Does anybody still think you have to spank to be a good Christian parent?

[HeatherJay]

Now this point just really confuses me, so I am really asking this. Like I said, my husband was spanked and it didn't hurt... so he just felt silly... its not for the embarrassment effect if you're doing it at home and there aren't any people in front of them. So then I wonder, what is the point at all if it isn't the pain that "disciplines" them? What is disciplining about a non painful spanking?

Well, maybe spanking just wasn't the appropriate punishment for your husband? I think we can all agree that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to disciplining kids, right?

My kids are both pleasers. And they're very sensitive emotionally. Apparently just the idea that they've pushed me to that point is enough to shame them. They don't like to disappoint us...and if we spank them, then they know that we're really not happy about their behavior, they've crossed a line, and they straighten up.

I would never want to physically hurt them. But spanking them (and when I say spanking I'm talking about a quick swat or two on the butt) is more of a wake up call for them. It works for my kids...and I very rarely have to use it at all. It's a last resort.

No one punishment fits all kids, but I don't think it's ever appropriate to hurt a child. And a child can be hurt in more than strictly physical ways...and often emotional damage is much for devastating than physical marks. I guess I, too, get frustrated with the implication that spanking is this cruel, barbaric form of punishment, when there are parents out there who don't spank but who hurt there children just as much, if not more than parents who do.

I think we can agree that hurting a child should never be the goal of any punishment, right?

 

[Lena75]

I see nothing wrong with spanking so long as it's done properly and doesn't turn to abuse.

 

[cruztacean]

What is disciplining about a non painful spanking?

One of the very rare times I can remember why I was spanked: I was six years old, and in a department store with my grandfather. He'd told me repeatedly to stop touching things on the shelves, and finally he warned me that he'd spank me next time. Knowing I was his favorite grandchild, I didn't think he'd really do it.

I was wrong.

What I got was two little swats, not hard enough to hurt, and certainly not hard enough to make me even think about crying. What hurt more than the spanking was seeing how sad Pappaw was when he said, "Now I'm going to have to spank you."

He told my grandmother afterwards that he'd had to spank me, and she looked at me full of pity, saying, "poor little lamb." And there I am answering, "No, Mammaw, I deserved it." You see, Pappaw did it the right way. I'm sure it ripped his heart out to have to spank his favorite grandchild. Whereas, if he had lost his temper and yelled at me and acted as if he just couldn't wait to get at me, I would have remembered this episode in an entirely different way, and Mammaw's sympathy would have convinced me that he was only being mean. As it is now, I wish I could bring Pappaw back to life and apologize to him for making him spank me.

That is what good a non-painful spanking can do.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

I was not spank as a child, I do spank my children when they need it, well not much anymore as my youngest is 5 and has outgrown it. I do have issues with some, notice I said SOME, parents who refuse to spank and those are the ones who use no form of discipline at all. I have come across very FEW parents IRL that do not spank and have well behaved children. Am I saying it can't happen? No, I just haven't seen it. I was a good kid, but my mother had other ways of disciplining me, like guilt, manipulation, etc. IMO those memories never go away. It has been my experience that parents that don't spank, talk to their children the way my mom talked to me and it makes me cringe. I am not saying all parents who don't spank are like this, only that it has been my experience with the people I know.

 

[cruztacean]

The tone the OP is usin is that of a person lookin for a fight it seems. Really thats not a good way of puttin it, I should reword it but not really sure how.

I can relate to that. I probably should have reworded the OP a little better myself, then you might not have gotten that impression.

What I git bent bout .... is folks/parents who refuse to disicpline thier children, lettin em run a muck etc. I don't much care if one parent decides to spank wit an object er not at all etc etc if you don't disicpline your children I think you abuse em.

Yes sir, that irks me too. A lot of times I think it's because these parents don't feel they should spank but don't know what to do instead. Which is very sad. It's the same as what I said earlier from the other from the other side of the coin: some people think it's either spank the daylights out of the kid, or don't discipline at all. I'm just saying there's a happy medium, and I'm pleased to see that this seems to be the opinion here.

In effect, sir, you're saying, "I don't care HOW you discipline your child. Just DO IT." Do I get you right?

