God in Christ before the foundations of the world. Ephesians is very clear on this. It is by grace ye have been saved. I am not elected because I believe, I believe because I am elected. This order shouldn't matter too much to the unbeliever, but to say that we have the free choice is a miscarriage of grace, and harms the soul. Why? Because they believe on their belief if you say they have the choice, they do not believe on Christ.

I don't believe the unbelieving mind needs to accept the sovereignty of God to be saved, I believe the believing mind bows to it. However, I know that saying God chooses His elect is a stumbling block, yet it shouldn't be because it's the only way any of us are saved. But I do believe that stating we choose God or have the ability to believe is also an injustice. We should only point to Christ, because if we say we have the ability to believe, we're depending on a work and not grace, and on our selves, not God. And I have had more doubts from believing faith is a work to be saved, than I've had time struggling with the sovereignty of God in salvation, which ultimately, gave me assurance and a genuine trust on Christ -- though I do say that trust does waver. All the same, I am secure, because I know it is dependent not on the strength of my trust, but on the blood of Christ.

Oh, well I read something on his site entitled "Why I'm A Calvinist"... but maybe I need to go back and reread it.

Can you explain "that the elect were NOT eternally justified, but ONLY justified once they had faith, which is unbiblical." I thought it was our faith that saved us.

I am not saying that MacArthur does not PROFESS to be a Calvinist, but that through what I know of him, his doctrines aren't very Calvinistic. Though there are some in his congregation that are, but not many. My point is, many people think themselves Calvinists, but aren't. If you believe Christ died for the world, you are not a Calvinist. Simple as that. Or you could be considered a "low" Calvinist, which is just a misjustice to logic, and rather just afraid to admit you're an Arminian, or somewheres in between (which can't logically exist, but some people take that stance anyways).

In regards to not being eternally justified, read Ephesians. And no, we are not saved by faith. To believe we are saved by faith is to believe on a good work to move God to save you, and is not dependent on grace. Faith is not a work.

High Calvinists affirm the same thing(s) that you typed here.

High Calvinist: Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink


If you wish, I can show you verses in which not even a honest Arminian would dare say that all actually means the entirety of mankind -- as it pertains to salvation.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

If you wish, I can show you verses in which not even a honest Arminian would dare say that all actually means the entirety of mankind -- as it pertains to salvation.

I would like to see the verses Thanks!

 

[the particular baptist]

High Calvinist: Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink

And many many more, before and after Andrew Fuller.

 

[Hupomone10]

This order shouldn't matter too much to the unbeliever, but to say that we have the free choice is a miscarriage of grace, and harms the soul. Why? Because they believe on their belief if you say they have the choice, they do not believe on Christ.

Only those who believe on their belief believe on their belief. The same could be easily said of those who find confidence in the doctrine of election. They believe they are elect, and they believe on this belief and find confidence in it instead of the finished work of Christ on the Cross. They are finding security in the grace and sovereignty of God alone as though God would separate that from the shed blood of Christ and His propitiatory sacrifice. I do not believe on my belief, I believe on Christ. A person who accepts that justification is by faith in Christ does find security in the fact that he is believing correctly and his confidence is in the right place. The person who accepts that justification came before time totally apart from the sacrifice of Christ and before they believed finds security in the fact that they are believing correctly and his confidence is in the right place. There is no difference. Both are doing the same thing, just with a different slant on it. Believing on belief is for the most part a straw man.

We should only point to Christ, because if we say we have the ability to believe, we're depending on a work and not grace, and on our selves, not God.

When we "point to Christ" we're saying we have the ability to point to Christ. Pointing to Christ is no different than believing in Christ. Neither are works, or else both are. If believing in Christ is a work, then believing in election is a work, and it is faith in the wrong source. A doctrine didn't die for us, a doctrine cannot save us.

More importantly, in Scripture grace is never contrasted with faith. Grace and faith are always on the same side of the fence in God's mind. Grace is contrasted with works, and faith is contrasted with works. To misunderstand this will cause crippling in actual living of the Christian life.

And I have had more doubts from believing faith is a work to be saved, than I've had time struggling with the sovereignty of God in salvation, which ultimately, gave me assurance and a genuine trust on Christ -- though I do say that trust does waver. All the same, I am secure, because I know it is dependent not on the strength of my trust, but on the blood of Christ.

Amen!

