Does God call and then give us a choice to respond to his call?

RobertZ

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Is that correct? I know we are dead in our sins and trespasses but how does that take away our responsibility to either corporate or resist the work of the Holy Spirit? Yes we are dead in our sins but when God awakens a sinner by calling him the sinner then has the responsibility to either accept or reject the call right? So God calls and then its up to us to respond?

I know that a whole lot of Calvinist have even said themselves that not everyone awakened by the Holy Spirit is saved, some are awakened yet they go back to sleep in their slumber and I have to ask how would that even be possible unless the person who goes back to sleep chooses to do so?
 

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RobertZ said:
Is that correct? I know we are dead in our sins and trespasses but how does that take away our responsibility to either corporate or resist the work of the Holy Spirit? Yes we are dead in our sins but when God awakens a sinner by calling him the sinner then has the responsibility to either accept or reject the call right? So God calls and then its up to us to respond?

I know that a whole lot of Calvinist have even said themselves that not everyone awakened by the Holy Spirit is saved, some are awakened yet they go back to sleep in their slumber and I have to ask how would that even be possible unless the person who goes back to sleep chooses to do so?

Where are the awake and sleep references in Scripture? Where does it say that we are awakened by the Holy Spirit??

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CoconutPrincess

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I think I agree with what you're saying. God is calling all to be saved. He wills that all would be saved, not his will in the sense he will carry it out otherwise all would be saved, but his heart doesn't want to see anyone perish.

It is up to us to accept or reject. Some say that God chooses and so people don't have a choice to accept Him or reject Him and then people who go to hell are there simply because God didn't "choose" them. If God is just, how is it just to not pick someone to be saved and then allow them to be punished for not picking Him?

Some also believe that God chooses based on if we would have chosen Him because He knows who would have and who wouldn't. There isn't anything Biblical about that, however, who knows God's reasons for choosing certain people, IF that is how we get saved.

I do not believe that the Bible teaches that He chooses who will be saved. He calls everyone and all people everywhere will be given the chance to know how to be saved. They can feel the call of the Spirit, but choose to reject Him and other choose to accept. No one can come unless the Spirit draws Him, meaning, if the Spirit wasn't drawing people, no one would be saved, so He draws all people because God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, but sadly, many reject Him.

There is a parable of the seed falling on certain types of ground and I think that parable reflects accurately of how we are called and if we accept or reject.

God bless!
 
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savedfromdistruction

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Hello Robert. What you are talking about is what is called predetermined election verses free will and can get very deep as well as become a very messy can of worms. The debate rages among those who claim Calvinism and those who are not, Arminianism. I have never heard of a true Calvinist that claims a person who has had an efficacious call and them not accept the call.
Most Calvinists break the call down into two different types. One is the general call that they claim we all have and the other is the efficacious call that is only for those who are elect, the predetermind saved.

While they claim that each person has a choice they also claim that everyone who has the efficacious call always accepts the call, no one turns away because it is predetermind by God that they will be saved. They also claim that the person has a responsibility to respond to the call and are not forced. While they can point to scripture as evidence of their teachings there is also a great debate as to the intent of the scripture as there are passages that seem to contradict what they hold as truth.

The other side claims that there is a general call and that each person decides if they will accept the call. They too have scripture to back up their belief and it is just a sound as the scripture that the Calvinist uses although neither will admit that to the other. It is my opinion that both hold some truth but each goes too far in their beliefs and make what they hold as vain.

Then there is what is called hyper Calvinism and that is a view that is even further to one side that basically teaches everything is already set and done by God and we are just playing it all out. They claim that everything that ever happens in all history is ordained by God and they go even further then that.

I never make a personal claim to be of Calvinism or of Arminianism. Both have some good points and bad. While each side looks down on the other and spends time arguing their views the truth is that neither side try's to win a sinner to the Lord with their view. They both simply use the gospel. So my suggestion is not to worry about it at this point as all it does is divide and causes some to stumble.
 
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ashout

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the people who fall back asleep, at least some of them, fall back asleep becuase they get tricked into thinking that there's no point to being awake. The devil convinces them that they have sinned to much and as such are going to go to hell, and they say to themselfs "If I'm going to hell anyways, then WHY bother being righteous?" all they wanted in life was to please God, they didn't want to do what's right otherwise.
 
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Skala

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Hi robert,

I believe scripture speaks plainly of two kinds of callings.

One is what you might refer to as the "outward call". It is when God uses preachers and evangelists and Christians to preach the gospel to every creature. God is commanding all men to repent, because all men are sinners. God's holiness requires him to command sinners to repent.

But the problem is, this outward call doesn't accomplish anything. Because all men are fallen and unregenerate by nature, haters of God, enemies of God, in rebellion to God, cannot understand the spiritual things of God, and find the gospel as foolishness.

Thus the only way anyone at all is saved is by what you might call the inward call. This is the call of God that actually comes to us and changes us. It makes us born again. It gives a new nature. It replaces the stony heart with the heart made of flesh (alive). It turns our will around so that we go from unwilling to willing. It removes the blindfold so that we can see Christ's beauty. It results in us seeing our sin for what it is and seeing that Christ is a worthy savior.

When this inward call happens, it results in salvation 100% of the time, every time. Obviously it doesn't happen to everyone because not everyone is saved. This is where the doctrine of election comes into play.

