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disciple Clint

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Hi I’ve been researching Calvinism, Arminianism etc the last while. A lot of studious christians seem to lean towards Calvinism. If Calvinism is true does that mean I could potentially be unsavable. No matter how hard I try I can’t be saved if I weren’t one of the elect?
Well if you think it does then accept Arminianism
 
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ldonjohn

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I’ve never felt saved. So when people say only the elect can be saved then it could possibly make you wonder.

I have been saved for over 40 years, and I don't "feel" saved. I don't know if the word "feel" is the right word to use, but I do have an enormous sense of relief knowing that the penalty for my sin was paid "in full" when Jesus died on the cross.

Also, God chose or picked me for salvation because I chose to believe His Word. John 3:16 does say "whosoever believieth..." and Jesus said in John 6:37 that He will not turn away anyone who comes to Him.

Regards,
John
 
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Cormack

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Hi I’ve been researching Calvinism, Arminianism etc the last while. A lot of studious christians seem to lean towards Calvinism. If Calvinism is true does that mean I could potentially be unsavable. No matter how hard I try I can’t be saved if I weren’t one of the elect?

Hey Andrew, this topic ended very abruptly, but to answer your question in a straightforward manner, yes.

Yes if Calvinism were true then those not elected to salvation are totally and utterly “unsavable.”
Under 5 point Calvinism Jesus didn’t die for their sins, they have no saviour and God doesn’t want those people in eternity with him.

Thankfully, in my well studied opinion, Calvinism is untrue, unbiblical and logically absurd.

If you haven’t decided on where you stand regarding Calvinism, feel free to PM me or check out some of my earlier conversations with Calvinists on CF, they’re very informative.

Some harmful side effects of free will.

Calvinist limited love for mankind
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Hi I’ve been researching Calvinism, Arminianism etc the last while.






A lot of studious christians seem to lean towards Calvinism. If Calvinism is true does that mean I could potentially be unsavable. No matter how hard I try I can’t be saved if I weren’t one of the elect?

Makes for a good study. If you are seeking Christ, then it appears that you are on the right road.
M
 
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Cormack

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Makes for a good study. If you are seeking Christ, then it appears that you are on the right road.
M

What would be your direct answer to the question?

If Calvinism were true, and if @Andrew98 were not one of the specially elected ones, is he unsavable?
 
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Cormack

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I mean that Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

That’s a very assumptive thing to write if 5 point Calvinism were true, for example, if the L of limited atonement were correct, nobody could write with 100% confidence “Christ died for me.They wouldn’t know that, nor could they know that on this side of heaven.

Other Christian perspectives (perspectives that defend some variety of universal extent in the atonement) could boldly write “Jesus died for my sins,” but 5 point Calvinists can’t.

The OP isn’t worded absolutely perfectly, but the bare bones of the question are reasonable and deserve to be considered in light of the claims of Calvinism.

Under 5 point Calvinism the lost have no saviour, they’re without an atoning sacrifice and are eternally lost without one so much as being offered.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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@Andrew98[/USER] were not one of the specially elected ones, is he unsavable?

The unsaved will think that thoughts of
God are foolishness.
Born Again ones will know different.
REPENT OFTEN
M
 
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Cormack

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This answers a lot of questions.
M

The direct answer is an hour long video?

The unsaved will think that thoughts of
God to be foolishness.
Born Again ones will know different.
M

Would he be unsavable? I don’t mind elaborating afterwards, but a simple yes or no would be great help to begin with.
 
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Albion

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Other Christian perspectives (perspectives that defend some variety of universal extent in the atonement) could boldly write “Jesus died for my sins,” but 5 point Calvinists can’t.
But that doesn't mean they have not been redeemed, just that they cannot say they know for sure that they have been saved, which is exactly the same position that Christians who belong to free will churches are in.
 
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Cormack

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But that doesn't mean they have not been redeemed, just that they cannot say they know for sure that they have been saved, which is exactly the same position that Christians who belong to free will churches are in.

The problem isn’t who’s going to ultimately be saved though, or even who’s presently saved, that’s not the 5 point Calvinists unique problem, doubt about how ultimate salvation shakes out is in everybody’s theology.

However, the unique issue for 5 pointers is that they don’t know if any sacrificial blood was ever shed upon their behalf. Limited atonement precludes them ever knowing.

