Does a Holy God intend to punish sin ?

[Ceallaigh]

Is it only Reformed/Calvinist who do not hold this view or are there others out there too.

Oh well there's lots of latter day fringe spin-off doctrines out there. An aspect many have in common is that they're the specially enlightend chosen elect remnant. Which is appealing to the ego.

 

[d taylor]

Oh well there's lots of latter day fringe spin-off doctrines out there. An aspect many have in common is that they're the specially enlightend chosen elect remnant. Which is appealing to the ego.

I would have thought Catholics and other Orthodox beliefs would have not held that view. I hear from these groups a lot of talk about committing mortal sins that will send one to hell. Example a person (believer) who takes their own life, is said to have committed a mortal sin and will go to hell.

In reality though, i see anyone who applies the condition of repentance of sin, for eternal life salvation, must not believe all sin has been forgiven.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

It is plainly stated in The Bible, Jesus took away the sin of the world believers and unbelievers.

Not so.Did Jesus tell those Jews in Jn.8 do not worry, I have taken away all sin.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Does God who is Holy pour out His wrath?

Can God be said to be Holy if He does not pour out His Wrath upon all sin?

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.​

Why is the wrath of God revealed, God has revealed His nature to people, but some choose to suppress that nature, so they can go on in their sins.

God is not wrathful at the person who chooses to live rightly.

Rom 2:4-11 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.​

Note the above scripture, the hardness of man's heart builds up wrath in God.

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation
​

God renders to each of us according to our deeds.

who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath
​

We all may have a wrath tank, with which we have filled to a measure, but the grace of God has met each of us when it was at different levels. Some are more open to God's mercy than others. Now that we have received His mercy, God's image is being built in us as we follow Him. If God were to focus on our past he may feel wrath, yet "Love hopes all things":

Psa 103:9-14 He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever. He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, So the LORD pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.​

Praise God He focuses not on our past and does not keep His anger forever.

​

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Not so.Did Jesus tell those Jews in Jn.8 do not worry, I have taken away all sin.

Jesus has taken away every man's sin. But man must choose righteousness over sin. Who are the children of the devil? Those who desire sin more than truth.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.​

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
​

See the above order of salvation:

1. God gives His command, even the command of faith (John 6:29)
2. Man either loves the command or hates it
3. If a man loves the commandments God will come to that man, reveal Himself
4. If the man despises the grace and forbearance of God i.e loves his sins, his eyes remain closed.

 

[Lost4words]

Jesus also gave us the 'Our Father' prayer.

"Forgive us our sins"....

Also, He sent out the Apostles to forgive sins...

He didnt suffer and die so that we could not take responsibility for our sins!

We need to constantly ask for forgiveness as everybody sins / is a sinner.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I would have thought Catholics and other Orthodox beliefs would have not held that view. I hear from these groups a lot of talk about committing mortal sins that will send one to hell. Example a person (believer) who takes their own life, is said to have committed a mortal sin and will go to hell.

In reality though, i see anyone who applies the condition of repentance of sin, for eternal life salvation, must not believe all sin has been forgiven.

Those too have had spin-off doctrines over the centuries. Many can be pinned down to the year they emerged and or become official.

 

[d taylor]

Not so.Did Jesus tell those Jews in Jn.8 do not worry, I have taken away all sin.

Your going to have to give more direction to John 8 as to what you are pointing to, in saying did Jesus tell those Jews.

Are you speaking about the woman and the accusation of adultery.

But either way, seems like you do not understand what is meant by Jesus taking away the sin of the world. It is not saying that people are no longer sinners or that there are no consequence's to a person's sin. There is physical and mental consequence's to peoples sin, sin can even cause one to lose their life. Sin can even cause one to reject God, etc...but ones sin does not causes one to eventually end up in the lake of fire. They end up there because they never believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

What is meant by Jesus taking away the sin of the world is that, sin is not a factor in whether a person believes in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life or not.

That is why God can offer Eternal Life free to any person who wants Eternal Life. God's only condition is that a person must believe in The Messiah, The Son of God for Eternal Life. Sin or the repentance of sin is not a condition to receive Eternal Life.

Why because Jesus The Messiah took away the sin of the world. Even when unbelievers are judged, they are not judged for their sins. But for their works at the great white throne, sins are never brought up.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Not so.Did Jesus tell those Jews in Jn.8 do not worry, I have taken away all sin.

He hadn't been crucified and resurrected yet.

 

[chilehed]

Sin is its own punishment.

 

[John Caldwell]

Is it only Reformed/Calvinist who do not hold this view or are there others out there too.

I think it started in Calvinism.

 

[John Caldwell]

I think we are missing the elephant in the room.

If I steal a car I am punished. The crime being punished means am punished.

Calvinism depends on man being more powerful than God when it comes to sin. Men sin and create in God an obligation to punish that crime (even if not punishing the criminal).

It's like man is the master, sin is a ball, and God is the dog fetching the ball as its in His nature.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

I tend to take a different view on it to most people. I see it more as sin cannot exist in the presence of God so is kept separated from him. The greatest punishment in my eyes is no more than being kept separated from the perfect love of God and knowing what you are missing. The rest of it is little more than just making you think you could have been in the perfect love of God where the joy of being in His presence makes you want to cry out in worship, love and joy.

