Does a ceremony matter?

[GirlieGirl]

I don't mean to be critical, but if you are doing your own ceremony, how much would it put you out to be legally married in a more immediate fashion? It just seems to be a convenient way to circumvent the reality that we are supposed to be married before we have sex, not that our sexual relationship should define us as married......

Exxxactly.

 

[SirKenin]

Exxxactly.

Care to prove your point? That's what I was looking for..

 

[Jenna]

So you plan on living together "as man and wife" for as long as it takes to be legally viewed as such by your government without being sexually intimate and therefore committing fornication?

 

[SirKenin]

So you plan on living together "as man and wife" for as long as it takes to be legally viewed as such by your government without being sexually intimate and therefore committing fornication?

We plan on joining together and having the aforementioned ceremony to celebrate our union. That's the plan as it stands now.

 

[Cordy]

Hey fellow Canadian,
Living common law and being officially married are NOT considered the same thing by the Canadian government. People in common law may get SOME of the rights of a married couple, but the government does not consider people living together married.

A ceremony (and a legal certificate) are VERY important. How, when or where you want to achieve these things is personal, but as someone stated before, their function is very important for several reasons.

First, having an official ceremony of some sort (and I do consider JOP with a witness a ceremony) is a proclamation that you are married. This sets a foundation of protection for your marriage. If things get rough, you know that others have been there to witness your vows to each other and the government has it on record that you are bound to this person. If you don’t have a ceremony or legal marriage to support you, one can simply say “I am out of here, besides, we were not REALLY married anyway”.

Perhaps in the past, all that was needed to become married was woman accepting a man’s offer to “come into my tent”, but you have to put that in cultural context. If a couple did live together in this past context, it was considered marriage to both the couple and those around them. They were immediately bound to each other by their own decision and accountability to their society and legal system. Living together and marriage are NOT considered the same thing by our present society. People today view living together is a way to have sex before or without ever committing to the other person. I think attempting to live in this past tradition in the present is dangerous in today’s social fabric. How many kids, in the heat of the moment would decide, “hey, we can just have sex, and we will be married, and then it is allowed” – only to break up after the course of their relationship is over because they were not REALLY married? They know they are not really accountable to witnesses to their families or to the legal system, so they are off the hook.

Since marriage and common law are considered different things, how are others going this kind of relationship? If you are simply proclaiming yourself married after “consuming” the relationship, others will often think that you are just justifying sex without having to make the commitment done in a ceremony. Younger people who look up to you might decide that they could just start living together and pretending that is marriage – only to discover that this is not a reality in our society, and experience the heartache of splitting up after sharing the gift of sexuality which should be reserved only for the one they make a public commitment for life with.

The concept of a marriage ceremony (of various kinds) is there to protect you and your relationship before God and people. Why step out these bounds into dangerous waters that could compromise your relationship, the relationships of the young people around you, and perhaps even your testimony?

 

[Warrior Poet]

My ceremony will be more like a dinner theater non-traditional for sure. I will use everything from video, to slides, to music. Lots of speechs, dinner during the "show'. This will be a time to celebrate the union. However the day I propose is the day I will get down in my room and Thank God for his blessings and make my promise to Him, and to Him alone. Thats the day the forever starts. So does that mean I get to run off and have sex.... no. Does that mean I am legally married.... perhaps not I am not seeing the tax cut yet. Does that mean my promise to God and my soon to be wife less vaild.... HECK NO. The day I make the promise to Him only makes sense that be the day he recognizes the full committment. That day will have to come before the wedding day, cause it it waits till that day the I have been lying to myself, God, and my soon to be wife, about being ready and making that commitment.
Trying to scoot around the ceremony and rebellion, thats stuff people make up cause they they are scared to be different, or cant think for themselves. There is no "legal" way to get married according to the Bible i.e traditions, ceremony, witnesses. Christ didn't say there was, God didn't say there was. We are all different and we have an ideal wedding scenario, they dont all consist of a ceremony and to say God only recognizes a ceremony is silly, He recognizes the committment. The party is for show. If it counts at the JofP, or in church, even Vegas, that just shows the ceremony is second to the committment. Ill make my commitment when and where I please and when I am ready, I will make the committment public and celebrate that committment at some point, in a different way. DIFFERENT, only means wrong to ingnorance, especially in this case.

Warrior Poet

 

[GirlieGirl]

The concept of a marriage ceremony (of various kinds) is there to protect you and your relationship before God and people. Why step out these bounds into dangerous waters that could compromise your relationship, the relationships of the young people around you, and perhaps even your testimony?

Eloquent and to the point!

Marriage ceremonies, be it on the front hall footsteps or in a cathedral, are there to protect and announce the union.

Hmm, I see a lot of men wanting to aschew the ceremony here. Do you think gender differences are entering into this debate at all? In today's culture, it seems to be much more difficult to get men to commit and marry. I wonder if that attitude is carrying over in any way here.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Eloquent and to the point!

Marriage ceremonies, be it on the front hall footsteps or in a cathedral, are there to protect and announce the union.

