Does a ceremony matter?

[Cordy]

In my country, you can live together and be considered married...

Where did you get this idea from? I believe this statement is incorrect.

I have already mentioned so twice in this thread, yet you never provided any evidence otherwise. Our government recognizes you as a couple from a common law relationship - but NOT married.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Soldier:
Customizing scripture??.... thats Daves forte "The Partial Verse King"... I was talking about the ceremony. Customizing THAT. This said a "ceremony neccessary??".... I said no..cause its not. Apparently you agree. I even at one point encourged the Doc to just get the stupid piece of paper, thats what everyone is worked up over. Davie and you both conveintly skipped that part.... good Davie, good Soldier.*shakes head*(WP miss the rolling eyes)
See that little piece of paper means nothing.... you know why cause here in this great nation you can get another stupid piece of paper and ends the whole thing. But the kicker that stupid little piece of paper to end it all.... is not validified in Christ's eyes.... so why is the piece that joins, he cares about the promise made and the promise broken, that promise sits in a triangle..... wife, husband, God. You think the government gives a care about your promise... cause they dont. Its the promise and the committment in and to God and your spouse.... while Mr. Kerwin likes to talk about rebelling... he simply, and others apparently too... are missing the larger picture IMO. I agree with the statement if the Church does not see you as married.... then you are not, a very valid point, though you can always change church's... as for the government.... whatever. They are for wrath and vengence.... Paul says so... they are not for validating Gods commands and requirement for marriage, GODS mind you(Christs literal words). Nor would I ever want them to hold that power. Thats why Church and State SHOULD ALWAYS be separate.

I guess the other part here... my wife is going to have a HUGE say in all this... no doubt the woman I marry, if ever, will see our marriages' validity through the eyes of God not the law.. but we will both enjoy the tax break... CANCUN HONEY!!!!!.... if she doesn't, I guess I wont be getting married . Your wife thinks just like you Davie... traditional, ceremony, thats the stuff that solidifies it. Doc and his lady think a like. And after reading the Common-Law thing... well... its his Law of the Land. As far as being sinful.... I don't see The Law of the Land argument holding water in this case... another approach maybe.... but then again like others said just get the paper if thats the case. I was never against that.
Personally I wouldn't and wont take Doc's route.... its just not me. Im not the Doc.
I still agree with the principal of what he is saying.Traditional ceremonies are so boring.... and so are traditional receptions.

Warrior Poet

 

[Whitestone]

I have a question would a Christian pastor consider the Ceremony of Rose a form of a marriage, hence making it a marriage in the eyes of God?

Whitestone

 

[Warrior Poet]

I think only a christian pastor could answer that..right.... I dont know of any that are on the forum. Ill ask mine and you ask yours.... if one of them will and the other wont... ones not a christian pastor then.

Warrior Poet

 

[SoldierofChrist]

Look, bud. I could care less about the ceremony. I'm not even talking about you, I was speaking of drfeelgood. It makes no difference if you have a ceremony or elope and get a certificate from a justice of the peace.

The law of the land does hold up. God placed government to keep order and stability. If you disagree with that statement, you need to read the Bible. You still aren't getting the point. Common law is not in effect until a certain time has passed. What do you consider this couple who hasn't been declared married by the state who is living together? Are they considered married by the family? By the church? By the government? If you can't say yes to all these, you have a problem... just because two people have sex does not a married couple make. If so, we have little kids who are 12 years old getting 'married' every day. Do you consider them married? God placed authority over us so we submit to it so that justice and order is maintained. If the law says you aren't married until after 6 months of living together, then guess what... you aren't married. It's so convenient just to move in together, well... it's also a fact that these couples who live together before marriage usually don't stay together.

I'd ask drfeelgood if he calls his 'lady' his wife? Could he honestly write down on a legal document that yes, he is married, and yes his wife is so-and-so? I don't think so. God is higher than government, no doubt. Yet God also calls us to a high standard which includes being obedient to the authority over us. (See Hebrews 13) Yeah your right, it is a piece of paper given out by an athiestic society. However there really is no excuse not to just go out and get that piece of paper. Is there a statement of intent by both parties? An official commitment before a witness? With two people living together, no one really knows. To fight a poor testimony and an ambiguous understanding, Christians should just be in submission to their authority and get recognized by the government.

Those who cohabit are much more likely to wind up in divorce than those who get a certificate of marriage. You are declaring before state, family, and church your intentions and your commitment. That's the point here, and that's the point found in Scripture. There are no 'secret marriages' recorded in Scripture. It's so easy to walk away from a relationship where you aren't even considered married by the state. I think it's too dangerous and unwise to cohabit just long enough that you're considered married. You are much better off following the biblical example of obedience to authority as well as making sure your commitment is shown to all those around you, whether it be a public ceremony or getting a marriage license. I think all else is needless rebellion.

 

[Archivist]

Look, bud. I could care less about the ceremony. I'm not even talking about you, I was speaking of drfeelgood. It makes no difference if you have a ceremony or elope and get a certificate from a justice of the peace.

