Does bipolar affect your ability to think rationally?

[trustinhim83]

Hey Romen, Hope your feeling better today. I'm just catching up on threads at this forum. I totally understand what you're saying about your childhood, and can really relate. Teen years were rough for me as well, and I think it is especially rougher if you didn't know you were very likely Bipolar back then as well.

My parents divorced when I was 13, and my dad moved off to live with family because he was really not well, and couldn't even work. My mom left my dad because his Bipolar just got so bad. He was put in a hospital, was suicidal a lot, and he wouldn't stay on treatment. She says she "just couldn't take it anymore". Well, so she left and took me with her, and got stuck with just a child with Bipolar instead (didn't have a diagnosis back then either). We would fight so bad. I guess I made her hate me so much, that she would literally tell me to pack up my things and just leave. Even though I had know where else to go. I remember getting so mad, and going in to fits of rage. I would throw plates, chairs, break things etc. Luckily I've gotten the throwing things under control as an adult. I learned my lesson when I through a glass vase at my stepfather during a manic fit in my early 20's, and ended up getting arrested for assault. I felt that he deserved it, and still think he pushed me to that point. However, know now that the right thing to do is try to walk away and calm yourself before doing something you'll regret. Which is close to impossible without the use of medication I think, when you are manic. This all happened right after I had gotten off some meds, and was going through withdrawal.

It is so weird now, to look back on some of these things though. Because there are so many things that have happened in my life, that I said, or that I've done, that aren't who I am in my heart. These things don't line up with what I believe to be right. That is what makes living with this disorder so hard. You then begin to beat yourself up over the "bad" things you've done or said. Resulting in very low self esteem. Which can trigger a depressive episode, well does in me anyways. I know this is just one thing that triggers depression for me. Just feeling the weight of guilt, or questioning myself- did I do or say the wrong thing? Did I come across too overbearing?

I can also just slip into a depression, out of know where. It sometimes seems that nothing has caused it necessarily, and what will begin to coincide with that is the negative thoughts. I found that trying to catch those thoughts, and look at them objectively. Really analyzing the thoughts, and thinking of many different scenarios that can in all reality be true...that helps me a lot as well. My therapist has worked with me a lot on that. Of course....the scriptures help as well. The scriptures that really help me are ones on forgiveness.

 

[AnthonyMichaelPraisesGod]

Hi Romen33,

I find that i can't think rationally too - I think it it is part of the Bipolar disorder. I get these ideas that make perfect sense to me like I'm gonna leave home and move to another country on my own, or i am going to become a brain surgeon or something equally as irrational. At the time of these thoughts i really believe they are possible and i start researching in to them etc. I get very excited and charged about the idea.

Anyway i just wanted you to know that you are not alone
If you need to talk you can always pm me
N

yes, this is just how i feel. trumped up and convinced of some great destiny and then later it crashes down and then i lay around not eating and freaking out, thinking that my destruction is eminent... i believe that i might be schizoaffective and one of the most frustrating things is forgetting things that i had seemed to so heartily learn. anyway, i just empathize because before i got saved i had thought that i was going to be the next van gogh but now i have lost all desire and drive to do anything artistic. i havent been saved for very long but i already think the Lord is making very good strides in pointing me in the right direction. now i am just trying to get over the crippling fear.

 

[quietpraiyze]

yes, this is just how i feel. trumped up and convinced of some great destiny and then later it crashes down and then i lay around not eating and freaking out, thinking that my destruction is eminent... i believe that i might be schizoaffective and one of the most frustrating things is forgetting things that i had seemed to so heartily learn. anyway, i just empathize because before i got saved i had thought that i was going to be the next van gogh but now i have lost all desire and drive to do anything artistic. i havent been saved for very long but i already think the Lord is making very good strides in pointing me in the right direction. now i am just trying to get over the crippling fear.

