• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Does believing Genesis is wrong make me a bad Christian?

Andre_b

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2020
512
104
44
Ottawa
✟33,857.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
The DNA is 99.3 percent identical, actually. That is what I was taught in tenth grade biology,.

Yes I know that's what they CLAIM and it's a huge lie. It's been refuted multiple times. They ignore the so called "Junk DNA". Some things in biology text books are flat out lies, especially evolution and age of the universe. Ernst Haeckel fraud was kept in text books for over 120 years.

Anomaly Recent Versions BLASTN Algorithm Nucmer LASTZ
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Andre_b

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2020
512
104
44
Ottawa
✟33,857.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
There is no reason to think any evolutionist ever claimed anything remotely similar to that.

There is only one other planet that any scientist has ever considered to possibly be formerly hospitable to life.

I know evolutionists never claimed anything similar to that. That's the point. If evolution WERE true because it's adaptation of the environment then other planets WOULD have their own different set of life based on its chemical composition. How did evolution start here? It's only chemicals becoming life via abiogenesis, this should take place elsewhere. But it does not. Hence the theory of evolution based on the environment adaptation is not 100% accurate, there are some adaptations which God set limits on. Evolution should happen elsewhere if that's how life started.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: coffee4u
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,002
2,819
Australia
✟166,475.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I’m not rejecting God . Lying about God’s creation the way creationists do, seems like blasphemy to me

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:17

It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labour, and was refreshed.”

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Job 33:6 “Behold, I belong to God like you; I too have been formed out of the clay.


So because we believe scripture we are both lying and committing blasphemy.
Good to know what you really think.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,142
22,742
US
✟1,732,532.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nobody can disprove what has been proven, obviously. Proof is everywhere that the whole world and all of nature evolved over billions of years, not less than a week. Mass extinctions including the biggest flood in world history are known to have occurred hundreds of millions of years prior to the existence of humans, especially homo sapiens - the last remaining species. I simply cannot for the life of me believe what the Bible says about the Creation and timing of the Great Flood, at least in terms of being the worst ever, is more accurate than what scientists discover. But in my heart I believe the Bible is God's Word and believe in miracles, so I don't want to feel like I am betraying Him in favor of sinners. Am I screwed up about my religion?

It is possible to accept a narrative as "truth" without accepting it as "fact."

For instance, the fictional novel "To Kill a Mockingbird" gives us much truth about life in the South in the 1930s without any of it being "fact."

Consider Genesis to be on the order of an "instructive narrative" with something to teach us about righteousness in our lives today, rather than mere history.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,002
2,819
Australia
✟166,475.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There isn't really such a thing as a fossil that is in-between species. There are fossils between genus if that's what you mean.

There are no missing links or an in-between species found because it didn't happen.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Andre_b
Upvote 0

DebbieJ

Active Member
Jun 1, 2020
266
243
25
Italy
✟29,659.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Greens
Exactly what evidence convinced you of this?

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

but it doesn't stop there.


General Relativity. But, if we do not have a basic understanding of what relativity is, then, we are going nowhere. Maybe, do a Google first?


because he is outside of time.

Precisely. Time with God occurs instantaneous because T=0. The whole history of mankind, relative to God is already finished in a twinkling of his eye. However, due to general relativity, time occurs very slowly for us.

God thought the time frame in Genesis important enough to us to not only number each day but to add 'evening and morning' to each one as well. What would be the point of doing that if each day was really millions of years? If you feel the text is talking about millions of years, what scriptural backing do you have for that interpretation?

On the first day, the earth, sun, and moon wasn't created yet. How can there be a morning and evening? Where's the sun to determine day and night?

You said "A day in Genesis is not really a literal 24hrs." You said this as a firm fact.
What are you basing that fact on?

Let say the morning sunrise is 6am and evening sunset is 6pm. How many hours have transpired?

"There was evening and there was morning, the first day".

This should be "there was evening and there was evening, the first day" if we want to believe it's 24 hours.

How do you know it started as a big bang? Do you have some scriptural backing for that?

Yes, of course.

The big bang is not actually an explosion as many of us would imagine. It's actually an "expansion of space-time". What the universe is doing is actually stretching during the big bang. I think it should be renamed as "the big stretch". Kindly google for further reading.

I forgot the verse, but search in the scriptures, "He stretched out the heavens with his hands".

If the sixth day really meant hundreds of millions of years and we know that Adam was made that day, how did he live for only 930 years?

