Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

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Split Rock

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Where's the retaining wall for this local flood?

Elevation.
The Mediterranean Sea through the Bosphorus Straight.



It did, it increased the size of the Black Sea by 1/3.



Including the entire Mesopotamian region would be just as incorrect as including the entire world.

The Black Sea flood is another option some have championed. It isn't clear yet, however, how fast the Black Sea increased in size and if there were settlements around it that were destroyed. It is an intriguing possible origin for the flood story.
 
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The Mediterranean Sea through the Bosphorus Straight.
Can you show me the Mediterranean Sea → Black Sea flow, using documentation acceptable to scientists?

From Wikipedia, I get Mediterranean Sea → Aegean Sea → Sea of Marmara → Black Sea -- meaning this water flowed northward!
 
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The Black Sea flood is another option some have championed. It isn't clear yet, however, how fast the Black Sea increased in size and if there were settlements around it that were destroyed. It is an intriguing possible origin for the flood story.
That's another point I was going to address: the size of the Black Sea at the time.

It must have been a dinky lake that somehow acquired a sea basin.
 
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AgnosticShtick

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The Black Sea flood is another option some have championed. It isn't clear yet, however, how fast the Black Sea increased in size and if there were settlements around it that were destroyed. It is an intriguing possible origin for the flood story.


Would young earth creationists rather NOT have scientists confirm a likely Noah's flood of some 3500 years ago if that flood was clearly confined to one region?

Creationists hate science unless science discovers something which appears to help their cause. Then it is a big headline at Answers in Genesis.

So would a regional flood discovery of the right date, duration, and circumstances be good or bad in their view?

Of course, it wouldn't necessarily contradict the Bible. Only their interpretation of it.
 
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AgnosticShtick

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Noah's flood is a shadow of the flood that was responsible for plate tectonics. Lyell's uniformitarianism replaced the catastrophic theory. Darwin tried to adapt gradualism to his theory. That was popular until punctuated equilibrium was developed by Gould with Niles Eldredge. Still that does not change that a world flood could have caused Plate Tectonics. What is your theory for the mechanism if you reject the flood theory? Here is the story:

"All of a sudden, I saw the Father reach across space and break the water vapor shield and billions of gallons of water hit the earth. Wham! There went the one land mass, into many pieces, floating across the sea. Some of them overlapping upon each other and burying the dinosaurs between layers of earth. Some of the now new continents formed massive mountains, which at the same time caused deep valleys to form. The water kept coming, until all the earth was completely covered. Then God leaned forward again and blew onto the earth; immediately ice began to form over the surface of the waters and life stopped as the earth, covered in darkness, entered into the Ice Age!


The scene changed (millions of years later as the earth lie dormant under the ice) and I saw streaks of light come from Heaven and the Spirit of God was hovering over the frozen planet, waiting. Then I saw God lean forward and He blew upon the ice and instantly the earth was defrosted. Once again water covered the whole earth (Gen 1:2) and there was no land mass visible to the eye.

God spoke again and light was! It was so fantastic, as I watched God re-create the earth, different atmosphere, animals and even man, but eventually they sent me back down to earth. If you accept Christ and make it to Heaven; you can go to Creation Lab and see this too." Kat Kerr


No wonder that you and Toolman made the "Honorable Mentions" on YEC-Watch this week. (Toolman got nominated for his "Some mountains are under water so they can't be tectonic.")

Definitely worth the visit. This place is quite entertaining.
 
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AV1611VET

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Would young earth creationists rather NOT have scientists confirm a likely Noah's flood of some 3500 years ago if that flood was clearly confined to one region?
Scientists can keep their clipboards out of the Bible. They'll only make things worse for themselves.

Look what happened when Hubble "confirmed" the universe's expansion.

Now, anyone who says the Bible says the universe is expanding gets laughed at.

Scientists like to claim they are related to simians, but then what do they do?

They'll put a stepladder in a room, place a bunch of bananas on top of it, bring five apes into the room, and spray the ones at the foot of the ladder with a hose, when one of them goes up for the bananas; then tape them as they beat the snot out of the one that went up the ladder.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So how does a flood produce hundreds of feet of limestone at the peak of a mountain? How does that work?

The peaks remain unchanged. By the time water reaches any high peaks any substantial materials have already been deposited. Very little deposition occurs on any steep slopes.
 
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createdtoworship

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I asked a question about what you claimed or cited. So, is your response to everything now going to be, "that's a poisoning the well fallacy?"

you actually responded as if it was MY words, hence the reply "why would YOU say...."

regarding the erosion.

secondly, my ability to detect fallacy is simply a by product of being in hostile forums for a few years, it will grow on you too, just wait.
 
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createdtoworship

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Good point. The tides are another good example. Some beaches erode, some build up with sand, others remain unchanged.


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KWCrazy

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Would young earth creationists rather NOT have scientists confirm a likely Noah's flood of some 3500 years ago if that flood was clearly confined to one region?
What region?