What you said is making me laugh and bringing back some memories! I had this ideal (one of many) for a particular product. I had figured out my target population and how it could be distributed. It was going to take people by storm. I could just see myself on Good Morning America & the Today Show. I was going to be RICH beyond measure. And then I told a friend. Her response? TAKE YOUR MEDS! Well that was the end of that, but every now and then I think it could happen and who knows? I'm a very creative person and moreso right before the crash and burn. :o

 

[quietpraiyze]

I just find it hard because people don't seem to understand no matter how much I try and explain it to them, they just become more critical and upset.
In my old church I found that I got little or no support, they were very hard line and would tell me I was in sin and just needed to repent, they would even quote scriptures to me and tell me that I was hurting God with my sin. I found no love there unfortunately, I expected christians should love one another. They would say that they did those things out of love to help you see your sin and repent but it just made me feel worse. They taught that they were the only true church and all others were false so by casting me out that means I'm going to hell according to their teaching. So according to them even IF I go to another church I'm going to hell. I started going to that church when I was very young and impressionable and was there many years so my minds finds it very hard to shake or deny that what I was taught there is not true.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I went through this on a grand scale. One of the things I've learned in being bipolar is that God can use us any way He wants to. Yes we're suffering and our hearts are made manifest. It is what it is but I found out that my heart wasn't the only one being manifest. The hearts of those around me were being made known as well. It was very telling from the pulpit to the pew.

If a fellowship is what you desire then I stand in faith with you for that.

 

[AnthonyMichaelPraisesGod]

What you said is making me laugh and bringing back some memories! I had this ideal (one of many) for a particular product. I had figured out my target population and how it could be distributed. It was going to take people by storm. I could just see myself on Good Morning America & the Today Show. I was going to be RICH beyond measure. And then I told a friend. Her response? TAKE YOUR MEDS! Well that was the end of that, but every now and then I think it could happen and who knows? I'm a very creative person and moreso right before the crash and burn. :o

the cycling is what gets me... i dont think i am crazy most of the time but then things shift and loop around... its all just very crazy. thank the Lord we live in this time and not one in which they would have cut out my tongue or locked me in a cell........

 

[quietpraiyze]

the cycling is what gets me... i dont think i am crazy most of the time but then things shift and loop around... its all just very crazy. thank the Lord we live in this time and not one in which they would have cut out my tongue or locked me in a cell........

I understand. I'm 51 and I'm having a whole new experience at this age. I used to have better stability but now I'm in some kinda phase where I don't know what's what. Yes we do live in a better time, I just wish some who say they're Christians would be a real expression of Christ. In some circles they're still calling us possessed or not saved at all. I'm just really glad that Jesus loves us and I'm grateful for the brothers and sisters who do get "it". They are precious.

 

[trustinhim83]

Can relate to this as well. There are times when I get these grand ideas, and I get all hyped abt them. Business ideas, hobby ideas, etc. I'll research for days, and become obsessed with the idea. Even losing sleep about it. It usually seems I am the only one stoked about the idea. I thought I was brilliant...but I guess I was just Bipolar haha!
Also, on the note of moving off to some country. I did get this idea once, and actually followed through with it! It was a predominantly Muslem country as well. Let me just say....that didn't go too well for me. All came crashing down not too long after the move, and not too long after that found myself on a plane back home with not a penny in my wallet. It's all a bit of a haze now...and sometimes I still can't believe that it happened. I wonder if it would have ever happened had I been taking meds at the time.

 

[bornagain1984]

Absolutely yes it does

 

[Loven God]

trustinhim83, who knows what would of happened if you you were taking meds .Some times it helps with meds and other times it don't it can be a hit or miss . All I know with out my meds it would be a lot worse then what it is . I still get grand ideals of what I can do but with my meds they are more short lived .
I have family members that feel I don't need the meds but they live out of state and have no ideal what I go through , they just don't understand , all they see are side effects and I see being more stable .
With out my meds I would probly be trying to do brain surgery with a plastic knife . I know that alot of people are against meds but when you need them you need them .
All I know is they help me stay leave headed when I start to think I can do anything and keep me from doing stupid things when I am manic . I know with out then I would not be here now . So if I have to but up with some side effects to stay alive then it is worth it .