We know that there are many homo sapiens skeletons dating hundreds of thousands of years. These are not the "Adam" yet, but a long creation process that took a very long time. Once the Adam appeared, the perfect man appeared which got to live 930 years, if not, eternal if he didn't sin.

But, with the Lord, relative to his time scale, this took only a day. But, to man, millions of years.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”
And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.


This is the stage where the sun was fully created with full brightness and heat. The creation of the sun took a long time relative to us. On the first stages, the sun was dim and not enough heat was given off. Remember, the stars were also created and it took their light to reach earth hundreds of millions of years for distant stars. For the nearest stars, it take 100,000 years for their light to reach earth.

Relative to the Lord's timescale, this took only a day.

Evolution scientists believe that took approximately six million years not hundreds.
So while these millions or only hundreds of years were going past with man evolving, none were sinning and none were dying then? Since we know that Adam's sin brought in death.

There were not the "ADAM" of Genesis. They were just a creation in progress which took a long time. Death and decay are part of creation to sustain life. Decomposing matter provides nutrients to the plants and trees. It's a cycle of life and death. It's a natural process. We have also tiny worms and insects which get stepped on by animals and die. Are they also immortal? Are plants immortal? Are bugs immortal?

When Adam was finally developed, he had immortality. When he sinned, it spread throughout his lineage. He died like the animals, plants, insects, and bacterial life.

Adam was separate and special from all creation for he was created in the Lord's image. And the Lord is immortal.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Are trees and bugs immortal? When Adam sinned, he became downgraded like the animals.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,002
2,819
Australia
✟166,475.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

General Relativity. But, if we do not have a basic understanding of what relativity is, then, we are going nowhere. Maybe, do a Google first?




Precisely. Time with God occurs instantaneous because T=0. The whole history of mankind, relative to God is already finished in a twinkling of his eye. However, due to general relativity, time occurs very slowly for us.



On the first day, the earth, sun, and moon wasn't created yet. How can there be a morning and evening? Where's the sun to determine day and night?



Let say the morning sunrise is 6am and evening sunset is 6pm. How many hours have transpired?

"There was evening and there was morning, the first day".

This should be "there was evening and there was evening, the first day" if we want to believe it's 24 hours.



Yes, of course.

The big bang is not actually an explosion as many of us would imagine. It's actually an "expansion of space-time". What the universe is doing is actually stretching during the big bang. I think it should be renamed as "the big stretch". Kindly google for further reading.

I forgot the verse, but search in the scriptures, "He stretched out the heavens with his hands".



We know that there are many homo sapiens skeletons dating hundreds of thousands of years. These are not the "Adam" yet, but a long creation process that took a very long time. Once the Adam appeared, the perfect man appeared which got to live 930 years, if not, eternal if he didn't sin.

But, with the Lord, relative to his time scale, this took only a day. But, to man, millions of years.



This is the stage where the sun was fully created with full brightness and heat. The creation of the sun took a long time relative to us. On the first stages, the sun was dim and not enough heat was given off. Remember, the stars were also created and it took their light to reach earth hundreds of millions of years for distant stars. For the nearest stars, it take 100,000 years for their light to reach earth.

Relative to the Lord's timescale, this took only a day.



There were not the "ADAM" of Genesis. They were just a creation in progress which took a long time. Death and decay are part of creation to sustain life. Decomposing matter provides nutrients to the plants and trees. It's a cycle of life and death. It's a natural process. We have also tiny worms and insects which get stepped on by animals and die. Are they also immortal? Are plants immortal? Are bugs immortal?

When Adam was finally developed, he had immortality. When he sinned, it spread throughout his lineage. He died like the animals, plants, insects, and bacterial life.

Adam was separate and special from all creation for he was created in the Lord's image. And the Lord is immortal.



Are trees and bugs immortal? When Adam sinned, he became downgraded like the animals.

General Relativity has nothing to do with the evolution of ape to man, maybe you should Google.

So your claim for the big bang being scriptural is
"He stretched out the heavens with his hands".
That is suppose to be scriptural proof of the big bang when it doesn't mention it at all, yet when the Bible clearly says 6 days, it can't possibly mean that at all?
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
Tells us again that the Bible doesn't say 6 days.


None of what you said was scriptural. You get all of that from science.
If you want to believe science over the Bible is your own business, but don't make out what you are saying is Biblical. Scripture does not support evolution and you know it doesn't.