I like analogies, so this is how I might explain it to someone. Imagine, say, someone has a nuclear bunker and has it set up really nicely. They invite everyone they know to join them if its ever needed, but you think you know better and tell them you dont want anything to do with them and you dont believe in the bunker. The bunker owner accepts their decision and tells them they will abide by it as that is what they want.

Then one day the sirens go off but and you try to get in but they say away from me, you didnt want to know and I have filled it with people who did want to accept it. Then as the bombs fall and you burn in the fire you see through a window they are partying and having the time of their lives celebrating their being saved from the bombs. The regret you would feel would be like a tiny fraction of the regret people will feel when they realise they have been separated from God. That, to me, is their biggest punishment. And in my mind at least it shows how a loving God can punish sinners.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Jesus has taken away every man's sin. But man must choose righteousness over sin. Who are the children of the devil? Those who desire sin more than truth.

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.​

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
​

See the above order of salvation:

1. God gives His command, even the command of faith (John 6:29)
2. Man either loves the command or hates it
3. If a man loves the commandments God will come to that man, reveal Himself
4. If the man despises the grace and forbearance of God i.e loves his sins, his eyes remain closed.

Your order does not follow scripture.
You are constructing something that will never happen.Rom8:7

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Your going to have to give more direction to John 8 as to what you are pointing to, in saying did Jesus tell those Jews.

Are you speaking about the woman and the accusation of adultery.

But either way, seems like you do not understand what is meant by Jesus taking away the sin of the world. It is not saying that people are no longer sinners or that there are no consequence's to a person's sin. There is physical and mental consequence's to peoples sin, sin can even cause one to lose their life. Sin can even cause one to reject God, etc...but ones sin does not causes one to eventually end up in the lake of fire. They end up there because they never believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

What is meant by Jesus taking away the sin of the world is that, sin is not a factor in whether a person believes in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life or not.

That is why God can offer Eternal Life free to any person who wants Eternal Life. God's only condition is that a person must believe in The Messiah, The Son of God for Eternal Life. Sin or the repentance of sin is not a condition to receive Eternal Life.

Why because Jesus The Messiah took away the sin of the world. Even when unbelievers are judged, they are not judged for their sins. But for their works at the great white throne, sins are never brought up.

At the Great White Throne Judgment, the unbelievers will be cast into second death to be eternally punished.Each and every sin will be punished.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Being

I tend to take a different view on it to most people. I see it more as sin cannot exist in the presence of God so is kept separated from him. The greatest punishment in my eyes is no more than being kept separated from the perfect love of God and knowing what you are missing. The rest of it is little more than just making you think you could have been in the perfect love of God where the joy of being in His presence makes you want to cry out in worship, love and joy.

I like analogies, so this is how I might explain it to someone. Imagine, say, someone has a nuclear bunker and has it set up really nicely. They invite everyone they know to join them if its ever needed, but you think you know better and tell them you dont want anything to do with them and you dont believe in the bunker. The bunker owner accepts their decision and tells them they will abide by it as that is what they want.

Then one day the sirens go off but and you try to get in but they say away from me, you didnt want to know and I have filled it with people who did want to accept it. Then as the bombs fall and you burn in the fire you see through a window they are partying and having the time of their lives celebrating their being saved from the bombs. The regret you would feel would be like a tiny fraction of the regret people will feel when they realise they have been separated from God. That, to me, is their biggest punishment. And in my mind at least it shows how a loving God can punish sinners.

Being apart from God is an eternal punishment, but they will be punished for all their sins.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Sin is its own punishment.

A defiled conscience should serve as a major red flag.
A professed Christian who lies, then tells lies to attempt to cover the first lie should lose assurance that he is a believer.
When a person does it habitually it indicates they are caught in a maze of sin, then you see their thoughts become increasingly unstable.

 

[John Caldwell]

John 3:18–21 :He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Your order does not follow scripture.
You are constructing something that will never happen.Rom8:7

The order there is Jesus's words, why do you say it is not scripture, or will never happen? Look closely at it:

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

There is a distinct order:

1. God issues His command (the command of faith, among others)
2. We keep his command (the command to have faith and move away from our sins - repentance)
3. Because we keep His command (we have faith and a desire for repentance)
4. He reveals Himself to us (He comes and makes His home with us, gives us the Holy Spirit)

You quote:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
​

This does not mean a person can not respond to faith and repentance. It means that our natural desires control us without the Holy Spirit, and that is why we are encouraged to pray.

As Jesus said:

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."​

Let's look at the following scripture:

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasure. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

There is a choice here. God shows their sin. Commands them to return, but then there is a choice made by man that determines their destiny.

Even Cain was given a choice:

Gen 4:6-7 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."​

God is not a liar, Cain could have been saved.

Seeing we are in the OT at the moment consider:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.​

How were the OT saints saved? If they could not be subject to the law of God, without God's Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit was not given to them. It is clear to me there is a measure of obedience that we are capable of as humans. Measure enough for John 14:21 to say:

He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.​

 

[d taylor]

At the Great White Throne Judgment, the unbelievers will be cast into second death to be eternally punished.Each and every sin will be punished.

How can an unbeliever be punished for the sins Jesus has already died and paid the price for. I mean what happen to The Messiah was no joy ride.