For all the nonsense being spewed about a local flood, nobody has ever shown me a map of any region likely to have been inhabited by Noah in which the water could have covered the peak of even a single mountain without runoff into the sea preventing the water's rise.

There is no place on earth that could have happened. The localized flood nonsense is pure ignorance repeated by people desperate to have any explanation other than God's word.
Creationists hate science unless science discovers something which appears to help their cause. Then it is a big headline at Answers in Genesis.
Atheists hate puppies and kick them whenever they get the opportunity.
Agnostics perform medical experiments on cats just to be mean.
See, we can make baseless claims about other people as well.
We don't hate science. Unlike some, we understand that science is limited to the study of the physical world, and it is not a synonym for truth.
So would a regional flood discovery of the right date, duration, and circumstances be good or bad in their view?
Why is the flood such a point of contention with you? There are 332 other miracles listed in the Bible.
What part of "fifteen cubits above the mountains" can you not grasp?
Of course, it wouldn't necessarily contradict the Bible. Only their interpretation of it.
Blatant lie. Literal stories need no "interpretation." No less authority than Jesus affirmed that Noah was a real person, that the flood happened, and that the Scriptures were 100% true. I continue to ask for verses in the Scriptures that support the distortions of evolution believers, and for some reason they can never produce a single passage to support the lies they tell.
 
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Subduction Zone

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What region?

For all the nonsense being spewed about a local flood, nobody has ever shown me a map of any region likely to have been inhabited by Noah in which the water could have covered the peak of even a single mountain without runoff into the sea preventing the water's rise.

There is no place on earth that could have happened. The localized flood nonsense is pure ignorance repeated by people desperate to have any explanation other than God's word.

I will agree with you there. The idea of a local flood is pretty much busted.

Atheists hate puppies and kick them whenever they get the opportunity.

That is not true. And Christians enjoy killing kittens.

Agnostics perform medical experiments on cats just to be mean.

No, once again that is Christians. Atheists and agnostics love kittens and puppies.

See, we can make baseless claims about other people as well.
Oh, you admit those were baseless claims? Why don't you admit that whenever you try to make scientific claims?

We don't hate science. Unlike some, we understand that science is limited to the study of the physical world, and it is not a synonym for truth.

Yes, science is limited to studying the physical world. That is why we know there was no Noah's Flood, or the various other myths in Genesis. And yes you do hate science, though you do not want to admit it.


Why is the flood such a point of contention with you? There are 332 other miracles listed in the Bible.

It is one of the most obviously "miracles" that never happened.

What part of "fifteen cubits above the mountains" can you not grasp?

Strangely I agree with you on this point. The Bible claims that we had about 5 more miles in depth of water on the face of the Earth.
Blatant lie. Literal stories need no "interpretation." No less authority than Jesus affirmed that Noah was a real person, that the flood happened, and that the Scriptures were 100% true. I continue to ask for verses in the Scriptures that support the distortions of evolution believers, and for some reason they can never produce a single passage to support the lies they tell.

Yes, but that only adds evidence to the fact that Jesus was only a man.

Are you sure that you want to go in that direction? It seems a bit blasphemous to me.
 
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createdtoworship

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That is why we know there was no Noah's Flood, or the various other myths in Genesis.

eeehhem,

excuse me but,

were you there?

Did you see first hand that there was in fact no noahs flood?

In fact I see alot of erosional remnants like

devils peak
Devil T

and monument valley (being sandstone primarily would never last millions of years of erosion, and most likely have happened in a flash flood, a huge one)
sandstone would never leave (in other words) any type of erosional remnant after millions of years, it's impossible and is a very good indicator of a flood like catastrophy.

If these proofs don't probe your interest there are quite a few others to explore:

https://encrypted.google.com/search...gDIGliQKVlYDYBw&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=1236&bih=748

the evidence for a global flood is everywhere.

Noah__s_Ark___2min14sec_by_Sick_of_Misery.gif
 
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rikerjoe

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eeehhem,

excuse me but,

were you there?

Did you see first hand that there was in fact no noahs flood?

Excuse you but, neither were you. Did you see that there actually was a global flood and not just a local one?

We don't need to be there to know if there was a flood or not. Floods leaves tell tale signs when they happen and a global flood would do so across the globe.

In fact I see alot of erosional remnants like

devils peak
Devil T

and monument valley (being sandstone primarily would never last millions of years of erosion, and most likely have happened in a flash flood, a huge one)sandstone would never leave (in other words) any type of erosional remnant after millions of years, it's impossible and is a very good indicator of a flood like catastrophy.

That may be the case, but not for a global one.

the evidence for a global flood is everywhere.

No, the evidence for local floods are plenty, but so far none have been found for a global one. :doh:

Remember, for a global flood to have happened, all these signs of floods that you find in various location, have to have happened at the same time! Can you accomplish that?
 
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RickG

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The Black Sea flood is another option some have championed. It isn't clear yet, however, how fast the Black Sea increased in size and if there were settlements around it that were destroyed. It is an intriguing possible origin for the flood story.