The Jewish day begins at 6pm to 6pm. It was one evening and one morning because the next evening is counted as the next day.

As to death, plants do not have Nephesh chayyāh (soul) Biblical death only refers to sentient creatures not plants or cells.
Nor are we downgraded animals, animals do not have a spirit and are not promised salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,409
3,198
Hartford, Connecticut
✟358,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ok let me pose some questions then. I don't really expect a definitive answer to these but let's explore some possibilities or even probabilities. Now some of these may seem obvious to you as clearly you are much more learned in the sciences. However I have these inquiries:

1) Concerning the fossil record of birds is it possible that we don't find bird bones as far back as we think we should because of the small size and low density of the bone structure doesn't allow it to last as long as thicker bones from mammals or shell structures which are far more dense. In other words could they have turned to dust before fossilizing considering the small size and density of their structure. However unlikely is that possible?

2) Is it possible that tiktaalik is just an extinct species of its very own kind even if it has the similarities to other creatures that we observe? Is that possible?

I have a not watched the video yet that you posted but I will in a little bit. So if any of these are answered in that video I would not yet know.

1) Concerning the fossil record of birds is it possible that we don't find bird bones as far back as we think we should because of the small size and low density of the bone structure doesn't allow it to last as long as thicker bones from mammals or shell structures which are far more dense. In other words could they have turned to dust before fossilizing considering the small size and density of their structure. However unlikely is that possible?

Alright, so let's see what we have. Here's my response to the first thought about birds.

Regarding the question of bird bones potentially not fossilizing, I should just start by saying that I believe anything is possible. God can truly do anything. But on the question specifically, I think it is very unlikely to find Paleozoic bird fossils. As in, more unlikely than both of us winning the lottery or getting struck by lightening.

I say that for a few reasons. Consider that fossils have been being uncovered by tens or hundreds of thousands of people over the past 200 to 300 years, all around the world. We might expect that such a thing had been found by now.

The second reason being that, at this stage in the game, we are pretty confident in our succession. At some point in time, people just have to come to terms with what exists. And I know it's challenging for people to accept, but it just is what it is. This succession of fossils is confirmed and re affirmed pretty much every day by paleontologists worldwide who continue to dig up fossils, including myself.

And the thing that is also good to know, is that you, as an individual, can confirm or deny the fossil record in your own back yard. As long as you have a hammer from a toolbox, a geologic map (which can easily be found through google or cool geology apps like "rockd", and maybe some safety glasses, you have the power in your own hands to go out to any rock outcrop that is anywhere around you, and you can look at it with your own eyes if you do not believe. If you don't believe, look for yourself.

And on the question of hollow bone fossilization, lagerstatten have been found as far back as the Cambrian and the ediacaran (some 3-4 times older than birds), lagerstatten including preservation of structures of soft bodied organisms. Basically the permineralizatiom of soft bodied animals. So there isn't any logical reason to believe that bird bones might not be able to be preserved, as softer structures much older have been preserved (or permineralized) on numerous occasions.

But also, back on the succession, we have theropod dinosaurs that honestly look a lot like birds. Some dinosaurs were literally indistinguishable from birds in a lay practical sense. Protoavis, archaeopteryx, confuciusornis etc. These are theropod/bird hybrids.

Archaeopteryx for example...going in:
Somewhere around 170–140 million years ago, bird-like theropods and theropod-like birds appear in the fossil record, and somewhat prior to that going back some 200 million years ago, bird-like traits appear in reptiles in the fossil succession.

Cladistically, birds are descended from reptiles and this evolution unfolded sometime between the Triassic to Jurassic periods of the mesozoic.

Some young earthers attempt to critique the idea that birds evolved from reptiles by citing research from scientists arguing in favor of birds not descending from dinosaurs. However, suggesting that birds did not evolve from dinosaurs, is not equivelant to suggesting that birds did not evolve from mesozoic reptiles (which all paleontologists agree on). Typically in these cases, the research cited by young earthers is simply suggesting that birds descended from other dinosaur-like reptiles, but not dinosaurs themselves.

To add to the above, note the below figure:

Late theropod dinosaurs of course are feathered. Birds have genes for sharp teeth and are on rare occasions born with them.