 

[sammipher]

I think their can be two sides...those who spank and those who do not...and neither be a bad parent. As for me my hubby and I have decided that we will spank. We will never do it out of anger and it will be after a warning. We will give her time to realize what she is doing before we go to that type of punishment. My hubby was spanked as a child...it did not scar him. His dad was always the one who did the spanking in his family and that's who he has always been the closest to.(til recently which is another story and is all on his mother not his father). As for me I was never spanked. My mom would spank us every once in a while with flip flops...the foam ones. They never hurt and actually became a joke. Instead my family used the form of yelling and threatening as a form of discipline at times. I can't tell you how many times I would rather had a spanking than my mom yelling at me "do you want me to kill myself...cause that's what you are driving me to."(yes, I was very close to my mom...but, she was not a perfect parent..but, she was not always a bad parent...growing up she did have some mental type issues)....in front of company I was a well mannered angel. At home behind closed doors I backed talked my mom alot...cause I had no discipline besides yelling most of the time...sometimes cussing involved in that when my dad seem to yell at me(yes yelling hurts your feelings at first...but then eventually you just know they are never gonna back up with they say..you seem to not to care anymore about it...it really doesn't sneak up on you til adulthood when it begins to bother you...at the time its the norm...where as to me a spanking may have stayed with me longer at the time...maybe meant something more than just being yelled at or really just any type of discipline...just something that says...hey I see you doing wrong and you have to face the consequences now). I had a "I will do what I wanna do" attitude cause nothing was ever done about it. Oh, the guilty talks, maybe a time out in the corner or couch(usually I didn't get anything), and yelling...but, it didn't stop me from doing what I wanted(I wasn't at all times a bad child...just when I got in my moods I guess like any child). At times I felt like since there were no punishment to my actions...did anyone really care? I am not saying you have to spank your child to let them know you care...but, I believe when a child acts up their should be some form of punishment for their actions...whether it be spanking, time-outs, in person apologies(this was something my mom did that just plain out embarassed me with someone I did wrong too...I had to go face to face and tell them what I done and I was sorry...told you she wasn't always a bad parent), or groundings (this is why I don't believe children should have t.v.'s in their room and such...it shouldn't be a place sent to to play when in trouble). Everyone has their different parenting skills...that doesn't make us a bad parent cause we chose one of the other. I don't consider those who don't spank bad parents....just cause I chose not to. All that matters with either side is there is some form of punishment for bad actions that children do...that is our job to set them on a path of goodness...they will never understand that if we let them get away with everything...as an adult we are setting them up for failure.

 

[KristyAnne]

Well, maybe spanking just wasn't the appropriate punishment for your husband? I think we can all agree that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to disciplining kids, right?

My kids are both pleasers. And they're very sensitive emotionally. Apparently just the idea that they've pushed me to that point is enough to shame them. They don't like to disappoint us...and if we spank them, then they know that we're really not happy about their behavior, they've crossed a line, and they straighten up.

I would never want to physically hurt them. But spanking them (and when I say spanking I'm talking about a quick swat or two on the butt) is more of a wake up call for them. It works for my kids...and I very rarely have to use it at all. It's a last resort.

No one punishment fits all kids, but I don't think it's ever appropriate to hurt a child. And a child can be hurt in more than strictly physical ways...and often emotional damage is much for devastating than physical marks. I guess I, too, get frustrated with the implication that spanking is this cruel, barbaric form of punishment, when there are parents out there who don't spank but who hurt there children just as much, if not more than parents who do.

I think we can agree that hurting a child should never be the goal of any punishment, right?

Like Leanna, I was a bit confused about this too. I get that people want to get their children's attention, but why spanking as opposed to, say, clapping you hands loudly? It's not painful, and makes the same sound, right?

Cruztacean, I think I know the kind of people that you're talking about. I was talking to a lady I didn't know very well at the time, and she noticed a book that I was reading on alternatives to spanking. She mentioned that she spanked because she was a Christian (not knowing at the time that I was a Christian too), as if naturally she had to spank for that reason.

I've known others who want to spank, and use the fact that the Bible can appear to justify what they want to do anyway, and that annoys me (in real life, I'm not having a go at anyone on this board).

