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Does God allow abortions?

Foxfyre

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The NT rules of God appointed rulers were speaking of the Roman rulers. One does not have to obey any specific ruler but during those days monarchs were universally considered a divine appointment and by extensions their appointments. Paul would not use such language today. He may say to obey laws but today he would not say God has placed a politician in that position.
We vote today, it's all man made appointments, nothing of God about them.

So how come so many of those Christians were crucified as Jesus was, were killed by gladiators or lions or other wild beasts? Paul himself went to prison and, according to tradition was eventually martyred in Rome. This was not for obeying the Roman rulers. It is how Paul lived his own life that causes some theologians to wonder if Romans 13 is translated correctly or perhaps was edited for purposes not entirely Christian?

Both Jesus of Nazareth and the Apostle Paul were very big on using our God given common sense. And it makes no sense at all that a Christian would carry out an order from a Caligula or Nero that goes against every basis of Christian conscience. And when the Church itself WAS the governing authority, must a Christian carry out the cruelties of the Inquisition or the savagery of the Crusades in order to please God? I just can't see it that way.
 
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buzuxi02

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So how come so many of those Christians were crucified as Jesus was, were killed by gladiators or lions or other wild beasts? Paul himself went to prison and, according to tradition was eventually martyred in Rome. This was not for obeying the Roman rulers. It is how Paul lived his own life that causes some theologians to wonder if Romans 13 is translated correctly or perhaps was edited for purposes not entirely Christian?
I never said one must mandatory obey a ruler even if it is King Solomon himself. And there always has been an understanding that some rulers are tyrants and need to be removed.
I'm just saying what the apostles said about rulers being put in place by God does not apply today as everyone recognizes democratically elected leaders as being placed there by man absent of any divinely understood criteria.
 
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Pedra

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The answer to the OP question is : No God does Not allow abortions. Christians are to obey God and are set apart from the world, in it and not of it. Living peacefully with the authorities does not mean committing the sins that are acceptable from an unchristian point of view. The Bible tells us that God is unchanging, He is not double-minded & is not fickle & the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict His own righteousness. God doesn't change His mind about His commandments. No born again Believer should support abortion or participate in it. It is not condoned under the pretense of obeying the authorities. That is the weakest argument.
 
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Foxfyre

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I never said one must mandatory obey a ruler even if it is King Solomon himself. And there always has been an understanding that some rulers are tyrants and need to be removed.
I'm just saying what the apostles said about rulers being put in place by God does not apply today as everyone recognizes democratically elected leaders as being placed there by man absent of any divinely understood criteria.

Thanks for clarifying. But I don't believe for a minute that God expected Christians to obey every order of a Caligula or Nero. Both were thorough deranged and evil men who did many evil things. No one will ever convince me that God put them in their positions of authority.
 
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SkyWriting

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Thanks for clarifying. But I don't believe for a minute that God expected Christians to obey every order of a Caligula or Nero. Both were thorough deranged and evil men who did many evil things. No one will ever convince me that God put them in their positions of authority.

I'm not actually not trying to convince people that God has put government on earth to accomplish His will. I'm stating the case as I've discovered it in scripture and expecting people to find the flaws in my argument for a different interpretation. So far, no one has explained what these passages really mean and why they really mean something else other than what they say.

Many object and say God's word is higher priority than any government (Evidently they feel democracy is more evil than Royalty, or Rule by the Church of England, or whichever) but they have no clear scripture to back it, so far. Give it your best people. Take them one at a time. I'm listening.


Psalm 22:28
For the kingdom is the LORD'S And He rules over the nations.

1 Chronicles 29:12
"Both riches and honor come from You, and You rule over all, and in Your hand is power and might; and it lies in Your hand to make great and to strengthen everyone.

2 Chronicles 20:6
and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You.

Psalm 66:7
He rules by His might forever; His eyes keep watch on the nations; Let not the rebellious exalt themselves.

Psalm 67:4
Let the nations be glad and sing for joy; For You will judge the peoples with uprightness And guide the nations on the earth.

Psalm 103:19
The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.

Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Proverbs 19:21
Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

Proverbs 20:24
Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

Lamentations 3:37
Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it?

Acts 17:26
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

James 4:13-15
Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that."

Romans 13:1
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Proverbs 8:15-16
"By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice. "By me princes rule, and nobles, All who judge rightly.

Daniel 2:37-38
"You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.

Daniel 4:17
"This sentence is by the decree of the angelic watchers And the decision is a command of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, And bestows it on whom He wishes And sets over it the lowliest of men."

Daniel 5:21
"He was also driven away from mankind, and his heart was made like that of beasts, and his dwelling place was with the wild donkeys He was given grass to eat like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven until he recognized that the Most High God is ruler over the realm of mankind and that He sets over it whomever He wishes.

John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

1 Timothy 2:2-3
for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

Romans 13:2-3
Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

Ezra 7:26
"Whoever will not observe the law of your God and the law of the king, let judgment be executed upon him strictly, whether for death or for banishment or for confiscation of goods or for imprisonment."

Proverbs 29:4
The king gives stability to the land by justice, But a man who takes bribes overthrows it.
 
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SkyWriting

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The NT rules of God appointed rulers were speaking of the Roman rulers. One does not have to obey any specific ruler but during those days monarchs were universally considered a divine appointment and by extensions their appointments. Paul would not use such language today. He may say to obey laws but today he would not say God has placed a politician in that position.
We vote today, it's all man made appointments, nothing of God about them.