Surprise: Chickens Can Grow Teeth

They possess similar morphological traits, such as the direction and lenghts of the bones of their hands and feet.

main-qimg-ef2572646893a05ec4f5ab7f2537d98f

Notice archaeopteryx has lenghtened forelimbs like a birds wings. The pubis transitions from front to back, then in archaeopteryx the first toe is on the back of the foot, much like a bird. And theropod dinosaurs that are derived and look much like birds have feathers and scales. Yet, archaeopteryx still has a long bony tail, much like the theropod on the left.

So, ultimately, what we see in the fossil record is the initial appearance of reptiles some 300 million years ago, but somewhere around the middle of the mesozoic, reptiles become more and more bird like. Until ultimately it becomes challenging to differentiate between birds and dinosaurs. The closer we look at the fossil record with more and more precision, the more blurred the lines become between one type of animal and another.

main-qimg-1ce773aa78fea94fab7e74df9b103220


Anchiornis - Wikipedia

So the point of the above tirade is just to point out that, not only could Paleozoic bird fossils hypothetically be preserved if they lived at earlier times, but we are confident in the succession and know why they don't exist. And we have had 2-300 years to find such and haven't and all others are also welcome to look for themselves if they don't believe.

And I would recommend review of the geologic column if any of the terms aren't making sense.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Favoredclay

Active Member
Apr 11, 2020
59
49
midwest
✟28,975.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A simple google search produced this, it's an interesting read. Please have an open mind and see if it makes sense.
Human-Chimp DNA Comparison

To be fair, here is a discussion on the side of a common ancestor:

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-simila...chimp-DNA-overstated-in-scientific-literature

Considering both arguments isn't it fair to say neither side is proved beyond a doubt? There's still a lot of genetic work to be done. I actually worked in cooperation with a genetic manipulation project in my career, with a professor from a large well known University. Now I was not doing the genetic work, but I was working with the animal side. I had first hand observation of the genetic sequencing. I soon found out the sequencing of loci and allels is a daunting task, so when your talking about DNA and RNA matches it a bit more complicated than just saying similar. One small mismatch can cause a lethal reaction. This is what causes species the inability to cross breed. I'd say it's an engineered switch, but it's often ignored by evolutionist.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,409
3,198
Hartford, Connecticut
✟358,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Alright, so let's see what we have. Here's my response to the first thought about birds.

Regarding the question of bird bones potentially not fossilizing, I should just start by saying that I believe anything is possible. God can truly do anything. But on the question specifically, I think it is very unlikely to find Paleozoic bird fossils. As in, more unlikely than both of us winning the lottery or getting struck by lightening.

I say that for a few reasons. Consider that fossils have been being uncovered by tens or hundreds of thousands of people over the past 200 to 300 years, all around the world. We might expect that such a thing had been found by now.

The second reason being that, at this stage in the game, we are pretty confident in our succession. At some point in time, people just have to come to terms with what exists. And I know it's challenging for people to accept, but it just is what it is. This succession of fossils is confirmed and re affirmed pretty much every day by paleontologists worldwide who continue to dig up fossils, including myself.

And the thing that is also good to know, is that you, as an individual, can confirm or deny the fossil record in your own back yard. As long as you have a hammer from a toolbox, a geologic map (which can easily be found through google or cool geology apps like "rockd", and maybe some safety glasses, you have the power in your own hands to go out to any rock outcrop that is anywhere around you, and you can look at it with your own eyes if you do not believe. If you don't believe, look for yourself.

And on the question of hollow bone fossilization, laagerstaaten have been found as far back as the Cambrian and the ediacaran (some 2-3 times older than birds), laagerstaaten being preservation of structures of soft bodied organisms. Basically the permineralizatiom of soft bodied animals. So there isn't any logical reason to believe that bird bones might not be able to be preserved, as softer structures much older have been preserved (or permineralized) on numerous occasions.

But also, back on the succession, we have theropod dinosaurs that honestly look a lot like birds. Some dinosaurs were literally indistinguishable from birds in a lay practical sense. Protoavis, archaeopteryx, confuciusornis etc. These are theropod/bird hybrids.

Archaeopteryx for example...going in:
Somewhere around 170–140 million years ago, bird-like theropods and theropod-like birds appear in the fossil record, and somewhat prior to that going back some 200 million years ago, bird-like traits appear in reptiles in the fossil succession.

Cladistically, birds are descended from reptiles and this evolution unfolded sometime between the Triassic to Jurassic periods of the mesozoic.