 

[Athene]

To me spanking is the last resort punishment, and because I so rarely spank, my kids know that when they are spanked they've upset me very much, and it's more the fact that they've upset me so much then the spanking itself which is the real punishment.

Anyways, the sad truth is that people will use the bible to justify abominable treatment of others, even their own children. If I were you cruztacean, which I'm not but if I were, I'd file these people under the lable of 'not quite playing with a full deck' and go on with you life.

 

[cruztacean]

Like Leanna, I was a bit confused about this too. I get that people want to get their children's attention, but why spanking as opposed to, say, clapping you hands loudly? It's not painful, and makes the same sound, right?

Hee, hee! I do that with my CATS! Scares the liver out of 'em.

She mentioned that she spanked because she was a Christian (not knowing at the time that I was a Christian too), as if naturally she had to spank for that reason.

People. They can be such.... well, never mind.

I tried to tell a lady once that "Spare the rod, spoil the child" was NOT in fact in the Bible, and what that particular proverb actually said. She cut me off with, "I'm not gonna argue with you, lady, 'cuz I know!" It later came up that she couldn't read. How did she "know"? Because her mother told her.

What amazes me is how many parents (and even non-parents, as in Miss I-know's case) fall all over themselves quoting (or mis-quoting) Proverbs 13:24 and Ephesians 6:1, but they stop reading Ephesians 6 before they get to verse 4 which says

And ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath; but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

And they certainly overlook Matthew 18:6.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ: Don't you hurt a child, or you'd be better off at the bottom of the ocean.

Now, if you guys want me to shut up and quit preaching, I'll do it. In this case it seems I'm preaching to the choir anyway, since I'm not seeing much of that kind of thinking around here. It's just that the issue means so much to me. I wish I'd known these things when I was a brand new parent.

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

People. They can be such.... well, never mind.


What amazes me is how many parents (and even non-parents, as in Miss I-know's case) fall all over themselves quoting (or mis-quoting) Proverbs 13:24 and Ephesians 6:1, but they stop reading Ephesians 6 before they get to verse 4 which says
And they certainly overlook Matthew 18:6. Straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ: Don't you hurt a child, or you'd be better off at the bottom of the ocean.

Now, if you guys want me to shut up and quit preaching, I'll do it. In this case it seems I'm preaching to the choir anyway, since I'm not seeing much of that kind of thinking around here. It's just that the issue means so much to me. I wish I'd known these things when I was a brand new parent.

Oyi.... I sorta thought you'd redeemed yoursef a bit in this thread by keepin a bit of a level head an backin off the horrible child beater parents... but it sure looks to me ya slipped a bit.

This is what's got my goat here, an I'm not lookin to send this thread into the depths of a debate, but I'd jes be real careful before I started sayin "anyone" who spanks thier children, "hurts" them... an then should end up at the bottom of the sea. I think in fact you are mis quotin Matthew here. Jesus was not talkin bout disicpline anyways.

Like wise, you can see in the bible that the use of the word rod, while not always a pyhsical board used to spank etc, is used to disicpline.
[bible]2 Samuel 7:14[/bible]

Is there anythin wrong wit spankin accordin to the bible? Nope, not so far as I've ever seen. It really annoys me folks who think spankers are deliberitly tryin to inflict pain er sufferin on their children when it's got nuthin to do wit that at all. The sting in thier backside is merely a reminder of what they done wrong, it's reinforced into their mind cause it equates wit sumthin I figure. Now if'n you don't wanna spank, don't. But bes be careful, anyone ought, when they start holdin spankers in such horrible light. Here's a couple more scriptures that reflect rod to physical implmentation.

[bible]Proverbs 10:13[/bible]

[bible]Proverbs 22:15[/bible]

Folks often miss Proverbs 22:15.... but it's one I can fully understand... espcially as a kid when I'd go off half cocked bullheaded, gittin whacked for my screw up was what I personally needed to be corrected.... ya know I absouletly disagree wit time outs er groundins etc.... cause as a kid, when I got in trouble it was dealt wit swiftly an immediatly, once it was over wit it was done... not to be spoken of agin. But when I'd git grounded er sent to my room................................................... Boy howdy I jes had all sorts of time to git more an more hacked off, started dreamin up horrible violent thoughts, wanted to hurt my parents er whoever it was that was forcin me to stay in my room er grounded, an what's worse, I'd try to justify my actions er blame someone else.... it was a joke. I screwed up, I was told how an why I screwed up, I got spanked an that was the end of it. Over wit, at the most in half a day er so, dependin on what was goin on. I think time outs, an groundins are a joke... but I'm not goin to sit here an say that folks who employ these methods are heathens from hell.