 

[trustinhim83]

Loven God, I agree with you. I am a person who has always turned first to holistic remedies for almost everything. I work in an industry that is primarily built off of this notion, although we do use some more medical based treatments as well at times. I grew up with a mother who would not even allow me to get shots. My father attended the seminary, and used to be a preacher for a short time growing up- he was later diagnosed with severe Bipolar Disorder, which he probably had lived with for years already. My family, and my dad, did not believe in meds either. My dad also sort of carried the idea that it's "all in your head" or some kinda of "hokus pokus" crap. He just doesn't believe in the idea of being mentally ill. He at one point even had to be institutionalized, and had all his inherited guns taken because he was a suicide risk. He took meds for awhile, but never stayed on them. To this day he still doesn't own up to the notion that he is mentally ill even when severely manic, or severely depressed. He believes there is nothing wrong with him, and so will not take any meds. There surely is something wrong though, and as a daughter who has grown up around a parent who is mentally ill I can say this: I cried myself to sleep way too many nights wondering if my dad was going to kill himself because I saw that he was just that depressed. Wishing my dad could lead a life not living in isolation from others. I've watched my "Christian" former preacher father become a raging alcoholic, nearly drinking himself to death while trying to self medicate. Luckily has been sober for several years now. I've watched my dad openly post grotesque comments while talking to apparent strippers on social media websites, whilst in a manic episode, as if know one else can see. meanwhile everyone sees it, and it's an embarrassment because it isn't who he is. The list goes on an on in regards to my dads illness, and what life is like while not getting treatment. Meanwhile, his sister ( my aunt), gets medication for her Bipolar disorder, and it has helped her tremendously....although, it took her finally having to go to the hospital during a severe manic episode to do so. He won't listen to her either though.
We all believe in the power of prayer, but I am beginning to have more faith in the tools of modern medicine as well. I feel that we are fortunate to have this option. I don't want my kids to go through what I have, or my husband to deal with some of the things my mom dealt with, before she left my dad. To this day I still wish my dad would get help for his illness. My dad just went to the hospital the other night because he has a heart condition, and he thought he was having a heart attack. He had to stay for two days, and they ran all these tests only to find out that he did not have a heart attack. What he described to me was going on sounded exactly like what I've experienced during a panic attack. However, he still will not recognize that could have been the cause of his symptoms, even after all tests run show there is nothing else wrong.
I am telling this story about my dad because it fully explains why I do believe that people with Bipolar Disorder who are unable to cope with the illness by natural means, and prayer, should consider using modern medicine. I am not going to pray for God to change the way he made me. I accept that God made me this way, and that I have Bipolar Disorder. It is just my genetics. I don't think God made a mistake when he created me, and so I am not going to ask God to make me someone else. What I feel ok with praying for is for God to help me to find peace in using the best tools necessary to live a healthy life in the body that he gave me, and for me to make healthy choices as to take care of myself. I also thank God for making me who I am. I hope that others can relate to this, or get something out of my story.

 

[trustinhim83]

...and yes, I know I am a bit hypomanic right now, going on and on. It is something I'm in the process of dealing with, but thanks to anyone who is actually reading my long essays I'm writing at times haha.

 

[Loven God]

Prayer first and then my meds is how I make it through my days . I belive God gave us doctors amd meds to helps us not hurt us . But it is up to us to use the meds right and not abuse them . When we put God first and then add the others things He has given us to stay healthly as possible then we can feel blessed by all that God has given us to use . Meds are not evil but they are made bad when they are missed used for other then there purpose .

 

[If Not For Grace]

there are illnesses and then there are personalities on top of it-I know highly functionally bi-polar people and some who don't act like they have the sense God gave geese-the same as my "normal" or non BP friends....