I am not saying that MacArthur does not PROFESS to be a Calvinist, but that through what I know of him, his doctrines aren't very Calvinistic. Though there are some in his congregation that are, but not many. My point is, many people think themselves Calvinists, but aren't. If you believe Christ died for the world, you are not a Calvinist. Simple as that. Or you could be considered a "low" Calvinist, which is just a misjustice to logic, and rather just afraid to admit you're an Arminian, or somewheres in between (which can't logically exist, but some people take that stance anyways).

Some people don't see the Christian life and conversion as a choice between Calvinism and Arminianism, but rather a choice to trust Christ rather than self. The one who has chosen Calvinism has just a surely made a choice as anyone who is accused of trusting in their ability to choose by virtue of their fleeing for refuge to the Cross of Christ. There definitely is a middle ground. It is called looking to Scripture rather than man's spin on scripture and man's doctrinal systems. I am thankful my trust is in Christ and not man's doctrinal systems, whatever they are called.

In regards to not being eternally justified, read Ephesians. And no, we are not saved by faith. To believe we are saved by faith is to believe on a good work to move God to save you, and is not dependent on grace. Faith is not a work.

Again, the very book you are quoting puts grace and faith on the same side of the fence, not opposites. By grace we are saved through faith, and it cannot be otherwise. You cannot, cannot be justified until faith in placed in Christ. This is an extreme error, brother. All of scripture when taken together points to this. Even the chapter you are referring to. We are saved by grace, and we are saved by faith. We are justified by faith. Brother, I know you have had struggles, and I don't wish to mix anything into the mix that will cause doubts, for I truly believe you have embraced Christ and have "passed out of death into life." But please consider scripture rather than just books or whatever those who find confidence in man's doctrinal systems are telling you. Multiple times Paul said we are justified by faith, multiple times; and that cannot be washed away by a passage that doesn't mention faith, because there are too many others that do. Just something to consider.

If you wish, I can show you verses in which not even a honest Arminian would dare say that all actually means the entirety of mankind -- as it pertains to salvation.

And I can show you verses where "all" and "any" that an honest Calvinist would admit refer to all and any, were they honest.

It is not so much an issue of honesty, as our own unrenewed minds and the bias that comes from the fleshly unrenewed thinking that we aren't even aware is still there..

Blessings, my brother,
Bill

 

[Hammster]

Bill,

I do not disagree that those who believe are elect, and those who are elected believe. But we are not justified by faith, nor is my election dependent on believing! We were eternally justified before God in Christ before the foundations of the world. Ephesians is very clear on this. It is by grace ye have been saved. I am not elected because I believe, I believe because I am elected. This order shouldn't matter too much to the unbeliever, but to say that we have the free choice is a miscarriage of grace, and harms the soul. Why? Because they believe on their belief if you say they have the choice, they do not believe on Christ.

I think you are confusing election with salvation. While election is in some way part of salvation, it isn't salvation. We are elected to salvation. We are still justified by faith. Read Romans 4 and 5. But if you can show where Ephesians shows justification before creation, I'd be interested to hear your argument.

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.

 

[student ad x]

...... But if you can show where Ephesians shows justification before creation, I'd be interested to hear your argument.

....... or Romans 8. "Cage stage"

 

[student ad x]

.............. which Spurgeon was more of an extremely low Calvinist* (which really isn't Calvinist at all) later into his Pastorship (made up that word -- sounds good to me). In fact, Spurgeon was even rebuked many times by other Calvinist's for telling others that they were justified BY faith, and that Christ died the world. To my knowledge, earlier in his preaching he was more of a Calvinist, but towards the end he strayed a little bit from that. And even directly states in some of his sermons that we are made well by faith in Christ, not through (referencing Mark 5:34).

Errrmmm, discernment brother

Have you read Peter Toon's The Emergence of Hyper Calvinism in English non-Conformity yet? Just a suggestion.

 

[RobertZ]

You cannot, cannot be justified until faith in placed in Christ.

I have a question Bill, how does one place faith in Christ and if a person isnt justified until he places his faith in Christ then isnt that a work in some shape or form?

Im saved because I placed my faith in Christ? How can I not be doing something to get my salvation if I have to first place my faith in Christ? I just dont get it, Jesus paid it all but I still have to place my faith in him? Its as if Christ didnt really do enough and I have to do my part to complete the work and that cant be right? can it?

 

[Hammster]

I have a question Bill, how does one place faith in Christ and if a person isnt justified until he places his faith in Christ then isnt that a work in some shape or form?