Some young earthers attempt to critique the idea that birds evolved from reptiles by citing research from scientists arguing in favor of birds not descending from dinosaurs. However, suggesting that birds did not evolve from dinosaurs, is not equivelant to suggesting that birds did not evolve from mesozoic reptiles (which all paleontologists agree on). Typically in these cases, the research cited by young earthers is simply suggesting that birds descended from other dinosaur-like reptiles, but not dinosaurs themselves.

To add to the above, note the below figure:

Late theropod dinosaurs of course are feathered. Birds have genes for sharp teeth and are on rare occasions born with them.

Surprise: Chickens Can Grow Teeth

They possess similar morphological traits, such as the direction and lenghts of the bones of their hands and feet.

main-qimg-ef2572646893a05ec4f5ab7f2537d98f

Notice archaeopteryx has lenghtened forelimbs like a birds wings. The pubis transitions from front to back, then in archaeopteryx the first toe is on the back of the foot, much like a bird. And theropod dinosaurs that are derived and look much like birds have feathers and scales. Yet, archaeopteryx still has a long bony tail, much like the theropod on the left.

So, ultimately, what we see in the fossil record is the initial appearance of reptiles some 300 million years ago, but somewhere around the middle of the mesozoic, reptiles become more and more bird like. Until ultimately it becomes challenging to differentiate between birds and dinosaurs. The closer we look at the fossil record with more and more precision, the more blurred the lines become between one type of animal and another.

main-qimg-1ce773aa78fea94fab7e74df9b103220

main-qimg-bef9ab9f2f5472d8defba375cf488cd8.webp

main-qimg-a3b7d630795fa5027b4127290e01251d.webp




So the point of the above tirade is just to point out that, not only could Paleozoic bird fossils hypothetically be preserved if they lived at earlier times, but we are confident in the succession and know why they don't exist. And we have had 2-300 years to find such and haven't and all others are also welcome to look for themselves if they don't believe.

And I would recommend review of the geologic column if any of the terms aren't making sense.

Additional pictures on birds for my prior post:
Screenshot_20200604-074327.png
Screenshot_20200604-074354.png
Screenshot_20200604-074404.png
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,409
3,198
Hartford, Connecticut
✟358,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ok let me pose some questions then. I don't really expect a definitive answer to these but let's explore some possibilities or even probabilities. Now some of these may seem obvious to you as clearly you are much more learned in the sciences. However I have these inquiries:

1) Concerning the fossil record of birds is it possible that we don't find bird bones as far back as we think we should because of the small size and low density of the bone structure doesn't allow it to last as long as thicker bones from mammals or shell structures which are far more dense. In other words could they have turned to dust before fossilizing considering the small size and density of their structure. However unlikely is that possible?

2) Is it possible that tiktaalik is just an extinct species of its very own kind even if it has the similarities to other creatures that we observe? Is that possible?

I have a not watched the video yet that you posted but I will in a little bit. So if any of these are answered in that video I would not yet know.

For the second question:

2) Is it possible that tiktaalik is just an extinct species of its very own kind even if it has the similarities to other creatures that we observe? Is that possible?

It all comes down to what best explains to succession of fossils.

I know that YouTube video I shared earlier is long, but it covers key points. Shubin and his team didn't just hop on a helicopter, fly out to the Canadian Arctic and find tiktaalik on a whim. It wasnt just pure chance. It was a prediction that tiktaalik would exist, based on the fossil succession. Science allowed them to pick a remote place on earth that had rocks of the right ages and of the right prehistoric environment (mid devonian prehistoric stream beds), post fish dominated cambrian-silurian, pre late devonian/carboniferous, and the prediction held. It was a carefully crafted plan based on not guess work, but awareness and knowledge of the history of the evolution of life.

So the question becomes, what is the most logical explanation for the succession.

But it starts with recognizing that the succession exists. Then once that is understood, then we can ponder the questions of why it exists and can look at what is most feasible.

But to give a simple and straight answer to the question, the idea that Tiktaalik is its own kind and is just there, seemingly by chance, again I'd highly unlikely. If tiktaalik truly were not related to other fossil species, we might expect Neil Shubin to have a better chance throwing a dart 100 yards in pitch blackness and landing it on a bullseye the size of a pinhead.

It all starts with recognition of the succession.
View attachment 278251
And recognition of the geologic column as well.

To understand Paleontology, you have to know the order of rocks as well.