 

[Alienated]

It seems that for the past 6 years since I was diagnosed bipolar my ability to think rationally has diminished more and more. I know a person who is also bipolar and he doesn't have this problem. People get upset with me constantly, some say I lack common sense and it irritates them. I do or say things that make perfect sense to me and later found out that it was the wrong thing to say or do then people get upset with me. I have told my Psychiatrist this and he says nothing can be done. He tried changing my meds until it got a little better and decided to settle with the current results he doesn't think it will get any better. My hands also shake when I try to do things that require a lot of dexterity, my co-worker saw this and told me it might be a sign of early Parkinsons disease. Worried I went to see my doctor and he believes its due to the meds and nothing can be done but if it gets worse he'll run some tests. Does anyone else go through this and if so what else do you suggest can be done?
Oh one more thing I had a seizure caused by antidepressant just prior to being diagnosed bipolar, could it be I suffer brain damage? They did a catscan back then and said everything looked ok at the time but I first noticed it shortly after that.

The shaking of your hands can be a common side effect of many meds called
Tardive dyskinesia and it can become permanate. I got it from a anti psychotic med called haldol, and Doc put me on propranolol. It took God removing me off all my meds and a year for it to go away.

There are exercises to get your cognitive thinking back. First I rewrote the dictionary in my own words and learned Chemistry. I changed the way I think. I had brain damage and had to rewire my brain, by changing the neuro-thought pathways. It bypasses the damaged areas, like rerouting a river. It's called cognitive therapy.

The biggest obstacle that will really help, is getting complete control of your emotions. Let your thoughts control emotion, NOT, emotion control thoughts.

 

[trustinhim83]

There are exercises to get your cognitive thinking back. First I rewrote the dictionary in my own words and learned Chemistry. I changed the way I think. I had brain damage and had to rewire my brain, by changing the neuro-thought pathways. It bypasses the damaged areas, like rerouting a river. It's called cognitive therapy.

The biggest obstacle that will really help, is getting complete control of your emotions. Let your thoughts control emotion, NOT, emotion control thoughts.

I think that's good advice. I'm glad this, alone, is working for you. I have been in CBT combined with EMDR therapy for abt. 7 months now. This alone did not work for me, although did help to some extent. So I've had to start a medication in conjunction with it. Now the therapy is moving along MUCH more productively, and I do think it is a very important component of helping me cope with the illness. Overall, the therapy has made a big impact on my thinking. I find myself not believing irrational thoughts as frequently, and really stopping to take an objective look. Because believing in that thought can then lead to an negative emotion, and before you know it you are really down.

 

[redblue22]

People have tried to tell me that bipolar makes thinking harder. I don't really buy it. If anything, I find that the mentally ill do have their obvious problems, but so often they are much more wise and insightful than those who do not struggle. The best example is how people will give advice to those with bipolar and not even know what it is! I'm sorry, nonmental people are not somehow more rational.

Again, the mentally ill do have mental problems. But the mentally ill also have gifts. And they learn things having gone through hell, and in spite of going through hell.

Take mania for example in this section. On the one hand, one misses obvious social order. On the other hand, the world has sped up and we do pull off things that other people do not. It is madness and genius at the same time,

I get ticked when someone says I don't have common sense. Am I stupid? No. My parents will say that. Well, what is common sense? It is the common collected wisdom passed on from parents to survive and succeed in the world around. Well, my parents sucked. So, I learned some common sense on how to survive my developmental years that isn't entirely applicable to the average world.

I might be a bit slower in thinking on my feet, but I also know to ask questions. People get angry at questions. Well, just because they like to go through life oblivious to the fact that they are in the dark--pretending like they know--does not make me stupid. Mental illness is one thing. But it does not make me bad, stupid, ugly, lying, evil, faithless, godless, worthless, or any of the other really stupid things that nonmental people say. If anything, I would look to people who struggle to succeed in these things--even if it means they are poor and cannot find a job or succeed in the usual ways. When I worked with the mentally ill at the homeless shelter I was often impressed at how mature their faith in God was above the middle class that I grew up with.