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”
 
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Strong in Him

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I don't know if there is any point to this thread. Does the OP want to know if God allows abortions because they have a problem with abortion? If the answer is 'no, God does not allow abortion', will that lead them to campaign to have the abortion limit lowered/scrapped? Are they planning to do anything to help those who have decided to have an abortion, or to challenge those who believe that abortion is the only answer?

Or is the OP only concerned with their interpretation of a few verses on a different subject?
 
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SkyWriting

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Unsubscribing.

I don't know if there is any point to this thread. Does the OP want to know if God allows abortions because they have a problem with abortion? If the answer is 'no, God does not allow abortion', will that lead them to campaign to have the abortion limit lowered/scrapped? Are they planning to do anything to help those who have decided to have an abortion, or to challenge those who believe that abortion is the only answer?

Or is the OP only concerned with their interpretation of a few verses on a different subject?


If we are to submit to government, then God's will is local law and allows abortions.
If we are to put God's OT laws first, then PL supporters have a valid argument.
If the Old Covenant is still active, I can ignore the new one of Grace.
If we are supposed to break the laws of the land, it is significant on many topics.
 
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buzuxi02

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If we are to submit to government, then God's will is local law and allows abortions.
If we are to put God's OT laws first, then PL supporters have a valid argument.
If the Old Covenant is still active, I can ignore the new one of Grace.
If we are supposed to break the laws of the land, it is significant on many topics.
How in the world is not getting an abortion illegal? Scripture says to keep your legs closed to avoid such problems. Doesnt matter if it's on the law books or not, no one is forcing you to accept such a thing.
 
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ItIsFinished!

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Much stronger than your displeasure, at minimum.
My case include some scriptural backing.
That would be a matter of opinion.
And definitely not much stronger as you state.
 
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Justified112

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Obeying government takes precedent over the written code in scripture.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

The problem with your logic is that the government isn't performing abortions, nor is the government ordering us to get abortions. So, abortions don't apply.

Furthermore, we are only obligated to obey the government in what is right and reasonable. If the government ordered us to hand our children over to it to be wards of the state, that would be an unlawful order that we are not under any biblical mandate to obey.

We are to be good citizens and to pay our taxes and obey the government where it is right and reasonable to do so. Paul's admonition in Rom. 13 does not mean that we are to obey EVERYTHING the government tells us to do. If the government tells us to commit sin, we are not obligated to the government to violate Scripture. The Bible nowhere states that we are obligated to the government at the expense of Scripture.
 
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Justified112

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I didn't find any limitations. Jesus obeyed Government and was crucified by them.
I'd say that is your natural limit, being crucified by the law.

Yet Paul violate the law of the empire by calling Jesus Lord. Jesus asserted His own Lordship in the Gospels. But at that time there was only one "lord" and it was Caesar. To give allegiance to a different lord was treason against the law of the land and against Caesar.

So, both Jesus and Paul openly defied the law. That pretty torpedoes your assertion about our obligation to the government over God.
 
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Justified112

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I'm no medical law expert, but if a pregnancy is killing the mother and the diagnosis is confirmed, I would wonder if the law required saving the mother, or did not require it and letting her die. I really don't know which.
Except that is not abortion. If a baby is conceived in the fallopian tubes (ecleptic pregnancy), which is deadly to the mother, the tubes can be removed thus ending the pregnancy. but that is not an abortion.
 
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Justified112

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My stand is that The Fathers will is carried out by local government decree.
See below.



The passages all say that obedience to local government is top priority
because local government law is the Fathers will for us.

Jesus explained this and then lived it, throughout his trial, even to death.
Thank the Lord for His death!

Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”
No, they don't say it is the top priority. You are assigning that value to them. Jesus lived in submission to the governing powers because He had a supreme agenda to be put to death by them. You cannot apply that to us. We are not to be rebels, but neither are we obligated to violate God's laws when the government tells us to. Nowhere in the Bible are God's laws subservient to human governance.

You are employing very sloppy hermeneutics.
 
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Strong in Him

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If we are to submit to government, then God's will is local law and allows abortions.

So your position is that we have to submit to local government - however corrupt or unChristian - and if they allow abortion, we have to too?
I disagree with that - and in any case, the title of your thread is "Does GOD allow abortion"?

But if that's what you believe, then it's between you and him.
 
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SkyWriting

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SkyWriting

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No, they don't say it is the top priority. You are assigning that value to them. Jesus lived in submission to the governing powers because He had a supreme agenda to be put to death by them. You cannot apply that to us. We are not to be rebels, but neither are we obligated to violate God's laws when the government tells us to. Nowhere in the Bible are God's laws subservient to human governance.

Jesus submitted his life to local government. Saying God's laws are higher standing than Jesus, is very sloppy hermeneutics.

John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
 
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Justified112

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Jesus submitted to local government. Saying God's laws are higher standing than Jesus is incorrect.

John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
Yes, Jesus did. But keep in mind that there was a greater purpose in doing that. Jesus was not doing it because local government overrules the governance of God. He allowed the governing power to put Him on the cross to fulfill the plan of redemption.

That, in no way, means that we are obey human government over God and the Scriptures. It appears to me that you are trying to make that case as an excuse for promoting abortion, something that is abhorrent and violates the Word of God.
 
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