Hmm, I see a lot of men wanting to aschew the ceremony here. Do you think gender differences are entering into this debate at all? In today's culture, it seems to be much more difficult to get men to commit and marry. I wonder if that attitude is carrying over in any way here.

You would think that if that were true the divorce rates would have dropped by now yes no? It seems to be not of the norm for the man to be that involved, most dont care and leave that up to the wife, its a chick thing. Good to see so many men taking an active role. In my case, if I get to do it agiain , I will play a role in the organization of it all, I missed out the first time. I wont again. A ceremnoy is fun, good times have you.... but thats not what marriage is about...... IMO I got to learn that and understand that, thats why it just doesn't mean as much to me, but that doesnt mean its not a great excuse to party hard for one night.
Untill Christian divorce rate is zero will I do things the way I am lead to, not the way someone on CF tells me to or tries to make me feel guilty for. IF that means making a promise in my room before God then so be it. I figure if I can keep as little "man" involved in my marriage the better off I am off. Tax breaks are nice, but they dont mean jack.

Warrior Poet

 

[SirKenin]

Yes, Poet.. You got it exactly.

If people knew what the Ceremony of the Roses was, or bothered to look it up, maybe people's outlook would change. It is a ceremony rich in symbolism, and as a whole symbolizes an eternal bond between two loving people, unbreakable. It is a ceremony every bit as serious as taking vows in a traditional "vanilla" sense, if not more so. We are infatuated with the idea. We have decided upon a date of six months from now.

God has not mandated a ceremony, nor a particular type. He has mandated a union between one man and one woman. Anything else is purely tradition. Whether we get tax breaks or not is immaterial as I have my own incorporated business. There are plenty of ways to get tax breaks when we need them. All the rights we need will be accorded to us as a "common-law" couple under the Law of the State.

We love each other deeply, perhaps far deeper than some who have chosen a ceremony before Church or State. We desire to demonstrate our special bond to each other even unto death. She is the Yin to my Yang. The sun/man and the moon/woman do not exist without the other, and fulfillment can not be reached alone. We are going to be making and celebrating our commitment not just before each other and God, but before a select few in the fashion that we both find defines our belief structure and lifestyle.

We couldn't be happier.

 

[Jenna]

No one is challenging your love for one another, drfeelgood. Like many folks have already said, it isn't the type of ceremony that we are discussing, just the need to make the joining legal. You could scream declarations of love while jumping out of an airplane for all I, or anyone else honestly cares. lol That is up to you to choose. All anyone is saying is that in the end, all of the paperwork should be signed. It has nothing to do with anyone's tradition, and everything to do with providing for your mate and susequent children. The bible speaks about doing what the law says, and if it says that you need so sign some papers to legitimize your marriage, what's the big deal?

Just as a side note: There's no marriage in heaven, so eternal bonds as spoken of in the C.o.R. are not Scriptural. The idea is touching and peachy, but doesn't seem to fit what the Word says.

 

[desi]

So long as you and your SO take it seriously specifics don't matter much. My wife and I were married by a judge with a small group of friends and relatives present, my step brothers marriage cost around $10,000 and he's in the process of divorce. Sometimes I wonder if big ceremonies are a bad idea.

 

[SirKenin]

No one is challenging your love for one another, drfeelgood. Like many folks have already said, it isn't the type of ceremony that we are discussing, just the need to make the joining legal. You could scream declarations of love while jumping out of an airplane for all I, or anyone else honestly cares. lol That is up to you to choose. All anyone is saying is that in the end, all of the paperwork should be signed. It has nothing to do with anyone's tradition, and everything to do with providing for your mate and susequent children. The bible speaks about doing what the law says, and if it says that you need so sign some papers to legitimize your marriage, what's the big deal?

Just as a side note: There's no marriage in heaven, so eternal bonds as spoken of in the C.o.R. are not Scriptural. The idea is touching and peachy, but doesn't seem to fit what the Word says.

The Law in Canada does not state that I have to sign a piece of paper to be wed. See what I mean? Maybe in all but thirteen (13) of the United States you have to, but not here in Canada.

I also understand that there is no bond beyond death, hence the reason that there will be no rose petals in our graves, except perhaps as a loving symbol of that which we had in life.

 

[Cordy]

If people knew what the Ceremony of the Roses was, or bothered to look it up, maybe people's outlook would change.

I did look it up, and read almost every site google gave me on it. Almost all those results were associated with wicca, paganism or dominant/submissive BDSM. I also read in some of these sites that this ceremony is not necessarily of marriage but of a commitment for a time (ie. as long as our love shall endure) and most sites said that it was not supposed to be public. From what I read, it doesn’t come off as a great Christian witness of a celebration joining two believers

Whether we get tax breaks or not is immaterial as I have my own incorporated business. There are plenty of ways to get tax breaks when we need them. All the rights we need will be accorded to us as a "common-law" couple under the Law of the State.

What is interesting is that you mention that that in Canada, one doesn’t have to sign anything to be considered married – yet you also admit that the government taxes those who are married and those who are living common law differently. There is an inconsistency here, and there is a reason why. I think it is because, despite what you say, common law is not considered married in Canada. If you want to be considered married, you have to sign the document. That is our legal system and our culture - created to protect you and your family. Why not just pay the few bucks and actually marry (any way you want) rather then try to explain the conundrum of how you are both common law but married at the same time?