Med side effects suck. Some antipsychotics do cause parkinson's like side effects in some people because it messed with dopamine. I'm one. I personally hate akathisia the most. I take another old school drug to stop all that garbage. (cogentin, my friend)

You might think I'm out of my mind for saying that I believe we are gifted in spite of our struggles. Yes, there are people who are seriously damaged by their meds. Yes, some people are also suffering from the effects of untreated trauma and mental illness. And yes, some people struggle from direct cognitive impairment, learning disorders, etc. But there are people who live in mental illness hell who also make it through medical school, graduate psychology, seminary, mathematics, etc. (as if those were some sign of cognitive abilities?) We all have gifts. It might be creativity or art or relationships or understanding or love. And even the nonmental ill struggle with cognitive problems, realtionships, and common issues. "Oh, I must pay 3 times the price to have a better label!" Just because someone does not struggle with mental illness does not make them somehow more rational or right.

I think the best example is when someone with mental illness has the insight and creativity to come up with an original idea and it just ticks off the guy who doesn't have mental illness but so wanted to discover it himself.

 

[trustinhim83]

Not disputing the above statement, good points!
It is believed that Abe Lincoln likely had Bipolar Disorder. Many very successful, brilliant, and worthy of mention names wear the label. It isn't anything to be ashamed of. It's just the way some people are born.
I do think a lot of people with the illness benefit from therapy though. It's not that the people with the illness have a "harder" time thinking, but when we begin to be tortured by our own thoughts....thoughts that have no grounds in any logical rational, ya know like 1+1=2 not 1+1=5, then a form of therapy can help.
I'm reading a book now that's been recommended on this forum, and also a therapist I went to before I believe had mentioned it. It's called "Feeling Good"...it's a CBT self help book. I'm really enjoying the read! It really helps you to sort through all you're "brilliant" thoughts.

 

[redblue22]

Feeling Good is a good book. (pun intended) Unfortunately many cognitive therapists think it is the cure-all answer and don't admit its limitations, problems, or the benefits of other psych techniques. But I think it is worth learning along with anything else you can learn. (Besides, they are trying to help, not teach a course on philosophy of psych theories.) Just because someone is not struggling with mental illness does not mean they don't struggle with thinking. We have normal problems too that CBT can be used for. Not everything is at the door of bipolar. But I think you are right, if you can get your foot in the door of your own mind's tricks, then the kind of reflections CBT teaches can be helpful. But I would also caution agreeing with everything they are saying. Just because I have problems doesn't mean I'm checking my mind at the door for the psychs to take over. But then that is the whole point of psych techniques. We still have to think for ourselves regardless of the equipment. So, it is ok to question the techniques and psych beliefs themselves. The people writing the books certainly do.

Sometimes I struggle with the fact that generally the nonmental ill actually have trouble understanding my world and I have trouble explaining it to them. That lack of being understood makes me wonder if I'm just that more out of touch with reality. I have found a lot of ways to explain things though. And the fact that sometimes I'm in a room and I'm the only one getting some philosophical theory the prof is lecturing on makes me think the other students struggle with thinking too.

I tend to think of the life of the mind on a scale or degrees. We are NOT the sane and the insane. And I'm not always manic or depressed. I'm not always clear thinking. The nonmental ill are not in direct access with the real world either. So, they have one foot in my mental illness world as well. It is just that sometimes I have both feet in and I go for a swim. Sometimes they go for a swim too. That many of us are willing to admit we are in the dark actually puts us ahead of most of the nonmental ill who are unwilling to admit they are in the dark. I would rather be mentally ill and face my emotions than be nonmentally ill and stuff down emotions with success and be scared of books on CBT. Better a candle in the dark than to pretend I can see with my eyes closed.

But they understand--they just need us mentally ill people to explain it to them the ever so mentally healthy. (smirk) Take a simple example. If you have a bad toothache, you will have trouble thinking. A bad toothache makes it hard to listen or be there for anyone if you are therapist, pastor, dentist, or anyone. It is a physical problem causing mental distress. A toothache makes it hard for you to think, succeed, or understand the world around. And untreated, the problems can increase.