View attachment 278252

Stephen Hawking has his book "on the shoulders of giants". Unfortunately to understand a lot of science, people have to be willing and able to climb those shoulders and to decipher the information to see the light above the clouds. And to climb, people have to be willing to accept the basics before they can make it to the next step. Nothing in science will make sense without building up to it. And if anyone wanted to go backwards down to the giants toes, we could always do that too, to look at the foundation in which they stand.

And sometimes it's not easy to climb because we see that climbing takes us in a direction we might not want to go. But if a concept rests on a principal, and if the principal is logically true, then to be fair, we just have to accept where that principal leads, regardless of where that place is.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

section9+1

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2017
1,662
1,158
58
US
✟88,913.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Evidence is an explanation of what happened. It is something observed. And people observe it and make it fit into biblical theology. They blend the two into one. Evidence translates the bible. The bible is made to fit the evidence. It is understood in the light of the evidence. So the evidence is really the light. The light comes from the earth. The truth comes from the earth. The earth is the source of the truth. And the measure and determiner of the truth. Nice to know what shapes people's truth and reality. God is so wise.
 
Upvote 0

DebbieJ

Active Member
Jun 1, 2020
266
243
25
Italy
✟29,659.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Greens
General Relativity has nothing to do with the evolution of ape to man, maybe you should Google.

I don't think we can continue to discuss further as we will go round and round in a merry go round.

As long as we don't have a basic knowledge of General Relativity or science as a whole, we won't appreciate what the Bible is saying. We become hostile to knowledge. The natural world and the laws that binds it were created by the Lord. We use science to understand the Lord's creation. Nature itself is like a scripture where we use scientific tools to read it.

Believing in evolution does not in any way lose our salvation nor cancel our faith in the Lord.

You believe in 6 days, alright, whatever rocks your boat even if the evening and the morning is not 12 hrs but 24 hrs.

I believe what the evidence tells me. The earth is really old as well as all living things which underwent an evolutionary process. The Lord created the universe relative to his timescale of 6 days. Relative to us, it's billions of years. It's really about General Relativity.

Thanks for reading. Ciao!
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,142
22,742
US
✟1,732,532.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Evidence is an explanation of what happened. It is something observed. And people observe it and make it fit into biblical theology. They blend the two into one. Evidence translates the bible. The bible is made to fit the evidence. It is understood in the light of the evidence. So the evidence is really the light. The light comes from the earth. The truth comes from the earth. The earth is the source of the truth. And the measure and determiner of the truth. Nice to know what shapes people's truth and reality. God is so wise.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.

They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.

Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
-- Psalm 19

Creation itself, even separately from scripture, is a reliable witness. That's why Paul could say:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
-- Romans 2

What is observable in creation is so reliable that even without scripture, without prophets, without supernatural revelation from a mountain top, the eternal power and divine nature of God is still discernible.

Only because creation itself is such a reliable witness can even people who have nothing but creation are still held accountable, without excuse, for believing at least that God exists and His nature is virtuous. Those Paul found believing in the Unknown God had gotten at least that far.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,142
22,742
US
✟1,732,532.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't think we can continue to discuss further as we will go round and round in a merry go round.

As long as we don't have a basic knowledge of General Relativity or science as a whole, we won't appreciate what the Bible is saying. We become hostile to knowledge. The natural world and the laws that binds it were created by the Lord. We use science to understand the Lord's creation. Nature itself is like a scripture where we use scientific tools to read it.

Believing in evolution does not in any way lose our salvation nor cancel our faith in the Lord.

You believe in 6 days, alright, whatever rocks your boat even if the evening and the morning is not 12 hrs but 24 hrs.

I believe what the evidence tells me. The earth is really old as well as all living things which underwent an evolutionary process. The Lord created the universe relative to his timescale of 6 days. Relative to us, it's billions of years. It's really about General Relativity.

Thanks for reading. Ciao!

How does God reveal to man? Sometimes it's directly in language, such as to Moses by the Burning Bush. But usually it's in the form of visions and dreams, and most often without explanation or narration--the man just sees things and has to be given an explanation of what he's seen.

'Way back in the 60s, I developed a theory--I consider it a theory only--that the writer of the Genesis Creation narrative (let's say Moses) was shown through a series of dreams a time-lapsed view of creation as it would be naturally visible from the surface of earth by the natural vision of a human being. That is, no "telescopic vision" or "microscopic vision" or "X-ray vision." His view point is from ground-level somewhere that is today the middle east.

If a man got the scientific concept of natural astronomical, geographical, and biological creation shown to him--all those billions of years--compressed into maybe six nightly dreams or visions...what would he actually see and describe?