Eph 2:1-4 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins ...but God...made you alive...

Acts 16:14 The Lord opened [Lydia's] heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."


Joh 3:5-8
(5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
(8) The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Jas 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Eph 2:8-10
(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.


1Co 1:22-24
(22) For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
(23) but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
(24) but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

{Emphasis mine}
 
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CoconutPrincess

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That answer is "true" if someone holds to this doctrine. Many verses can be interpreted as election and they can also be interpreted not election.

Robert, you should pray and ask God to lead you to truth. Don't always take what people say in forums (including me) because many hold to different doctrines and much scripture supports all of them. It is a matter of interpretation when it comes to these areas. I always pray that the Lord would enable me to interpret correctly so that I don't form a belief in a doctrine that might not be true.

I use to believe in the doctrine of election, but I do not anymore. When I look at many of the scriptures to support this doctrine, I can see how they can be interpreted a different way. I'm still pondering these things, but I at this point, I stand by my first reply to you.
 
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Skala

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I use to believe in the doctrine of election, but I do not anymore. When I look at many of the scriptures to support this doctrine, I can see how they can be interpreted a different way

Sister are you aware that both Calvinists and Arminians believe in Election? (In other words, all Christians believe in election because all Christians fall into one of these two theological frameworks)

A) Calvinists believe in election, and believe that God elects who will believe.

B) Arminians believe in election because they believe God foresees who will believe and so elects them on that basis.

So every Christian believes in election. The question is not "Does the Bible teach election?" Because it does. The answer is "Yes". It teaches election. No debating that point. The question is "What does election mean? Either A or B?"

Just wanted to clarify :)
 
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CoconutPrincess

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Sister are you aware that both Calvinists and Arminians believe in Election? (In other words, all Christians believe in election because all Christians fall into one of these two theological frameworks)

A) Calvinists believe in election, and believe that God elects who will believe.

B) Arminians believe in election because they believe God foresees who will believe and so elects them on that basis.

So every Christian believes in election. The question is not "Does the Bible teach election?" Because it does. The answer is "Yes". It teaches election. No debating that point. The question is "What does election mean? Either A or B?"

Just wanted to clarify :)

Thank you :) I was not aware that both believe in election and I guess I should study more because I see such different interpretations with the same scripture.

God bless you!
 
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RobertZ

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Thank you :) I was not aware that both believe in election and I guess I should study more because I see such different interpretations with the same scripture.

God bless you!


They do but only one of those two views are correct.
 
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faceofbear

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Even some Arminians (at least earlier ones) are very close to Calvinism. In fact, they believe that God's prevenient grace (enabling one to accept the Gospel) comes but then on top of this prevenient grace, God will give a SECOND grace to certain people to get as close to forcing them to believe as possible, without actually forcing them. They believe in total depravity, just that we were freed from it through prevenient grace. Which, essentially, is VERY close to the Calvinist view of election. Minus the choosing part. :p
 
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RobertZ

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Even some Arminians (at least earlier ones) are very close to Calvinism. In fact, they believe that God's prevenient grace (enabling one to accept the Gospel) comes but then on top of this prevenient grace, God will give a SECOND grace to certain people to get as close to forcing them to believe as possible, without actually forcing them. They believe in total depravity, just that we were freed from it through prevenient grace. Which, essentially, is VERY close to the Calvinist view of election. Minus the choosing part. :p


Do you think they could be right?
 
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Skala

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Do you think they could be right?

Arminians? Not a chance :cool:

Not a single Bible verse says that God foresees faith and elects on that basis.

But there is a basis given for God's election (and it isn't faith), but rather:

"According to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph 1)

and "So that God's purpose in election mind stand" (Rom 9)

The basis of election is....God. And his grace.
 
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CoconutPrincess

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Arminians? Not a chance :cool:

Not a single Bible verse says that God foresees faith and elects on that basis.

But there is a basis given for God's election (and it isn't faith), but rather:

"According to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph 1)

and "So that God's purpose in election mind stand" (Rom 9)

The basis of election is....God. And his grace.

How is it just for God to not save someone but then allow them to go to Hell because they didn't choose Him? He didn't allow them to choose Him so how can he condemn them for not choosing?

Even though there is no scripture to support God forseeing faith, we don't know the mind of God. No one knows why He chooses who He chooses. Yes, the good pleasure of His will, but what does He base His will on? What makes Him choose one and not the other? We don't know what He is thinking. We know the purpose of election, but we really don't know the mind behind it. I hope I make sense.
 
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Hammster

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CoconutPrincess said:
How is it just for God to not save someone but then allow them to go to Hell because they didn't choose Him? He didn't allow them to choose Him so how can he condemn them for not choosing?

Even though there is no scripture to support God forseeing faith, we don't know the mind of God. No one knows why He chooses who He chooses. Yes, the good pleasure of His will, but what does He base His will on? What makes Him choose one and not the other? We don't know what He is thinking. We know the purpose of election, but we really don't know the mind behind it. I hope I make sense.

People aren't co Denver because they don't choose God.

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Hammster

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CoconutPrincess said:
co Denver?

Talk about a weird auto-correct. And poor editing. ^_^

People aren't condemned because they don't choose God.

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