*I did think of a humorous line of logic. If someone with mental illness says I'm wrong, then they believe they are right. But if they believe they are right, then they believe they are thinking clearer. Which means they actually agree with me. If someone who is not mentally ill says I'm wrong, then they believe they are right. That means they believe they are thinking clear. But then that means they believe they understand what mental illness is like, which means mental illness is clear. And by disagreeing they are admitting that they believe I am thinking clear to understand their disagreement. So, they agree with me too. So, since I'm right, I'm obviously more clear than everyone and thus not mentally ill.

And I think I'll shut off the lights because this room is so well lit.

 

[Alienated]

So Redblue 22 you mentioned cognitive therapy, and it having limitations. And that your thinking is slowed up. Medication side effects and trouble explaining your mental illness to others. You see I have been diagnosed over the years with many things, but was refused treatment because it didn't exist back then. I was thrown out of schools, abused, beaten, and abandoned by my own family. Wasn't offered help till 15 years ago, and that was even more frustrating, they were crazier than me !!

My question is : Other than any treatments, medications, talk therapy, have you found anything that brings you comfort on your own ? Using your disability as a special ability ? You see there is a thin line between nut's and genius ! If you think differently than others, can you use that as a advantage ?

I was a constant perfectionist and had OCD for years, so I started my own painting company. People loved my work, and were always satisfied because I used my quirks as a advantage. In 26 years I only had 2 dissatisfied customers, because they WERE crazier than me. I always worked alone, and was happy.

My point is that doctors seem to make things worse, different is not dysfunctional. And now that I'm retired, I love studying, and using want I have learned and know to help others. And I am happy now, who is the one really that had the problems ?

 

[redblue22]

Alienated, all good thoughts.

After high school, I spent the last 20 years hiding out in universities. (yes, I'm almost 39) I would say the problem understanding mental illness is theirs--not mine in being able to explain. Thinking speeds up and slows down depending on how I am doing and depends on the topic. I don't know how depression is a gift while in it. not sure what to do with that or abuse.

You mentioned haldol. So treatment exists. It was just bad. I would have been a zombie on thorazine. (so would you if lithium wasn't your flavor) I don't know your age, but I think you probably escaped damage of the times and crazy theories and drugs. Like you, I spent most of life not receiving treatment. Looking at the history of mental health, I'm glad I wasn't treated. (yes yes, I'm young, hopefully no prejudices there, but mental health has a really scary history of not knowing what the heck to do.)

Your question is interesting. I wouldn't say any one thing actually helps. But I tie them all together and I have a makeshift lifeboat. Ok, what did I mention. Drugs. Talking to therapists. Talking to other people with similar problems. Reading books. I'm a pretty big fan of making fun of all this and laughing at stuff I deal with. Prayer, God, bible. I took just about every class I could find on every topic: did a lot of art, communication, language, linguistics, etc. Loved doing art! I have a few different philosophy degrees, went to seminary, also a degree in clinical mental health counseling--which was better for me than getting my psych license at the time. Besides the obvious research in religion, I worked a lot in ethics and logic. Taught some unusual courses at the university. Was a therapist myself for a time. (which I get a laugh about because the laws were rewritten so they couldn't exclude the mentally ill anymore) Can you tell I have some pride here? I have a list of dreams I follow as part of what I somewhere else called "suicide lifestyle." I work when I can, where I can. Low stress for my own health.

I totally believe in using the gift aspects of the curse. I think madness is required to pull off genius. The trick is not becomnig too mad or too sane. OCD can turn into depth and memory. Mood disorders like bipolar can inspire creativity and experience things most people hide from and never do. Thought disorders like schizophrenia certainly get you to thinking about the world different. That doesn't make those problems not real. They still cause problems--to different degrees, different times, and with different people. There is no reason not to get some insight. No point in me being actually living in a world of hallucinations and delusions if I can get a grip on it. And we are all gifted. It might not be some thinking cognitive thing, but -- hey, I'm repeating myself I think. I think the greatest thing in life has been all the friends who have loved me--and I loved them. People knew full well stuff about me, accepted me, and we had deeper relationships. (but let's not pretend, there are the real jerks who I had words for) Sometimes I still hold a kind of creative advisory role for some people. They take whatever they think makes sense. But I don't want to be flown to some government economics theory lecture to be found out later that I suffer from madness. (that was the most recent offer I had)

