Does God call and then give us a choice to respond to his call?

[DeaconDean]

I think sister CP, you should invest a little time and read Martin Luther's greak work: "The Bondage of the Will".

And Arthur W. Pink's work "The Sovereignty of God and the Human Will".

I think these will clear up a lot and help with a better understanding.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Skala]

Yes exactly, but I know my friend will throw that scripture at me and I want to be prepared!

She probably will, but just let her know that verses that say "if anyone is willing", or "whoever will" don't do anything to refute the doctrine of election.

It is still true that whoever is willing to come, may come. So pointing that out is irrelevent

In this case it actually does. Pas is used here as an adjective modifying "the people. There is no additional modifiers. You are getting outside of the text to attempt to explain it which is never a good thing. Later on the scriptures tells us about Herod and the Pharisees and their reasons for rejecting the Messiah but this is separate to the text of Luke 2:10.

Indeed it modifies the people but that doesn't mean it isn't a figure of speech

"The whole world has gone after Christ" <-not literally every individual.

And, did people who lived and died long before Christ was born experience joy from Christ's birth? Obviously not. Thus we see that even the phrase "all people" doesn't mean "every individual that has ever or will ever be born into the human race"

 

[Hentenza]

Indeed it modifies the people but that doesn't mean it isn't a figure of speech

"The whole world has gone after Christ" <-not literally every individual.

And, did people who lived and died long before Christ was born experience joy from Christ's birth? Obviously not. Thus we see that even the phrase "all people" doesn't mean "every individual that has ever or will ever be born into the human race"

You are reaching and straying from the text. The primary meaning of the singular "the people" in vs. 10 is the Jewish people since everywhere else in Luke that is what it refers to, however, Luke further expands to include the gentiles in vs. 32 (quote from Isaiah 49).

 

[Skala]

You are reaching and straying from the text. The primary meaning of the singular "the people" in vs. 10 is the Jewish people since everywhere else in Luke that is what it refers to, however, Luke further expands to include the gentiles in vs. 32 (quote from Isaiah 49).

So it is your position that pagan Gentile nations in the Old Testament (who didn't even know about Christ) found great joy in the birth of the (future) Messiah?

 

[Hentenza]

So it is your position that pagan Gentile nations in the Old Testament (who didn't even know about Christ) found great joy in the birth of the (future) Messiah? (since you insist it means all individuals that will ever live in history?)

Nope. Christ had not been born yet. I have never made the claim that it applied to any people of past times since that is not within the text. You are still reaching. lol

 

[faceofbear]

Hmmm... well he does say he's calvinist and he teaches what calvin teaches as far as election goes.

Not really. Even when asked if he was a Calvinist, he stated that he was more of a Spurgeonist; which Spurgeon was more of an extremely low Calvinist* (which really isn't Calvinist at all) later into his Pastorship (made up that word -- sounds good to me). In fact, Spurgeon was even rebuked many times by other Calvinist's for telling others that they were justified BY faith, and that Christ died the world. To my knowledge, earlier in his preaching he was more of a Calvinist, but towards the end he strayed a little bit from that. And even directly states in some of his sermons that we are made well by faith in Christ, not through (referencing Mark 5:34).

There is a misconception among a lot of people that call themselves Calvinists, but really, aren't. They simply believe in the eternal security of the believers, and simply don't understand all that Calvinism implies (though I'm sure MacArthur does -- in a purely academic sense, though). Namely the doctrine of unconditional reprobation and limited atonement are both subjects most professing "Calvinists" know nothing of. And when they do hear of it, deny it.

MacArthur stance on election differs from Calvin's. At least from what I've learned from growing up right next to Master's College, and going to church literally right next door to it. And he would, I believe, reject the logical stance that God has predestined reprobates, as well. MacArthur takes a sufficient for all, but efficacious only for those who have faith stance in regards to Christ's blood. Whereas Calvin taught it was sufficient and efficacious only for the elect. MacArthur would also, I believe, perhaps he has not stated his opinion (bear in mind these are my opinions from growing up around that area -- but people are free to correct me), that the elect were NOT eternally justified, but ONLY justified once they had faith, which is unbiblical.