I think he would have seen in those dreams exactly what we see described in Genesis. He can't see what's going on in outer space, he can't see what's happening at the microscopic level or in the depths of the ocean. With billions or millions of years compressed into a few hours of dreams, he would see things spring suddenly into existence.

From an earth-surface viewpoint, for instance, he would first see nothing at all until Sol began burning in the visual spectrum. Then because of the dense gaseous overcast, he'd see nothing but a blank light such as through the densest of cloud overcasts we experience today. It would be some time later (millions of years time-lapsed into the third night's dream) before the cloud cover dispersed enough for him to make out the discrete disks of the sun and the moon.

Before that, while the cloud cover provided light but was still too dense to make out the disks of the sun and moon, he would have been able to see the time-lapsed movement of tectonic plates from his position to reveal new seas and new land.

He wouldn't see "evolution" at all...he would see things happen and beings appear suddenly because millions of years are time-lapsed into just a few hours.

And he would see the scientific viewpoint in just the order told by Genesis.
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,995
1,874
46
Uruguay
✟647,012.00
Country
Uruguay
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How does God reveal to man? Sometimes it's directly in language, such as to Moses by the Burning Bush. But usually it's in the form of visions and dreams, and most often without explanation or narration--the man just sees things and has to be given an explanation of what he's seen.

'Way back in the 60s, I developed a theory--I consider it a theory only--that the writer of the Genesis Creation narrative (let's say Moses) was shown through a series of dreams a time-lapsed view of creation as it would be naturally visible from the surface of earth by the natural vision of a human being. That is, no "telescopic vision" or "microscopic vision" or "X-ray vision." His view point is from ground-level somewhere that is today the middle east.

If a man got the scientific concept of natural astronomical, geographical, and biological creation shown to him--all those billions of years--compressed into maybe six nightly dreams or visions...what would he actually see and describe?

I think he would have seen in those dreams exactly what we see described in Genesis. He can't see what's going on in outer space, he can't see what's happening at the microscopic level or in the depths of the ocean. With billions or millions of years compressed into a few hours of dreams, he would see things spring suddenly into existence.

From an earth-surface viewpoint, for instance, he would first see nothing at all until Sol began burning in the visual spectrum. Then because of the dense gaseous overcast, he'd see nothing but a blank light such as through the densest of cloud overcasts we experience today. It would be some time later (millions of years time-lapsed into the third night's dream) before the cloud cover dispersed enough for him to make out the discrete disks of the sun and the moon.

Before that, while the cloud cover provided light but was still too dense to make out the disks of the sun and moon, he would have been able to see the time-lapsed movement of tectonic plates from his position to reveal new seas and new land.

He wouldn't see "evolution" at all...he would see things happen and beings appear suddenly because millions of years are time-lapsed into just a few hours.

And he would see the scientific viewpoint in just the order told by Genesis.

Except evolutionist mostly agree that evolution alone without the need of anyone can make things happen. That is what they teach in schools. Like that 100,000 tiny random mutations piled up to make an eye. God made things, if he directed evolution then its design not evolution, and we know how evolutionist get triggered by 'design'.

So someone has to be in the wrong here, either evolutionists thinking evolution alone is enough, or the christians saying God planned nature.
 
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Show me where a fruit or vegetable tree/plant has every created something other than what was planted. The millions of years is added for the imagination of this happening because the observation of this never happens. It's the only way the theory works, there's 0 observations of this. Same for animals. Just dead bones or parts.
. You did not go there . Brussels sprouts and cabbage and a few others all meet your criteria . There’s the Italian wall lizard that is now 2 different species . And there’s Timema cristinae which is in the process of speciating. We can and do see this happening in real time . To go from a lobefinned fish to a human ( or any other mammal ) did take about 400 million years . Our DNA demonstrates this ancestry even if creationists like to ignore that
 
  • Like
Reactions: kybela
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,995
1,874
46
Uruguay
✟647,012.00
Country
Uruguay
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
. You did not go there . Brussels sprouts and cabbage and a few others all meet your criteria . There’s the Italian wall lizard that is now 2 different species . And there’s Timema cristinae which is in the process of speciating. We can and do see this happening in real time . To go from a lobefinned fish to a human ( or any other mammal ) did take about 400 million years . Our DNA demonstrates this ancestry even if creationists like to ignore that

You believe God created the earth and whats in it?
 
Upvote 0