What I also find interesting is how those who support the decision to not do the “traditional” marriage thing (ie. legally get married in some kind before God) say that those who don’t agree can’t think for ourselves – as if we are part of some mass majority here. Take a look around – common law is the thing to do! Almost everyone does it before or in lieu of marriage. Thinking that one needs to be married in order to actually live “married” is not popular, and individuals who live this life have to learn to think and reason for themselves against the messages of the mass media and sin of the world.

 

[SoldierofChrist]

The Bible tells us to obey the authorities that He has placed over us. In regards to marriage, if getting a license is required to be married where you reside, then that is obeying the authorities. If you live together before you are married, you ARE NOT MARRIED. I don't care if you had sex or not, that's fornication. Even if a marriage license was $100, is that not worth it so that you will be clean before God? There needs to be witnesses. There is no lone-ranger Christianity. It's not something two individuals can do in secrecy. Common law requires a certain amount of time pass before it's effective, therefore you are not married until that time has passed... therefore you are living in sin if you live together and have a sexual relationship. It's that simple.

Follow the cultural norms, get a license... and provide witnesses. That way you will be married in God's eyes.

Peace

 

[SirKenin]

I did look it up, and read almost every site google gave me on it. Almost all those results were associated with wicca, paganism or dominant/submissive BDSM. I also read in some of these sites that this ceremony is not necessarily of marriage but of a commitment for a time (ie. as long as our love shall endure) and most sites said that it was not supposed to be public. From what I read, it doesn’t come off as a great Christian witness of a celebration joining two believers

A "vanilla" wedding has it's roots in paganism. After all, everything else does, including Christmas. Does that all of a sudden rule out the wedding ceremony? Ours has nothing to do with paganism, and it's not a "while our love lasts" type of commitment. I don't agree with those few sites about the length of commitment, according to my understanding and research, but I would have to read them for myself. As a matter of fact, some believe the bond lasts even beyond the grave, although I do not concur with that for obvious reasons.

Btw, thanks a million for reading up on it. That says a lot to me right there.

What is interesting is that you mention that that in Canada, one doesn’t have to sign anything to be considered married – yet you also admit that the government taxes those who are married and those who are living common law differently. There is an inconsistency here, and there is a reason why. I think it is because, despite what you say, common law is not considered married in Canada. If you want to be considered married, you have to sign the document. That is our legal system and our culture - created to protect you and your family. Why not just pay the few bucks and actually marry (any way you want) rather then try to explain the conundrum of how you are both common law but married at the same time?

I actually don't know what the current tax law is in Canada. It changes annually. The last time I filed for a joint common-law return, though, we filed jointly as a married couple. However, my point was that even if that law has since changed, which I doubt, I don't need the tax breaks associated with it.

What I also find interesting is how those who support the decision to not do the “traditional” marriage thing (ie. legally get married in some kind before God) say that those who don’t agree can’t think for ourselves – as if we are part of some mass majority here.

I never said that?? And who says it's sin? God doesn't. Isn't He the One to define sin? I'm not even disobeying the laws of the land?

 

[SirKenin]

Interestingly enough, I just found out yesterday that my uncle in California was also wed by the Ceremony of the Roses. Cool

 

[Jenna]

Yeah, it's not the ceremony that is the problem. Personally, I think it is beautiful. *makes foo-foo dreamy eyes* My only contention is that if you are not viewed as married in the eyes or your government at the time that you consumate your relationship, that is fornication, which is spoken against powerfully in the Bible.

 

[SirKenin]

Yes, it's a beautiful ceremony.

 

[Archivist]

The Bible tells us to obey the authorities that He has placed over us. In regards to marriage, if getting a license is required to be married where you reside, then that is obeying the authorities. If you live together before you are married, you ARE NOT MARRIED. I don't care if you had sex or not, that's fornication. Even if a marriage license was $100, is that not worth it so that you will be clean before God? There needs to be witnesses. There is no lone-ranger Christianity. It's not something two individuals can do in secrecy. Common law requires a certain amount of time pass before it's effective, therefore you are not married until that time has passed... therefore you are living in sin if you live together and have a sexual relationship. It's that simple.

Follow the cultural norms, get a license... and provide witnesses. That way you will be married in God's eyes.

Peace

Actually the requirements for a Common Law marriage vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Where I live the only requirement is that you live together and hold yourselves out to be husband and wife. There is no time requirement.

 

[DaveKerwin]

A marriage ceremony doesn't fit into my current belief structure or fulfill our desires to be honest.

In this life, it's not about YOUR preferences, it is about obedience to God. I do not see anything you are saying to show a heart of obedience. The only thing I see in your posts is rebellion to the law of God. You just want to do what you want to do, and not even God's word stops you. Of course you will post back and say how God's word is not direct enough for you to follow it, pitiful man, just pitiful.


By the way, is this girlfriend of yours a believer in Christ? Best I can remember God's word does not apply to that either?