Certainly I have a history of social and relationship and family problems and some abusive stuff I haven't dealt with yet. And counselors do not like me. (I sooooo do not trust them) Why do you think I decided to study psychology for myself? I don't buy one theory. I read them all and decide what I believe. Churches certainly never welcomed me. But I'm not walking away from God just because those people push me out. So, I went to seminary. Studied a million things. And sometime being a little crazy can make you brave enough to do anything--including ask any girl out or fly through town on a motorcycle. Or stand up to some roid-rager--who realizes that in a bar fight the crazy are at the top of the food chain. So, yes, there are lots of gifts there. I think a thread on that would be cool. I've been waiting to make it because I wanted to see what happened with the other threads.

But there are dark times too. And some people do not go through that mentally. I can be there for others sometimes because I've been made into the hamburger of life. But they really don't know what it is like to be there. I have scars, and parts inside of me need assistance like a bleeding child. But all people have their own hell too--like if their daughter dies, or they get sexually abused, or cancer, or whatever. So, I've met a lot of wonderful christians who are recovering addicts, homeless, mentally ill, and so on. I'm glad to be out of some of my own addictions. I have great appreciation for art and creative stuff. But I also know what it is like to want to end it all. And I know some people don't see the gift and are in real darkness. I'm sometimes there too. You can't carry on a business if you are asleep and endlessly depressed and wish to never live and I don't know what the answer there is. All the classes in the world don't change that. I'm blessed because things are not the same all the time for me. And I find that having other mental stuff can sometimes counteract things. Being suicidal and ocd and making a list of reasons not to die can kindof cancel each other out. Why? Because you can't stop making the freaking list--whether you agree with them or not. (and I think that is funny as . . . you get my point)

I don't have the answers. I think the main answer is love, acceptance, and listening to each other. You said some of that in my suicide thread. Being told I'm bad, stupid, evil, accusing me, giving advice about the bible, called ugly, whatever. Those are just like a cheerleading squad for a jumper. Sometimes I just turn to the drugs and a movie. Movies and stories are a big art form. But I avoid them most of the time because I get so hooked. But as I was thinking about things you share in various posts of yours, I think about Beautiful Mind, The Aviator, Dirty Filthy Love, and maybe a few others. Nothing quite like being in to talk to your family systems therapy professor and havnig a Howard Hughes moment where you start repeating yourself. (or the time I got mixed up and my seminary prof looks at my long nails and I say I'm living the Hugh Hefner life . . . which was hilarious, but not too far from the truth at times.)

I'm glad you could make some sense of your life. Not everyone I know did. Some check out early. Way too early. It is cool you are havnig fun. A lot of people retire and don't know what the heck to do. And you had a cool career. You made it through some stuff you shared in other forums. Now you are on to the next phase of your adventure. I think of all the stuff people say as options. Doctors included. This is my life. And no matter how mad my equipment is, I still have to be the one to make the decisions. I told my brother about how sometimes I have to take harder drugs. "If I am willing to being in the 3rd level of hell with those drugs, what do you think it is that I am escaping?"

Life has been interesting and I have a lot of great memories. I do hope for more of it. And I know the clouds will come again. Here in Michigan even the weather is bipolar. Wish I could give a better answer, but I think maybe the place to look is on the radio with love songs, hard rock, and who knows what. So, most of this was crap, and really it all boils down to things everyone can do. Like safe love trust and intimacy with people. Hey, sometimes I just have my fun cooking some soul food, drinking bloody mary, and reading a random dictionary. (I have a hobby of collecting all sorts of things. antiques and dictionaries for the longest time) Really, dictonaries can be soooo numbing and yet they appeal to the madness ocd learning side of things. I also am big on writing. There is paper everywhere.

I truly believe the most amazing things in life that people do are not the things only a few can do--but the things anyone could do, but only a few choose to.