Folks have disagreed wit me in the past, but I feel very strongly bout this, I find a parent who doesn't disicpline er punish thier children, allows them to git away wit murder er throwin fits in public etc, to be more abusive then anyone else, aside from say sumthin sexual etc. Those kids grow up, are in constant trouble, treat the world like it's their own personal play ground an act like everone an everthin else in the world owes em sumthin. Give me half an hour wit em... I garentee I'll put the fear of God in em.... (Now I know non-spankers took that comment to mean I'd spank em, welll maybe I would. But a disappointed look an an explanation of why one is goin to git a spankin always hurt my folks more then the physical pain I got out of it.) Folks don't care anymore if they disappoint someone, er their parents er loved ones, they have no honor they jes don't care. Folks used to respect folks, an even if they didn't love em, they tried not to disappoint em, school teachers an what not.

Reckon, I'll quit rantin for a bit...

 

[jazzbird]

A2J -

Maybe I shouldn't speak for cruztacean, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think she was implying that anyone who spanks hurts their children and is guilty of violating Matt. 18. (But correct me if I'm wrong). The point is that it can happen, and we all need to be dilegent about how we treat our precious children. I just read an article yesterday about a little boy who died because his (Christian) mother was following the Pearl's spanking advice to the extreme. Things like that happen, and there are parents who spank their kids to the point where it is abuse - and that point comes long before the child's death.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that I don't think the statement was meant to be judgemental. I believe the verse to be very relevant to this discussion. God has blessed us with a very serious undertaking, and it's pretty obvious how he feels about those who mistreat "the least of these."

As for the rod...I wish I had more time, but gotta leave for church in a few - may have to come back later....many interpret the rod as physical punishment, but there is good reason to believe that it is not physical punishment, but rather discipline and guidance. There is certainly more than one way that the rod is spoken of in scripture. The shebet (rod) is a tool used to guide sheep. The shepherd does not hit the sheep with the rod. He guides them, and he uses the tool to ward off wolves from his flock.

I think it's important to remember that Proverbs is highly poetic in it's language, and therefore the meaning is often metaphorical. Solomon also says in Proverbs that gluttons should cut their throats. Is he really suggesting that they commit suicide to avoid their sin?

DH is calling me, but I'd be glad to expound on my thoughts later if anyone is interested. I realize in a discussion like this, many of us already have our mind up - we either believe the rod advocates spanking or that it doesn't, but it's an interesting discussion, none the less.

 

[AutumnDreamer]

Matthew 18:6. Straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ: Don't you hurt a child, or you'd be better off at the bottom of the ocean.

I think we need to be careful what scriptures we start quoting b/c they can very easily be taken out of context. Especially this one, if you are using this to justify not spanking your child, you could also use this to justify not discipling your child at all, discipline hurts them. They don't like and they get their feelings hurt, so does that mean you are better off in hell? No, but some people may misunderstand it this way when used the way you are using it.

 

[Leanna]