Im saved because I placed my faith in Christ? How can I not be doing something to get my salvation if I have to first place my faith in Christ? I just dont get it, Jesus paid it all but I still have to place my faith in him? Its as if Christ didnt really do enough and I have to do my part to complete the work and that cant be right? can it?

Placing faith in Christ is a result of being born again, not the cause. It's a work of salvation, not a work for salvation.

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.

 

[RobertZ]

Placing faith in Christ is a result of being born again, not the cause. It's a work of salvation, not a work for salvation.

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.

And once you are born again you are justified right?

 

[Hammster]

And once you are born again you are justified right?

No, once you are born again you are given the faith that justifies. It may happen simultaneously. We are talking about the logical order.

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.

 

[Hammster]

Hamm, can you seriously like just shut the f_uck up. Your annoying the p_iss out of everyone on this thread.. seriously... -_-

Is your mom not letting you out of the basement again?

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.

 

[Hupomone10]

I have a question Bill, how does one place faith in Christ and if a person isnt justified until he places his faith in Christ then isnt that a work in some shape or form?

Im saved because I placed my faith in Christ? How can I not be doing something to get my salvation if I have to first place my faith in Christ? I just dont get it, Jesus paid it all but I still have to place my faith in him? Its as if Christ didnt really do enough and I have to do my part to complete the work and that cant be right? can it?

If you don't like "place your faith in" you can choose any of several different word forms. The fact is that we put faith either in self or in Christ. God accomplished salvation through Christ. Christ is everything and man nothing. The correct response to that is faith in Him who is everything instead of in me who can produce nothing of any spiritual value. When faith is in Christ rather than self or the other things we believe in, justification happens. This is really not hard. This is the first place I've seen it made into something hard, either to do or to understand. In 30 + years the people I've run into, saved and lost, have understood what was meant when told that man chose to go astray, each to "his own way" and that God desired us to turn from that and rely on Christ both for salvation from the penalty of sin and rely on Him for strength to live the Christian life. They knew they had lived their own life, and that God was asking them to turn from that and from self-trust to Christ-trust.

It's really that simple.

Blessings, brother,
Bill

 

[faceofbear]

Bill,

By grace through faith. Not by faith through grace. A seemingly small change of words makes a great deal to the eternal destiny of someone's soul.

As many as are ordained unto eternal life, believe. They aren't ordained by their faith. I'm not saying faith isn't important, it is. But faith doesn't save. And as long as someone thinks faith the equivalent of salvation, their minds will be darkened to the glory of the Gospel. That is, Christ dying for the ungodly because they can't accept Him due to the enslavement of sin.

 

[Hammster]

Bill,

By grace through faith. Not by faith through grace. A seemingly small change of words makes a great deal to the eternal destiny of someone's soul.

As many as are ordained unto eternal life, believe. They aren't ordained by their faith. I'm not saying faith isn't important, it is. But faith doesn't save.

Explain Romans 4 and 5.

Silly Forum Runner. It's magically delicious.

 

[faceofbear]

Explain Romans 4 and 5.

Silly Forum Runner. It's magically delicious.

Through faith.

 

[faceofbear]

Oh and...


6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

(And in case you reference 5:1)

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith
Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see ( Romans 4:25 ) ; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it; and so we come to

have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The apostle having set the doctrine of justification in a clear light, and fully proved that it is not by the works of men, but by the righteousness of God; and having mentioned the several causes of it, proceeds to consider its effects, among which, peace with God stands in the first place; and is so called, to distinguish it from peace with men, which persons, though justified by faith in Christ's righteousness, may not have; but are sure, having a sense of this, to find peace with God, even with him against whom they have sinned, whose law they have transgressed, and whose justice they have affronted; reconciliation for sin being made, and a justifying righteousness brought in, and this imputed and applied to them, they have that "peace of God", that tranquillity and serenity of mind, the same with "peace with God" here, "which passes all understanding", ( Philippians 4:7 ) ; and is better experienced than expressed: and this is all through our Lord Jesus Christ; it springs from his atoning sacrifice, and precious blood, by which he has made peace; and is communicated through the imputation of his righteousness, and the application of his blood; and is only felt and enjoyed in a way of believing, by looking to him as the Lord our righteousness.
-Gill
​

 

[Hammster]

Gill tends towards hyper-Calvinism. Seems that you are, too.

Silly Forum Runner. It's magically delicious.

 

[DeaconDean]

Gill tends towards hyper-Calvinism.

Normally, I would agree with you, but saying Gill is a Hyper-calvinist is debatable at best and cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

God Bless

Till all are one.