Does a ceremony matter?

[SirKenin]

My biggest concern in your lack of regard for an official ceremony of some sort taking place is in 1 Corinthians 8. You have liberty to believe that this union is legit. BUT, if your union causes others to stumble then a serious problem exists. When we love others, our freedom should be less important to us than strengthening the faith of our brothers and sisters in Christ. Peace to you.

That is the first interesting, relevant Biblical fact that may provide a contradiction to my beliefs I think I've read in this thread, and worthy of consideration. I was looking for facts. Finally one has been provided and I thank you for that.

Would it cause my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble here in Canada, do you suppose? If so, in which way by your estimation?

As far as venom? I'm just not interested in a traditional ceremony. Not at all. I see little use for a piece of paper as well. It's clearly meaningless, as evidenced by divorce statistics. I'm going through one myself. I can attest to this fact.

Also, as a result, I have extensive experience with the Family Law Act. I have helped other people through their circumstances as well, and haven't lost a battle yet. I tell you the piece of paper is absolutely meaningless. It only protects your interests upon dissolution. That's it. I'm not concerned with dissolution. If Wwe do end up seperating however, Heaven forbid, then I think my SO should justly get half the assets and half the debts Wwe accumulated during Oour union. I don't need the Family Law Act to tell me that.

 

[SirKenin]

You are the only one, besides WP and a few others, who thinks that marriage ceremonies aren't necessary in this thread (oh and what does that tell you if 95% of christian people who responded in this thread say a marriage ceremony is necessary...it seems like your opinion in the minority...what does that tell you....).

That tells me, as evidenced by a lack of Biblical evidence, that many people are caught up in right-wing religious dogma without having the facts to back up their beliefs. Sunday school did wonders in brainwashing them, I think. I don't function that way. I tend to think for myself and write detailed eisegesis based upon hours and hours of personal study and soul searching. I find my own faith, as mandated by the Bible.

Part of a marriage ceremony is inviting all your friends and family to hear you and your fiancee exchange vows and witness you LEGALLY become husband and wife.

Well I kind of gathered that. I was married once too. Even pagans think that a wedding is a good time for symbolism and parties. What's your point?

The Ceremony of the Roses provides for vows exchanged before witnesses, so what makes your ceremony right and mine wrong?

And one more thing Doc, she will be your COMMON LAW WIFE not your wife because you are NOT married. I

So what?

 

[SoldierofChrist]

Drfeelgood, you have clearly made up your mind far before coming into this thread. Your decision will never be affected by anything anyone says on here, and that's fine. You, along with the rest of us are entitled to your opinion. This discussion has become fruitless and pointless. When two sides have their opinions and are set on defending them, they will not be swayed by a discussion on a message board. Your decision will only be judged by God and your conscience. I just pray you make the right decision based solely on God's Word and not yourself, or anyone else. May God show you the truth in this matter.

 

[mina]

Why was this thread started if your mind was already made up and you knew which people were going to respond here to you?

 

[SirKenin]

Why was this thread started if your mind was already made up and you knew which people were going to respond here to you?

It started with an honest question, but the more I realized that people had no solid foundation for their beliefs, my mind has pretty much been made up.

I'm like the Courts. I want facts. That's the way I think. I'm not interested in conjecture, ridicule, hypothesis' and trying to drag the whole thing off topic with questions of my love's faith.

It is now in my best estimation that the facts clearly indicate a piece of paper is not mandated either by the Bible or the Government of Canada. The facts also appear to indicate that the type of ceremony is of no consequence.

Therefore, pending the outcome of my dialogue with Selune I now know in which direction I'm going to head, and my SO agrees with my position.

 

[mina]

Wasn't there a very similar thread like this one a while back? and pretty much the same major posters in that one responded in this one. and the same conclusion was reached. I just don't understand the point. I mean if y ou are secure in your descion then why come here and ask people to question it? I knew when i read this, who mostly was going to respond to this thread. I'm not trying to ridicule. I just honestly wonder. It's not like you know anyone here. Wouldn't this question be best discussed with a pastor or someone that has studied Biblical times and customs and language? that's whose advice I would seek if I was faced with this question. Because as we have seen in the similar thread and now this one, it ends up people using thier opinions and sarcasm and things get pretty heated and insulting. And no one's viewpoint was changed, but lots of ugliness was shown. JMO sorry if that offended anyone.