I think their can be two sides...those who spank and those who do not...and neither be a bad parent. As for me my hubby and I have decided that we will spank. We will never do it out of anger and it will be after a warning. We will give her time to realize what she is doing before we go to that type of punishment. My hubby was spanked as a child...it did not scar him. His dad was always the one who did the spanking in his family and that's who he has always been the closest to.(til recently which is another story and is all on his mother not his father). As for me I was never spanked. My mom would spank us every once in a while with flip flops...the foam ones. They never hurt and actually became a joke. Instead my family used the form of yelling and threatening as a form of discipline at times. I can't tell you how many times I would rather had a spanking than my mom yelling at me "do you want me to kill myself...cause that's what you are driving me to."(yes, I was very close to my mom...but, she was not a perfect parent..but, she was not always a bad parent...growing up she did have some mental type issues)....in front of company I was a well mannered angel. At home behind closed doors I backed talked my mom alot...cause I had no discipline besides yelling most of the time...sometimes cussing involved in that when my dad seem to yell at me(yes yelling hurts your feelings at first...but then eventually you just know they are never gonna back up with they say..you seem to not to care anymore about it...it really doesn't sneak up on you til adulthood when it begins to bother you...at the time its the norm...where as to me a spanking may have stayed with me longer at the time...maybe meant something more than just being yelled at or really just any type of discipline...just something that says...hey I see you doing wrong and you have to face the consequences now). I had a "I will do what I wanna do" attitude cause nothing was ever done about it. Oh, the guilty talks, maybe a time out in the corner or couch(usually I didn't get anything), and yelling...but, it didn't stop me from doing what I wanted(I wasn't at all times a bad child...just when I got in my moods I guess like any child). At times I felt like since there were no punishment to my actions...did anyone really care? I am not saying you have to spank your child to let them know you care...but, I believe when a child acts up their should be some form of punishment for their actions...whether it be spanking, time-outs, in person apologies(this was something my mom did that just plain out embarassed me with someone I did wrong too...I had to go face to face and tell them what I done and I was sorry...told you she wasn't always a bad parent), or groundings (this is why I don't believe children should have t.v.'s in their room and such...it shouldn't be a place sent to to play when in trouble). Everyone has their different parenting skills...that doesn't make us a bad parent cause we chose one of the other. I don't consider those who don't spank bad parents....just cause I chose not to. All that matters with either side is there is some form of punishment for bad actions that children do...that is our job to set them on a path of goodness...they will never understand that if we let them get away with everything...as an adult we are setting them up for failure.

I think you too realize that something else is wrong here besides "not spanking." It wasn't the fact that you weren't spanked that didn't teach you discipline, it was the fact that you weren't taught discipline. Does that make sense? People can raise well behaved kids without spanking them.

90% of adults have been spanked as children, and most consider themselves to be none the worse for it (Berger see below). I am just not the type of person do to something just because "its always been done" however.

Spanking relies on negative reinforcement-- you're telling your child what not to do rather than what TO do. Any psychology course will teach you that positive reinforcement techniques have better, longer lasting results than negative reinforcers. Toddlers especially have a hard time making the connection between their actions and the spanking. Even when it does have an impact it tends to be short lived, research shows that spanking is not helpful in changing childrens behavior over the long term.

In my child psychology course I learned the following, "How a parent disciplines a child is an integral part of parenting style. No developmentalist would suggest that young children should do whatever they please; but, given what researches have learned about cognition, it is apparent that proactive and preventative discipline is preferable to punishment after the misdeed." (Berger)

I also learned that among children who were *only* spanked, not hit or beaten in any other way, there was a higher expression of bullying aggression and reactive aggression, reactive aggression being, "she took my toy so I hit her." It has been guessed this is because the child connects spanking to anger, a powerful emotion for a 4 year old(Strassberg).

One longitudinal study (which means they watch a group and wait all the years for them to grow up and see the outcome) found that the mothers who controlled their children by yelling, grabbing and spanking had children whose aggressive and disruptive behavior increased between 3 and 6, but the effect was less if the families were warm and affectionate (Spieker).

Then there is the issue of the breaking connection it causes between parents and their children. It causes such an adversarial relationship to form. Ahh, I better stop here because I can see this is getting long and people don't read long posts.

So this is just some of what I learned that led my husband and I to head in the direction of being a non-spanking family. What we are doing instead of spanking is a hands-on approach. It takes more energy because instead of saying "don't do that" from the couch, I am more often to say "no, that's not for you..... lets do this" and then I physically guide him to an appropriate behavior. As he gets older there will be other methods.


Berger, Kathleen Stassen. "The Developing Person: Through Childhood and Adolescence," 224, 2003.

Spieker, Susan J., Larson, Nanacy C., Lewis, Steven M., Keller, Thomas E., & GilChrist, Lewayne. "Child Development," 1999.