Also, whereas most Calvinist's are not premillenialists, MacArthur is. Which, to my knowledge, is rather heretical and is a rather "new" view. Though my knowledge is severely limited in this subject as I tend to focus more on other areas of Christianity that I am struggling with.

*Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal

 

[Skala]

Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace

High Calvinists affirm the same thing(s) that you typed here.

 

[the particular baptist]

High Calvinists affirm the same thing(s) that you typed here.

Not this one. Fullerites do.

 

[Skala]

Nope. Christ had not been born yet. I have never made the claim that it applied to any people of past times since that is not within the text. You are still reaching. lol

Ok, so "all people" sometimes doesn't refer to every single individual in the human race.

Right?

Then why are we arguing, that was my point all along

 

[CoconutPrincess]

Not really. Even when asked if he was a Calvinist, he stated that he was more of a Spurgeonist; which Spurgeon was more of an extremely low Calvinist* (which really isn't Calvinist at all) later into his Pastorship (made up that word -- sounds good to me). In fact, Spurgeon was even rebuked many times by other Calvinist's for telling others that they were justified BY faith, and that Christ died the world. To my knowledge, earlier in his preaching he was more of a Calvinist, but towards the end he strayed a little bit from that. And even directly states in some of his sermons that we are made well by faith in Christ, not through (referencing Mark 5:34).

There is a misconception among a lot of people that call themselves Calvinists, but really, aren't. They simply believe in the eternal security of the believers, and simply don't understand all that Calvinism implies (though I'm sure MacArthur does -- in a purely academic sense, though). Namely the doctrine of unconditional reprobation and limited atonement are both subjects most professing "Calvinists" know nothing of. And when they do hear of it, deny it.

MacArthur stance on election differs from Calvin's. At least from what I've learned from growing up right next to Master's College, and going to church literally right next door to it. And he would, I believe, reject the logical stance that God has predestined reprobates, as well. MacArthur takes a sufficient for all, but efficacious only for those who have faith stance in regards to Christ's blood. Whereas Calvin taught it was sufficient and efficacious only for the elect. MacArthur would also, I believe, perhaps he has not stated his opinion (bear in mind these are my opinions from growing up around that area -- but people are free to correct me), that the elect were NOT eternally justified, but ONLY justified once they had faith, which is unbiblical.

Also, whereas most Calvinist's are not premillenialists, MacArthur is. Which, to my knowledge, is rather heretical and is a rather "new" view. Though my knowledge is severely limited in this subject as I tend to focus more on other areas of Christianity that I am struggling with.

*Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal

Oh, well I read something on his site entitled "Why I'm A Calvinist"... but maybe I need to go back and reread it.

Can you explain "that the elect were NOT eternally justified, but ONLY justified once they had faith, which is unbiblical." I thought it was our faith that saved us.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

I think sister CP, you should invest a little time and read Martin Luther's greak work: "The Bondage of the Will".

And Arthur W. Pink's work "The Sovereignty of God and the Human Will".

I think these will clear up a lot and help with a better understanding.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thank you I have a few other things to read and I look forward to reading these as well.

 

[Hupomone10]

MacArthur would also, I believe, perhaps he has not stated his opinion ... that the elect were NOT eternally justified, but ONLY justified once they had faith, which is unbiblical.

John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

For the person, it hinges on faith in Christ. In the gospel presentation to man, God presents the responsibility to believe in Christ realizing one is a sinner with no right to God whatsoever in himself.

Rom 3:30
since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom 4:16
For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace"

Rom 5:1. 2
"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"

"through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand"

Rom 9:30
"even the righteousness which is by faith"

Gal 2:16
"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus"

Gal 3:8, 22
"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith"

"that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal 3:24
"that we may be justified by faith."

There are verses that specifically say "justified by faith", therefore it is definitely Biblical, regardless of one's take-away from that. I'm not aware of any verses that say"justified by election", even though justification always starts with God. And even though it starts with God and therefore there will be verses that confirm this, the process always ends with man's response. In Paul's theology, even though justification may be mentioned both in the context of grace and the context of faith, faith in Christ vs one's self is never left out.