 

[DaveKerwin]

I'm like the Courts. I want facts. That's the way I think. I'm not interested in conjecture, ridicule, hypothesis' and trying to drag the whole thing off topic with questions of my love's faith.

You are not interested because you don't want to admit you are wrong. Especially about the fact that you plan on cohabitating with an unbelieving girlfriend. You are afraid of being exposed.

I knew all along you were all about YOU, this whole thing where you pretend to care what the Bible is saying, is a fraud. You only care when the Bible says somethign convenient to your preferred lifestyle. We both know this is true. Your approach to this wanna-be-marriage is the same, you only will agree with what you prefer to live by, NOT what the Bible speaks towards.

If you cared about the Bible, you would not willingly enter into a "marriage" with an unbeliever. IF you cared about what the Bible said, you would treat the holy union of marriage with a little more respect. Surely God does not approach us (his bride), the same way you approach marriage with your girlfriend!!!!!!!

Here is your problem that you are blind to: You decide on a lifestyle, then try to make the word of God fit into it. It should be the other way around where you find the lifestyle that God wants us to live, then conform your life to THAT! Your approach to following God is completely skewed.

 

[selune]

That is the first interesting, relevant Biblical fact that may provide a contradiction to my beliefs I think I've read in this thread, and worthy of consideration. I was looking for facts. Finally one has been provided and I thank you for that.

Would it cause my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble here in Canada, do you suppose? If so, in which way by your estimation?

As far as venom? I'm just not interested in a traditional ceremony. Not at all. I see little use for a piece of paper as well. It's clearly meaningless, as evidenced by divorce statistics. I'm going through one myself. I can attest to this fact.

Also, as a result, I have extensive experience with the Family Law Act. I have helped other people through their circumstances as well, and haven't lost a battle yet. I tell you the piece of paper is absolutely meaningless. It only protects your interests upon dissolution. That's it. I'm not concerned with dissolution. If Wwe do end up seperating however, Heaven forbid, then I think my SO should justly get half the assets and half the debts Wwe accumulated during Oour union. I don't need the Family Law Act to tell me that.

Here's the way in which I think you could cause someone (in Canada or otherwise) to stumble: To you the piece of paper seems to be mere beauracratic stuff. However there are many who consider that paper to be patr of the bigger picture, a visual/legal/tangible aspect showing their commitment. Yes there are divorces, but I believe that those people would have split up regardless of the paper. Other brothers and sisters in Christ may view your union and think that they can do this too without the profound commitment to the other person. That piece of paper may have been something that signified more to them than they realized. If their union dissolved because they felt that they weren't truly bound, that'd be a stumbling block created by this idea. Because marriage is such a public thing this isn't like ay drinking alcohol where you could do it in private and not cause a stumblnig block for your neighbor.

Now, I think the ceremony of the roses is pretty. I looked it up and was wondering what is incompatible with having that ceremony and having the legal paperwork too? Have the roses as your wedding ceremony and have the paperwork done too.

 

[DaveKerwin]

The reason I speak out against this teaching about "marriage" is the same reason about people stumbling. Someone young in the faith will read this and be lead astray.

feel good, i honestly do not hate you, I just cannot deal with the teachings you bring here. I see them as abusive towards the body, the scriptures, and the christian message to the world.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Those who cohabit are much more likely to wind up in divorce than those who get a certificate of marriage. You are declaring before state, family, and church your intentions and your commitment. That's the point here, and that's the point found in Scripture. There are no 'secret marriages' recorded in Scripture.