Strassberg, Zvi, Dodge, Kenneth A., Pettit, Gregory S., & Bates, John E., "Development and Psychopathology", 1994.

 

[Leanna]

DH is calling me, but I'd be glad to expound on my thoughts later if anyone is interested.

Yes please do when you have time.

 

[cruztacean]

It isn't as if Matthew 18:6 is the only verse I quoted. I balanced it with others. I was only saying that some people don't look at it at all, then use Proverbs 13:24 to justify leaving bruises and welts. That's what my mother did. She used that "spare the rod" mentality a lot, but never once did I hear Ephesians 6:4 or Matthew 18:6 out of her.

Anyway, you're making the same tired assumption I was talking about in the first place: That unless you pound the daylights out of your kids, you're not disciplining them at all.

I'd like to expound on "the rod" too. It so happens I need a cane to walk. When we open the apartment door to go out, and one of our cats starts to dash out into the hallway, I might use my cane to block the cat's path and then steer him back inside. That's using the rod. If a child I'm with starts to do something dangerous, and I physically intervene to prevent it, that's using the rod. There is nothing that says using the rod has to involve violence.

Let me clear up again, for people who might not be getting me right: All spanking is not abuse. I am not, anywhere, saying parents should never spank. I was only challenging, which I still challenge, the old notion that Christian parents HAVE to spank.

 

[cruztacean]

Should have added--thanks, Jazzbird, for defending my position. You read me exactly right.

 

[KristyAnne]

I'd like to add a couple of links regarding alternate interpretation of scripture seeming to encourage physical discipline.
Rod/Shebet
Other scripture

 

[HeatherJay]

I agree with Jazzbird...and I certainly didn't interpret anything you've said as offensive. I think you explained your position really well.

And don't give up on A2J just yet, lol. He's a really wonderful guy, he's just got a little too much Texas in him. He likes a good confrontation now and then. But, he's a great father, and I seriously doubt he's spanking his daughter (who has him wrapped around her finger, no matter what he says, lol) in anyway other than what we've been talking about here...a a last resort and always with love. It's this topic...it always gets people fired up on both sides of the issue...and after you spend enough time defending yourself and your position on these forums, it's just really easy to get a little gunshy of those on the opposite side.

A2J, don't make us sic Jazz on you...she's pretty viscious as far as mods go.

Let's chill...this is the most polite spanking thread we've had in a while. Very refreshing.

 

[cruztacean]

I'd like to add a couple of links regarding alternate interpretation of scripture seeming to encourage physical discipline.
Rod/Shebet
Other scripture

Thank you for the link, KristyAnne. It's great!

If I won't get yelled at for it, I'd like to add another scripture, from Psalm 23: Thy rod and thy staff, they *comfort* me.

Now, as a child, I sometimes happened to see a belt lying on the floor, and the mere sight of it would *frighten* me. If a "rod" is something used to beat the daylights out of me, I'd have trouble thinking that the sight of it can *comfort* me.

 

[cruztacean]

I agree with Jazzbird...and I certainly didn't interpret anything you've said as offensive. I think you explained your position really well.

And don't give up on A2J just yet, lol. He's a really wonderful guy, he's just got a little too much Texas in him.

Texas?! I never would have guessed!

He likes a good confrontation now and then. But, he's a great father, and I seriously doubt he's spanking his daughter (who has him wrapped around her finger, no matter what he says, lol) in anyway other than what we've been talking about here...a a last resort and always with love.

Well, that's a relief. OK, I'll un-ignore him.

It's this topic...it always gets people fired up on both sides of the issue...and after you spend enough time defending yourself and your position on these forums, it's just really easy to get a little gunshy of those on the opposite side.

So it's not just me who's emotional. Also, right after my last post where I blasted A2J, I noticed, now wait a minute, that was a little out of proportion, something's not right in me...so I checked my blood sugar which was atmospheric. I always seem to blow up at my husband at those times. So I've "insulinated" myself, I'm calmer, we'll check my sugar again in about an hour. If I overreacted, A2J, I'm sorry.

Let's chill...this is the most polite spanking thread we've had in a while. Very refreshing.

Yes, please, I do want the tone to be polite. Let's try (and I'm talking to myself here) to attack the issue not each other.