People who defend a universal extent (not universal application) of the atonement don’t have that problem. They can say Jesus died for me without any theological controversy or contradiction there.
 
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Albion

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The problem isn’t who’s going to ultimately be saved though, that’s not the 5 point Calvinists unique problem, that’s an everybody’s theology. However, the unique issue for 5 pointers is that they don’t know if any sacrificial blood was ever shed upon their behalf. Limited atonement precludes them ever knowing.
Okay, but neither do freewill Christians, who number more than five point Calvinists, ever know (assuming that they actually understand and accept their own churches' theology). .

People who defend a universal extent (not universal application) of the atonement don’t have that problem.
Sure they do. There's no guarantee that they will meet God's standards at the moment of death. There is, as a matter of fact, almost no guidance coming from their churches on that subject, so most just hope for the best.
 
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Clare73

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I mean that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. So, instead of asking if you were not picked, ask Jesus what He wants to do with you. And thank Him. And trust Him.
All right knowledge of God, including faith, is born of obedience to God.

Lk 7:17: "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out if my teaching comes from God. . ."

It's not: we know, and so we obey; it's we obey, and so we know.
Jesus did not suffer and die like that, so you would think about if you weren't picked, but so you appreciate and love and honor Him for coming to this earth in order to reach us and share with us and save us from our sins so we can spend eternity with God and one another as His family.

And this is possible with God who is able to change us to how He has us loving, including caring about others as well as we care about our own selves.

This is what needs to have our attention.

And so, we can be asking, "What do You want to do with me?"

And if we get into a major trouble, do this > instead of trying to get God to answer to us, answer to God >

"What do You want me to do?"

And trust Him.
 
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Cormack

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Okay, but neither do freewill Christians,

Freewill Christians who believe in the universality of the extent of the atonement know that Jesus died for them, that doesn’t mean they’ve claimed by faith the free gift of eternal life that’s been purchased for them by Christ’s atoning sacrifice.

They know Christ’s blood is intended for their remission of sins, but whether or not the blood has been applied to their doorpost, that’s another story. Nevertheless, the intent is for everyone to partake of the saving sacrifice, and because the intent is universal, so too is the sacrifice and the gift universally offered.

They know the extent is over their lives and their sins, but knowing the application is upon them is different. They can believe in the extent of Christ’s work 100%.

5 point Calvinists don’t know if the extent is over their lives and their sins, because the extent is Limited. They also don’t know if the blood is applied as a remission for their sins. They can’t believe in the extent since Jesus may not have died for them.

Under Calvinism the intended recipients of Christ’s sacrifice are limited by design, the intent and the extent are limited.
 
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Cormack

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Sure they do. There's no guarantee that they will meet God's standards at the moment of death. There is, as a matter of fact, almost no guidance coming from their churches on that subject, so most just hope for the best.

Just reading your edit now, if you read #57 you’ll notice that you’re confusing my point which is to do with the extent of the atoning work with whether or not believers know they’re ultimately under the application of Christ’s saving sacrifice.

The intent, extent and application are 3 different (although interrelated) subjects.

Freewill theists can say “Jesus died for my sins” because they believe in a universal extent.

5 point Calvinists can’t say “Jesus died for my sins” because they have no idea who the sacrificial offering has been extended to.

It’s not about ultimate destiny, rather it’s about for whom Jesus died, if you say “He died for everyone without exception” then you believe in a universal extent to the atonement and can say Jesus died for you.

But if you reply “We only know he died for the elect, and we don’t know who the elect are,” then you believe in a limited atonement and can’t say if you’re a recipient of that great sacrifice.

That’s not me trying to disavow anybody’s salvation, I’m only explaining that 5 point Calvinists (because of their philosophical commitments) can’t say Jesus died for them while being consistent with the L of the tulip.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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The direct answer is an hour long video?






Would he be unsavable? I don’t mind elaborating afterwards, but a simple yes or no would be great help to begin with.

One of the best that my wife and I have ever seen.
Actually, three parts in total.
Seen all a few times.
Bought it originally.
Money well spent.
M
 
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Mountainmanbob

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There's no guarantee that they will meet God's standards at the moment of death.



There is, as a matter of fact, almost no guidance coming from their churches on that subject, so most just hope for the best.
All men fall short.
Saved by good works alright
the good works of Christ Alone.
M
 
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