Hmmm.... I would like to see that statistic... i don't disagree... but I would like to see it none the less.... I married so I would not "fornicate"... i didn't even care what God thought (how do you like that, my own "morals" would not me live any other way)..... I am divorced now so....yeah. That maybe the point here... but you will have to point me where thats biblical, that this declaration must be made public...thats what the ceremony is. You left out declaring that in front of God as well, go figure.... perhaps thats the real problem people worry about the state, witness and church their promise to God is less tangible and therefore less of an issue... I see that AS THE ISSUE. I see the Doc focusing on the right aspect of marriage, Gods input. His approach could be tuned... but thats not my say.
Others have said the ceremony is whatever you make it or dont make it.... that the only unanimous point here....thats all 100% christians here think like that. There is no right ceremony to make a marriage valid. There is no wrong ceremony either. YOU DONT NEED ONE IF YOU DONT WANT ONE..... this doesn't take away from the marriage certificate everyone LOVES SO MUCH.... that little pice of paper makes you feel all squishy inside thats sad IMO.,.... very said. It takes away from the marriage if there is no ceremony? Why cause you can see it? Touch it? Smell it? Is God the Center of the marriage or not... if you say yes then why has hardly anyone picked up on the fact that this is a religious bond and promise comprised by two people and validated to God and by God.... thats the only validation should mean anything to a christian. Marriage is Gods gift to us not the governments. If all the emphasis lies on the governments validation then let that persons marriage be blessed by the state but don't drag God in when you need Him.
CEREMONY DOES NOT EQUAL MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE..... how is that not blatantly obvious... the LAW OF LAND REQUIRES A CERTIFICATE NOT A CERTAIN PARTY.... thats the point here. I know several people who aquired these with no ceremony and their witness was someone they didn't even know. While numerous times I have said the paper is a must have in this country.... being hung up on that paper is what I am rebelling against..... not against just plain getting it. So yes I will take option B Belle.
If what the state thinks about your marriage means so much to you... pray to the state to bless it pray to the state to help you through rough emotional times... pray to the state when you kids are born and thank them for their gift to you.... assemble at the local courthouse every sunday and worship them...... thats EXACTLY what everyone seems to be making this out to be ..... validation of the state means more then Gods validation of the promise. If you think otherwise then on pure principal you agree with the Doc.... just not on his methodology.

Thats it Im done. You are right mina, we have done this before.

Warrior Poet

 

[SirKenin]

Here's the way in which I think you could cause someone (in Canada or otherwise) to stumble: To you the piece of paper seems to be mere beauracratic stuff. However there are many who consider that paper to be patr of the bigger picture, a visual/legal/tangible aspect showing their commitment. Yes there are divorces, but I believe that those people would have split up regardless of the paper. Other brothers and sisters in Christ may view your union and think that they can do this too without the profound commitment to the other person. That piece of paper may have been something that signified more to them than they realized. If their union dissolved because they felt that they weren't truly bound, that'd be a stumbling block created by this idea. Because marriage is such a public thing this isn't like ay drinking alcohol where you could do it in private and not cause a stumblnig block for your neighbor.

They can though, that's the thing. I don't think there's any facts in the Bible or in Canadian Law that prevents a fellow brother or sister to do the same thing. Sleep together casually and what not.. well.. that's something entirely different. If I would cause someone to do that, I would have to reconsider my position to be certain.

Apart from that, if I don't view it as a stumbling block, nobody can offer any type of facts that it's a stumbling block or against the Bible or Canadian Law. If I was in the USA or many other countries, I can easily see how it would be a problem. However, seeing as how I'm in Canada, where do you see the problem lying?

Do you see how I'm getting back to my original dilemna? I hear what you are saying, and your logic for saying so, but can you offer me the facts to back it up, apart from perhaps encouraging people to fornicate (that is, as I see it, a big problem. I never thought of it that way until now).

Now, I think the ceremony of the roses is pretty. I looked it up and was wondering what is incompatible with having that ceremony and having the legal paperwork too? Have the roses as your wedding ceremony and have the paperwork done too.

Isn't it though? Wwe love the mere thought of it, and are really looking forward to it. Is the paperwork incompatible? No, to answer your question it is not.

