Does anybody still think you have to spank to be a good Christian parent?

[HeatherJay]

Hubby (BigJimP, who posted on this thread) and I had a discussion about this topic last night. Warning: here comes another curveball.

How many of us have seen the movie "Coal Miner's Daughter"? It's the life story of country singer Loretta Lynn. Well, early on in the movie when she's 13 years old, her much older boyfriend shows up unexpectedly. Loretta sets down the baby sister she's been asked to take care of, and she runs off with her boyfriend without saying so much as a word to anybody. When she got home, her daddy had a switch waiting for her. Well, it's like I told Jim last night. When I saw that part in the movie (I was 15 at the time) I ducked down in my theater seat. I coudn't stand to watch it. But, get ready to be shocked. I said at the time, and I say now, she had it coming.

Jim points out that this was Appalachia during 1940's, and it's the way things were done. A spanking that severe, today, especially in a less isolated society, might just result in government intervention. Which is not necessarily a good thing. I seriously doubt that Mrs. Lynn would say her daddy abused her.

So, as I believe, even a severe spanking is not necessarily abuse. I didn't really mean to debate that in the first place. What makes me see red is when parents use Scripture to justify not mere spanking but actual abuse--which is not what I'm seeing from anybody here.

The thing that struck me the most about that scene in the movie is how Loretta's mother loved her up afterwards. I would have gotten the "don't talk to her, she's been a bad girl" treatment. When her mother talked kindly to her after that spanking, it surprised me. I honestly thought, because of my own experience, that when your parents spanked you, it was because you were such a horrible person that they didn't love you at that moment, and they were going to stay mad at you for a while afterwards and not have anything to do with you until their temper cooled down. This is not the picture of a healthy, appropriate spanking. And again, it's not what I'm picking up from parents on this thread.

The only thing I question about the scene in the movie is that all of the brothers and sisters were in the room during the spanking. It seems to me it should have been in private. If I had been one of the parents, I would have sent them out of the room beforehand, not afterward. Some people might say, "Well, that's to teach the other kids that they'll get the same thing if they do wrong." Granted. But wouldn't it teach that lesson just to know it happened, without the other kids actually having to see it?

I think the most important thing is to reassure your kids that they're always loved, no matter what. And it's important to tell them this when they're not in trouble, as well.

I tell mine all the time, "There's nothing you could ever do to make me stop loving you." I tell them when I'm snuggling with them for fun, and I tell them when I'm snuggling with them after they've been in trouble...and I tell them a lot just in passing, lol. We're a very affectionate family and they get kisses and love ALL the time. And I tell them that that is the same way that our Heavenly Father feels about us...there's nothing we can ever do to stop His love for us. Parental love should be the same way...and kids should be reassured of this on a daily basis.

No matter how naughty they've been, and no matter the discipline, they need to feel confident that our love for them will not waver. And they need to hear it ALL the time, not just when they're in trouble.

 

[Christdefinesme]

.....The only thing I question about the scene in the movie is that all of the brothers and sisters were in the room during the spanking. It seems to me it should have been in private. If I had been one of the parents, I would have sent them out of the room beforehand, not afterward. Some people might say, "Well, that's to teach the other kids that they'll get the same thing if they do wrong." Granted. But wouldn't it teach that lesson just to know it happened, without the other kids actually having to see it?

I believe it's extremely important to a child's dignity for a spanking to be carried out in private. We always carry out this discipline in private, it's humiliating and unneccessary to receive a swat in front of others.
This goes with other discipline methods, too. Reprimands and such should be private, also.
Interesting discussion point. Important one, too.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

I believe it's extremely important to a child's dignity for a spanking to be carried out in private. We always carry out this discipline in private, it's humiliating and unneccessary to receive a swat in front of others.
This goes with other discipline methods, too. Reprimands and such should be private, also.
Interesting discussion point. Important one, too.

Why? When you break the law, you are not disciplined in private. The bible says things that done in the darkness will be exposed to the light, things doen in secret will be shouted from the rooftops. I think it is more damaging to hide a child punishment, like it is something to be ashamed of. We need to teach our children humility, being humble and learning from their mistakes rather then trying to cover them over in secret.