Key phrase, "flood story", which goes back at least to the epic of Gilgamesh and probably has an earlier origin than that through story telling dating to the time of the Black Sea event.

I think the biblical flood story is an excellent teaching allegory that has some substance of reality, but not at all a real event as described in the Genesis account of it. Inventing explanations of a global flood and misrepresenting well known earth science to explain it just seems to circumvent the teachings and purpose of Christianity.
 
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RickG

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eeehhem,

excuse me but,

were you there?

Did you see first hand that there was in fact no noahs flood?

In fact I see alot of erosional remnants like

devils peak
Devil T

and monument valley (being sandstone primarily would never last millions of years of erosion, and most likely have happened in a flash flood, a huge one)
sandstone would never leave (in other words) any type of erosional remnant after millions of years, it's impossible and is a very good indicator of a flood like catastrophy.

If these proofs don't probe your interest there are quite a few others to explore:

https://encrypted.google.com/search...gDIGliQKVlYDYBw&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=1236&bih=748

the evidence for a global flood is everywhere.

Noah__s_Ark___2min14sec_by_Sick_of_Misery.gif

Grady, I honor you belief in a global flood as described in the bible and do not wish to change that belief. But good grief, the information you are providing as evidence has absolutely no basis in reality or how geologic processes work.
 
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createdtoworship

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Grady, I honor you belief in a global flood as described in the bible and do not wish to change that belief. But good grief, the information you are providing as evidence has absolutely no basis in reality or how geologic processes work.

wow, I mean wow.

I produce links with hundreds of sandstone erosional remnants, and this is all you can say in refute?

I must repeat (your phrase)

"good grief!"

btw check these out when you have time:

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=erosional+remnant&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=HaNNUdf0CqGoiALt7YCABA&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1236&bih=748#hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=erosional+remnants+of+sandstone&oq=erosional+remnants+of+sandstone&gs_l=img.3...64208.66831.0.67022.16.16.0.0.0.0.123.1363.13j3.16.0...0.0...1c.1.7.img.HjUgPFR2AsY&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44158598,d.cGE&fp=779a5fc4f3a8bf08&biw=1236&bih=748
 
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RickG

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wow, I mean wow.

I produce links with hundreds of sandstone erosional remnants, and this is all you can say in refute?

I must repeat (your phrase)

"good grief!"

btw check these out when you have time:

https://encrypted.google.com/search...98,d.cGE&fp=779a5fc4f3a8bf08&biw=1236&bih=748

Grady, those are examples of weathering, not flood erosion. If you wish to learn about the difference between terrestrial erosion and flood erosion I will be glad to explain the basics and direct you toward legitimate science links and published research.
 
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createdtoworship

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Grady, those are examples of weathering, not flood erosion. If you wish to learn about the difference between terrestrial erosion and flood erosion I will be glad to explain the basics and direct you toward legitimate science links and published research.

actually another innacuracy on your part,

look up erosional remnants

they are caused by floods, not weathering.

because of the fact there was not enough time for the erosion to complete. Or, they were resistant to so called "weathering." Which is why they remain.

but if you want to,

go ahead and explain the basics,

I obviously am at a loss, here.

lol

check out this def of erosional remnants:

Erosion Remnant

a topographic feature that remains after a highland region has been destroyed by exogenic factors. Three types of erosion remnants are distinguished: (1) degradation remnants, which are composed of rocks resistant to weathering and denudation; (2) mesas, which are table mountains that are the remaining parts of an earlier plateau; and (3) meander cores, which form when a river breaks through the neck of an incised meander and isolates a meander lobe.

(btw some of the pictures are mislabeled as erosional remnants....but thats what you get with google)
 
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createdtoworship

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Excuse you but, neither were you. Did you see that there actually was a global flood and not just a local one?

well the burden of proof always lies on the one making the statement.

We don't need to be there to know if there was a flood or not. Floods leaves tell tale signs when they happen and a global flood would do so across the globe.



That may be the case, but not for a global one.
as far as I can tell, there has not been ANY floods more than a 25 meters in northern wyoming.

Do you have any evidence of a 300 meter plus flood happening in north eastern wyoming?

in fact a wyoming pdf put out by homeland, has crook county flood damage at 25000 dollars or less, meaning....flooding is basically not a problem in that county.
http://wyohomelandsecurity.state.wy.us/Library/mit_plan/8_Flood.pdf

No, the evidence for local floods are plenty, but so far none have been found for a global one. :doh:

so where is the evidence for crook county flooding? Something that would cover devils tower (300m high)?

Remember, for a global flood to have happened, all these signs of floods that you find in various location, have to have happened at the same time! Can you accomplish that?

like I said in a previous post, using the strata to date floods has major flaws.

for example if a flood happened in the grand canyon right now, and at the same time on mount saint helens.

several strata would be exposed at the same time,

but we saw the event happen!

(but the strata tells the wrong story in this case).
 
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