 

[SoldierofChrist]

You keep saying there is no biblical evidence against common-law marriage. I think there is an excellent example of what Jesus’ opinion was of those living together outside of traditional marriage. You keep 'claiming' to follow God and not the government, etc... etc... Well, show me in the Scriptures that it says we can freely ignore the government and follow our own desires? Especially when the government is not directly in contradiction with Scripture... and in fact, Scripture commands obedience to authority because God established that authority. If the authority over us says we need a piece of paper to be considered married, we need that piece of paper. It goes beyond being a stumbling block to other believers and even being a testimony of obedience to unbelievers, it goes right to the throne of God, being in obedience to His Word.



Jesus’ encounter with the Samaritan woman is one story I believe we all know quite well. Yet sometimes we miss key details found in Scripture in just a casual reading or study. If anything taught me how to open my eyes and observe the details in Scripture, it was my Biblical Hermeneutics class.



John 4:16-18



16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17"I have no husband," she replied.
18Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."



Jesus informs this woman that she has had 5 husbands… obviously referring to the fact that she has lived and had sexual relations with 5 different men. Now she is living with one particular man, again, outside of the understanding of marriage of the day. In biblical times, there was a contract… a statement of intent whether verbal or written, most likely verbal in front of witnesses. The parables Jesus spoke of such as the Ten Virgins, The Marriage of the Kings Son, and The Wedding Garment all refer to marriage happening at a specific time and place, with the involvement of others.



Further, throughout the Bible we see God’s many covenants with His people. This is how He dealt with them, and we see this today especially in the New Covenant. The Church is the bride of Christ, those that the Father has given the Son… spotless, clean, and perfect. This is why marriage is so holy, because it is a symbol of this union between the Lord Jesus Christ and His bride, the Church. Paul treated the subject in Ephesians 5… showing that marriage is not a joke to be trifled with.



I think everyone else here has pretty much hit the nail on the head. You are just trying to avoid a commitment. I don’t know if your fiancée… girlfriend, whatever you wish to call her is a believer, and if not, you are already violating the biblical principle of not being equally yoked. The reason why you are being taken to account here so fiercely is because you consider yourself a believer and you are openly violating the Word of God. You have been shown right here in this very post and in all these others that you are willing and ready to choose to freely violate God’s Word and make up several excuses in the process to try and “cover your back” You aren’t fooling anyone here and above all else you aren’t fooling God. God will not be mocked.



Sir, I suggest that you look over yourself and think about who you want to please the most. Yourself? Your girlfriend? Or are you going to make up your mind to sacrifice your desires at the altar in favor of pleasing God and living by His Word?

 

[SirKenin]

Wasn't there a very similar thread like this one a while back? and pretty much the same major posters in that one responded in this one. and the same conclusion was reached. I just don't understand the point. I mean if y ou are secure in your descion then why come here and ask people to question it? I knew when i read this, who mostly was going to respond to this thread. I'm not trying to ridicule. I just honestly wonder. It's not like you know anyone here. Wouldn't this question be best discussed with a pastor or someone that has studied Biblical times and customs and language? that's whose advice I would seek if I was faced with this question. Because as we have seen in the similar thread and now this one, it ends up people using thier opinions and sarcasm and things get pretty heated and insulting. And no one's viewpoint was changed, but lots of ugliness was shown. JMO sorry if that offended anyone.

I don't remember the other thread, but I do see a select few in this thread unable to contain themselves, as the moderator has handily pointed out. It makes it a special challenge to weed out the relevant portions from the rest I think I've done pretty good so far. The good Doctor has restrained himself. Hai, there's a first for everything.

My father is a minister, and has studied ancient history, Greek and Hebrew in great detail. This is where my interest comes in I think. Some may not agree with my conclusions, but then again, I'm neither a fundamentalist right-winger or a liberal left-winger, nor do I believe in taking the Bible out of context or little bits and pieces of Bible verses to suit my fancy. I believe in objectively looking at the Bible in context while seeking my faith.