 

[lucypevensie]

Why? When you break the law, you are not disciplined in private. The bible says things that done in the darkness will be exposed to the light, things doen in secret will be shouted from the rooftops. I think it is more damaging to hide a child punishment, like it is something to be ashamed of. We need to teach our children humility, being humble and learning from their mistakes rather then trying to cover them over in secret.

You don't think it's humbling to a child to be spanked in private? What's not humbling about that? THe way I see it is that it's humbling to be spanked - period. It goes beyond humbling into humiliation when a kid is spanked, reprimanded, rebuked, in front of an audience.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

Again I disagree, I do not in anyway degrade my children when they get disciplined (no I am not insinuating that you or anyone else does) they get told what they did was wrong, why it was wrong what they can do to fix it and the consequences for doing it (assuming they knew it was wrong to begin with) I do not make the other childrne go in the other room when I do this, I do not take my child into a private room to do this b/c I feel the others can also learn from this, and also I want them to grow up realizing that they are not going to get disicplined in private when they grow up. I guess the difference is my kids don't generally get spanked once they are about 4, to me a 4 year old getting a spanking does not get embarrassed.

 

[cruztacean]

I submit that when a child misbehaves in public, and Mama or Daddy makes a point of hauling him/her off to a private location, the public pretty much knows what's coming. I would think that's humbling enough without the public actually having to witness the proceedings. But, AD, I agree that it makes a difference when it's a very small child. Small children have goldfish memories. If you wait very long, they might not make the connection between the infraction and the spanking and wonder what the heck you're doing it for. You make an excellent point about not being disciplined in private when you grow up. I hadn't looked at it that way before.

I agree, HJ, about the love messages. I seem to recall my mother (never my father) saying those things when I was very little, but it died out, while the physical discipline did not. So, by the time I was 10 or 11, I got the impression she must have stopped loving us. I remember my sister, the youngest, then age around 5 or 6, telling the rest of us, "But she only does it because she loves us." And I answered, "You really believe that? That's only what she says. It isn't really true." And when the physical discipline is indiscriminate, given for any little thing including just voicing your own opinion, and accompanied by a lot of yelling and profanity, you can see why I thought that.

Spanking was not a consistent routine in our house. It often came unexpectedly, and more often if Mom had a rough day and was simply in a bad mood. It could be for something like arguing over a game's rules, then there would be a sneak up behind us and POP. If I said something my mother disagreed with, my mouth got slapped. I got the impression that her definition of sassing back was saying anything other than "Yes, ma'am." (And I even got slapped for saying "Yes, ma'am" once, because I'd said it in too small a voice. Gee, mom, the small voice already means I'm scared to death. Thanks for giving me even more reason to be.)

I don't mean to pick on my mother; she wasn't the only perpetrator, but she was the most frequent one. The men in our lives came and went like there was a revolving door on our house. Mom was the one who was always there, so when I think of physical abuse, I usually envision my mother.

My father was in our lives at two points; Mom married and divorced him twice. He was even worse. On the public spanking, he had one philosophy: "If you misbehave in public, you're going to get smacked in public. I don't care if we're in church." And the "smack" would come out of nowhere. You didn't know you were doing anything wrong until WHOPPPP! It was in the face, it extended into our teenage years, and it was for any infraction at all. You could literally look at him wrong and get a smack.

I don't mean to ramble. I just wanted to give the general public a glimpse of what it's like in an abusive household, and that wasn't the worst of it. I could tell of other aspects of the abuse, that would not be appropriate here in this forum.

My mother, to this day, absolutely refuses to call it abuse. I confronted her once, after she had taken a clipboard to my brother and caused welts on his face that made him a neighborhood spectacle: I mean, kids were gathered around him--"Man! What happened to YOU?" I said, "Isn't that child abuse?" And she answered, "(Profanity) no! They used to take kids out behind the barn and..." I don't care what they used to do. It was abuse then, and it's abuse now.