Salvation for man, in the mind of God, is impossible without the death of His Son through which all those who believe were put to death in Christ. The soul that sins shall die. This was always God's holy law and always will be. God in his perfect righteousness and holiness cannot and will not justify a person by an arbitrary choice on His part. It is not just His choice because Holy God cannot do unrighteousness. He cannot justify a person based on His arbitrary choice. The one who sins must die. The only way Holy God can fellowship with man is to put him to death. The believer is put to death in God's Son. This is always God's emphasis and the overall emphasis of the New Testament epistles. That is why overemphasis on just the election of God, even though going under the guise of giving God the credit, is a distraction from the message and doesn't do justice to the big picture.

If a person believes in Christ, they are one of the elect. If they are one of the elect, they believe in Christ.

There is no evidence nor assurance of election apart from faith in Christ. To believe one is elect is not the thrust of the New Testament message, but to believe in Christ. The elect believe, believers are elect. Beyond that, this obsession is not necessary, IMHO.

Having said that, this post was a very good summation of the beliefs. Good job. I only wanted to comment on the above phrase.

God bless,
H.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

If a person believes in Christ, they are one of the elect. If they are one of the elect, they believe in Christ.
H.

I love how you put this. I have noticed with understanding election that it gives the believer security. It is freeing. We don't have to wonder if we're saved, we know we are because God doesn't elect someone just to unelect them later (as far as I know). The elect people of God cannot lose their salvation and that makes me feel at peace and rest in my relationship with God and makes me want to serve Him even more, knowing that he chose me and so I want to "make my election sure" by living out my faith in Him.

I thought there were instances in the Bible where people had lost salvation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

 

[RobertZ]

I thought there were instances in the Bible where people had lost salvation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

No true believer sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption will ever lose his salvation.

God tells us that he WILL finish the good work that HE began in you when he saved you. If you could fall away or lose your salvation that verse couldnt be there neither could the verse about being sealed unto the day of redemption.

Also think about this "Depart from me I NEVER KNEW YOU".

 

[Hammster]

I love how you put this. I have noticed with understanding election that it gives the believer security. It is freeing. We don't have to wonder if we're saved, we know we are because God doesn't elect someone just to unelect them later (as far as I know). The elect people of God cannot lose their salvation and that makes me feel at peace and rest in my relationship with God and makes me want to serve Him even more, knowing that he chose me and so I want to "make my election sure" by living out my faith in Him.

I thought there were instances in the Bible where people had lost salvation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

1John 2

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Is God's gate. He can open it to whom He pleases.

And the Elects were given a Gift of Keys to unlock the gate.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

No true believer sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption will ever lose his salvation.

God tells us that he WILL finish the good work that HE began in you when he saved you. If you could fall away or lose your salvation that verse couldnt be there neither could the verse about being sealed unto the day of redemption.

Also think about this "Depart from me I NEVER KNEW YOU".

Here are some scriptures that would suggest we can lose salvation... would love your thoughts as well as anyone else's

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Luke 12:41-46
Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?” The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:22-23
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

2 Peter 2:20-22
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[RobertZ]

Here are some scriptures that would suggest we can lose salvation... would love your thoughts as well as anyone else's

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.



Luke 12:41-46
Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?” The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:22-23
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

2 Peter 2:20-22
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

You will find this helpful, it covers those passages and will clearly show you that none of them are talking about saved people.

Do These Passages Show You Can Lose Your Salvation? - Come Reason Ministries



Remember, when Jesus tells someone he "NEVER" knew them he really means just that.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

You will find this helpful, it covers those passages and will clearly show you that none of them are talking about saved people.

Do These Passages Show You Can Lose Your Salvation? - Come Reason Ministries

Remember, when Jesus tells someone he "NEVER" knew them he really means just that.

Thanks Robert... I'll check out the link

 

[Hammster]

A lot of what we read can be divided between indicatives and imperatives. They either describe a believer or they are commands to a believer.

For instance, "If you love Me you will keep My commandments". Some will see this as a command to keep the commandments as to prove our love. others will see it as a result of our love for Him.

The reformed view always has us as responders to what God had done or is doing. We love because He loves. We believe because we've been born again. We obey because we are His children.

Hope that sheds some light.

Silly Forum Runner, Trix is for kids.