 

[SirKenin]

You keep saying there is no biblical evidence against common-law marriage. I think there is an excellent example of what Jesus’ opinion was of those living together outside of traditional marriage. You keep 'claiming' to follow God and not the government, etc... etc... Well, show me in the Scriptures that it says we can freely ignore the government and follow our own desires? Especially when the government is not directly in contradiction with Scripture... and in fact, Scripture commands obedience to authority because God established that authority. If the authority over us says we need a piece of paper to be considered married, we need that piece of paper.

Jeepers. How many times do we have to go over this? My Government says no such thing. Therefore your statements have no basis in fact.

Jesus’ encounter with the Samaritan woman is one story I believe we all know quite well. Yet sometimes we miss key details found in Scripture in just a casual reading or study. If anything taught me how to open my eyes and observe the details in Scripture, it was my Biblical Hermeneutics class.

John 4:16-18



16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17"I have no husband," she replied.
18Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."



Jesus informs this woman that she has had 5 husbands… obviously referring to the fact that she has lived and had sexual relations with 5 different men. Now she is living with one particular man, again, outside of the understanding of marriage of the day. In biblical times, there was a contract… a statement of intent whether verbal or written, most likely verbal in front of witnesses. The parables Jesus spoke of such as the Ten Virgins, The Marriage of the Kings Son, and The Wedding Garment all refer to marriage happening at a specific time and place, with the involvement of others.

This does not mean that she was living with them at all. That is an assumption you have made. It could easily mean she had and divorced five husbands and that she now has a boyfriend that she is sleeping with? How do you take it they are living together? There are no facts to back up your conclusion. Again, where are the facts?

Further, throughout the Bible we see God’s many covenants with His people. This is how He dealt with them, and we see this today especially in the New Covenant. The Church is the bride of Christ, those that the Father has given the Son… spotless, clean, and perfect. This is why marriage is so holy, because it is a symbol of this union between the Lord Jesus Christ and His bride, the Church. Paul treated the subject in Ephesians 5… showing that marriage is not a joke to be trifled with.

Mere tradition, nothing more. Just an excuse to soak thousands of dollars out of two lovers and their families. Wedding gifts. Cake.. Suits.. Halls.. Pomp and circumstance. All a money pit, with no basis in Biblical fact. As a matter of fact, all of that stuff has it's basis in paganism.. Is that what you want to promote, because you're doing a good job of it.

A marriage certificate is not holy at all. Pure speculation, with no basis in fact. Your fascination with marriage certificates is pure legalism. Bureaucratic nonsense is what a license is. If anything, according to your beliefs, it lines the pockets of the State and satisfies a legalist, worldly point of view. It doesn't even fulfill Canadian Law. Who was it in the Bible that spoke out against legalism, likening legalists to Pharisees? I remember taking this up with Dave once before.

I think everyone else here has pretty much hit the nail on the head. You are just trying to avoid a commitment. I don’t know if your fiancée… girlfriend, whatever you wish to call her is a believer, and if not, you are already violating the biblical principle of not being equally yoked. The reason why you are being taken to account here so fiercely is because you consider yourself a believer and you are openly violating the Word of God. You have been shown right here in this very post and in all these others that you are willing and ready to choose to freely violate God’s Word and make up several excuses in the process to try and “cover your back” You aren’t fooling anyone here and above all else you aren’t fooling God. God will not be mocked.

Being equally yoked has nothing to do with a husband and wife. This is a common misconception. It has everything to do with the church and idolaters. Please don't drag that into this discussion, as it is irrelevant.

You clearly have no clue what the Ceremony of the Roses is.. You are making a commitment unto death. So.. I find your statement not only offensive, but baseless.

I'm not trying to fool anyone. What I see here are a bunch of people trying to fill me with factless, baseless, fundamentalist dogma. It might have worked on them, but it doesn't work on me.

I think next time I'll keep my questions to myself, and take it up with my dad, who knows his facts and isn't the type to fire out of context Bible Bullets and legalism at people.

This thread was a mistake. Mina was right.

 

[OracleX]

Thread closed.