What makes me maddest is that one of my teachers actually called it child abuse by name, but didn't step in to help stop it. (1979. I *think* there was a law in place then.) Probably my reason for posting this is to ask: Especially you who spank, if you saw this going on next door to you, you'd make the appropriate phone call...wouldn't you?

 

[AutumnDreamer]

Yes, if I saw what happened to you, happening to a child in my neighborhood I would definitely make a call.

 

[JoannaJoy]

-

 

[BigJimP]

Pardon my wife for trying to overcome her abuse issues by seeking support from people who spank their children in a normal, healthy way. I'm going to ask her as her husband to unsubscribe from this thread. She wasn't saying anything about YOU. She was just trying to get help learning the difference between spanking and abuse, since her own experience didn't teach her the difference. If you're insulted, I think I'd call you pretty darn thin-skinned.

Edited to take out where I mention another poster's specific name. No mod told me to, I just thought it was best.

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

no longer relevent

 

[progressivegal]

I was recently staying with my cousin who has a young son, and I read a little of one of her books called "what to expect in the toddler years" (in the same series as "What to expect when you're expecting").
I basically agree with this books recomendations about spanking.
It clearly mentions that every child is different, and that some children may benefit from time-outs more and some from spankings, etc. But for the most part it recomended to never pre-meditate spankings, spank in anger, or spank as a result of a violent act from the child (ie.e no "eye for an eye"). They recomend spanking only when a child puts themselves in danger so that they understand the gravity of their situation. I.E. If a kid is running out in to traffic, pull them back and give them a swat on the butt so they realize the sevarity of the situation. However; waiting until later to spank them kind of misses the point, once the moment has passed it's kind of pointless and just spanking for the sake of spanking. IT also mentioned that often times spanking won't teach children the difference between what is right and what is wrong, but rather what will get them a spanking and what won't. Personally, I feel that this is very wise and sound advice. I might not be explaining it perfectly clearly, but I say read the book

Also, from a childs point of view here's how I felt:
My parents rarely spanked us, I think maybe I was spanked a couple of times when I was younger than 6, my sister a little more. For the most part when we where in trouble we where sent to our room and/or lost priveledges which in my mind as a child was something I dreaded much more. I was and am very social, I loved being out around people, talking playing, and just having freedom. Even though my room as some people put it was "full of toys" I hated being sent their against my will. I would have preferred a spanking any day and actually told my parent's "Can't I just have a spanking instead?" on a number of occassions. Being sent to my room was boring and made me think twice about my behavior, whereas if I had recieved a spanking it would only have lasted a second and then I would have been able to go play again. Time by myself, gave me time to cry, pray, and think about what I did. It also gave me time to cool off and eventrually appologize to whomever I hurt.

Obviously every child is different. I certainly don't think spanking is wrong or bad, especially considering that every child is differnet, but I absolutely believe that there is a specific age when spankings are appropriate, I don't think babies should ever be spanked (I saw my brother in law "training" his baby son by setting him next to something he was not supposed to touch and then everytime he touched it slapping him with a wooden spoon across the hand. this made me so sad and so angry I can barely express it here)
, nor do I think it's appropriate for parents to spank their children after they've reached puberty,I've known quite a few teenage girls who where "spanked" by their step fathers as punishment, which just leaves a horribley bad taste in my mouth about physical punishment.

 

[Leanna]

Wow.... well, I just don't think its necessary to spank to raise good kids, and since its not necessary I choose not to.

 

[sammipher]

My last post and probably view in this thread. Yes we will spank as I said before. It will never be done out of anger and it will never be our first choice of punishment. I do agree there will be age where we will feel spanking is no longer appropriate. Now I know I will be blasted for what I am about to write...that is why I probably won't even bother to return to this thread. But, I really don't care. I have been doing some Bible study on this...after viewing this thread. So here are some things for you to ponder:

Proverbs 13:24: He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes

You can take this verse in many ways on what the rod means. Agreed? Yes it does mean disipline that is reasonable for the offense...we have all agreed that parents have to do some form of punishment when their child has wronged...when called for it...correct?

Now here are a list of scriptures than can go with this above scripture:
Proverbs
10:13
22:15
23:14,15
29:15

Now in all these scriptures the rod is refered to as something that stings...maybe a branch or switch. But, I have not found scripture where the rod was used as something else that did not cause pain.......please post if you have found these scriptures...I am always up for a Bible lesson. With that being said....we chose our parenting skills not just from the Bible....but, also by how we were raised...what we see to be most effective today in other famalies. This all combines together...so no I am not trying to hide behind the Bible saying this is why I spank. I am just simply giving you scriptures to read and think about.

Now on to provoke:
EPH6:4 "And ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath; but bring them up in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord."
So provoke into wrath can mean: loss of temper, mis-use of authority and many more.
I don't feel spanking is a mis-use of authority....now if you lost your temper and spanked your child...yes that is totally wrong. Let's think of a minute ....basically provoke someone mean to make them mad...correct? Well if little johnny is doing something wrong and you punish him by making him stand in a corner...wouldn't that provoke him to anger? Your not letting him do something that he sees there is nothing wrong in. So yes...by spanking a child that provokes him to anger as well. Either way you are provoking your child. So you can't say well one is worse than the other...cause there is no big sin or little sin...they are equally the same.

So basically what I get is the Bible is telling you in order to love your child there must be some sort of punishment to their wrongs....and to always remember that the Lord is also having a hand in your child's rearing.

***So as noted above...I may not come back to this thread...so nasty posts will probably go unanswered...in other wards they are pointless. But, this subject has been weighing on my mind lately. I think that the same people that are trashing others using the Bible as how they chose their discipline are doing just that themselves. We would all love for scriptures to conform to our life and how we live...that way we would feel like we are living a good Christian life and are doing no wrong. So of course all of us on here will never agree to one meaning of scripture...that's life. I don't think any less of anyone that chooses non-spanking as their way of punishment as to those that do choose it...I just noticed that it seemed like alot of "spankers" were getting alot of griff about it. I am just giving y'all some things to look on and think on. Now I hope that all of you will still be civil to me and don't put me on your ignore list...cause I have nothing against anyone on here...Just some interesting facts I found on my Bible study journey***

 

[AutumnDreamer]

Now in all these scriptures the rod is refered to as something that stings...maybe a branch or switch. But, I have not found scripture where the rod was used as something else that did not cause pain.......please post if you have found these scriptures...

Psalm 23

The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your ROD and Your staff, they COMFORT ME.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will £dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.

 

[KristyAnne]

I posted some links way back in this thread, but I'll re-post them here so people don't have to go searching, because they are relevant to Sammipher's comments.

Rod/Shebet
Divine Scourging
These articles offer alternative interpretation of sripture seeming to support physical discipline.

 

[Leanna]

Proverbs also says to give a poor man alcohol so he can drink away his sorrows, and I don't think that's a good idea either. Do you? Proverbs are not "commandments" of the Lord.

 

[Chrystabelle]

Is it really child abuse to slap your child lightly on the cheek if she is having an hysterical fit and she is autistic? Someone in the Ethical Debate section has been giving me: for it and it has made me really, really and


http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22970785#post22970785

 

[~RENEE~]

I believe that there is a fine line between abuse and correction. And that God expects us to correct our children but not abuse them. And that there are some who "in the name of religion" abuses their children/ In other words they misquote the bible to say that they are right to abuse their children. I was one that was abused in that manner. And honestly I thank my mother for doing that because I know what not to do to my boy. You don't abuse your kid period.

 

[Leanna]

Is it really child abuse to slap your child lightly on the cheek if she is having an hysterical fit and she is autistic? Someone in the Ethical Debate section has been giving me: for it and it has made me really, really and


http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22970785#post22970785

I certainly wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Some people that spank/hit abuse that, and some people don't. You know what helps your daughter. If it helps your autistic child to get under control(calmer, something like that) then I suppose it is a good thing, but if it is a punishment I wouldn't be in favor of it... but I still wouldn't call it abuse. I wouldn't worry about people that make blanket statements like that.... there's always one. On the flip side I get the opposite.... since we don't spank we must not be teaching him how to behave or how to have discipline. I guess some people everything is all or nothing. Right and wrong for them and everyone.