The law of the land does hold up. God placed government to keep order and stability. If you disagree with that statement, you need to read the Bible. You still aren't getting the point. Common law is not in effect until a certain time has passed. What do you consider this couple who hasn't been declared married by the state who is living together? Are they considered married by the family? By the church? By the government? If you can't say yes to all these, you have a problem... just because two people have sex does not a married couple make. If so, we have little kids who are 12 years old getting 'married' every day. Do you consider them married? God placed authority over us so we submit to it so that justice and order is maintained. If the law says you aren't married until after 6 months of living together, then guess what... you aren't married. It's so convenient just to move in together, well... it's also a fact that these couples who live together before marriage usually don't stay together.

I'd ask drfeelgood if he calls his 'lady' his wife? Could he honestly write down on a legal document that yes, he is married, and yes his wife is so-and-so? I don't think so. God is higher than government, no doubt. Yet God also calls us to a high standard which includes being obedient to the authority over us. (See Hebrews 13) Yeah your right, it is a piece of paper given out by an athiestic society. However there really is no excuse not to just go out and get that piece of paper. Is there a statement of intent by both parties? An official commitment before a witness? With two people living together, no one really knows. To fight a poor testimony and an ambiguous understanding, Christians should just be in submission to their authority and get recognized by the government.

Those who cohabit are much more likely to wind up in divorce than those who get a certificate of marriage. You are declaring before state, family, and church your intentions and your commitment. That's the point here, and that's the point found in Scripture. There are no 'secret marriages' recorded in Scripture. It's so easy to walk away from a relationship where you aren't even considered married by the state. I think it's too dangerous and unwise to cohabit just long enough that you're considered married. You are much better off following the biblical example of obedience to authority as well as making sure your commitment is shown to all those around you, whether it be a public ceremony or getting a marriage license. I think all else is needless rebellion.

I will take issue with one thing that you have said. The requirements for Common Law marriage vary from jurisdiction to jurisduction. You cannot make blanket statements like "Common law is not in effect until a certain time has passed." In some places that is true, but not in all places. In the Commonwealth where I live all you need to do is 1) live together and 2) hold yourself out to be married and you have fulfilled the requirements of Common Law marriage. There is no specific time requirement.

Please note, I am not necessarily disagreeing with what you are saying regarding cohabitation without marriage. I am simply cautioning you that when you use terms of Art such as "Common Law marriage" you must be specific.

 

[Cordy]

I am concerned that some people here are mislead about common law in Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage

If you read this, you will discover that there is no such thing as common law marriage in Canada. There is common law and there is marriage. If you want to be married, you have to get legally married in our country. There is no other way around it. You can live together for 50 years, and you will still NOT be married.

Common law means you are living together without being married – and that the government gives you a few rights for that so that people don’t have to commit in order to have rights. The rights do NOT mean you are married. They are two different things!!!

 

[SoldierofChrist]

I will take issue with one thing that you have said. The requirements for Common Law marriage vary from jurisdiction to jurisduction. You cannot make blanket statements like "Common law is not in effect until a certain time has passed." In some places that is true, but not in all places. In the Commonwealth where I live all you need to do is 1) live together and 2) hold yourself out to be married and you have fulfilled the requirements of Common Law marriage. There is no specific time requirement.

Please note, I am not necessarily disagreeing with what you are saying regarding cohabitation without marriage. I am simply cautioning you that when you use terms of Art such as "Common Law marriage" you must be specific.

Understood. I honestly did not realize it was that lax in some areas. I'd still say that it takes time to 'act like your married' to prove to the government your commitment. I just am concerned with folks who are purposefully trying to go against the grain to try and prove something. There is much more to this I think.

 

[SirKenin]

SoldierofChrist:

Clearly you don't understand the Ceremony of the Roses. In the Ceremony, Yyou are declaring a lifelong commitment before witnesses. If you read the Ceremony, you would understand that.

Your analogy of 12 year old children is not only insulting, it's ridiculous. They aren't leaving their father and mother, joining together and becoming one flesh. Again, you are offering conjecture and not Biblical proof, as the Bible doesn't back up your hypothesis.

As far as divorce statistics.. More than 50% of marriages end up in divorce.. You can't even offer numbers for common-law marriages, so it's clear to me that your example is pure conjecture, fabricated in a poor attempt to make a point.

Being obedient to authority? Ok. Canadian authority does not mandate a certificate. Again, your point is based on a fallacy.

mbams:

Maybe "married" by your understanding of the word isn't the proper term. Call it common-law husband and wife relationshiop then, if you would. And yes, as soon as you start living together, the Canadian government, for tax purposes and all, considers you husband and wife. You file jointly from the very first year you are together.

Now, there are certain rights and privileges to family assets that are not accorded to you by the Courts until a certain time has passed. The longer you are together, the more claim you have to the assets. Now you are getting into the Family Law Act R.S.O 1990, and I get the clear picture that not one here has any understanding of what that Law is all about. It is for establishing division of family assets, parental rights, etc. It all comes down to equalization on marital dissolution.

Do not get the two confused, an easy thing to do.

Can I call her my wife? Yes I can. She will be my common-law wife under Canadian Law for all intents and purposes. We will come together as the Bible provides, declare our lifelong commitment as outlined in the Ceremony before a small circle of people and consumate our union.

 

[SirKenin]

Common law is not in effect until a certain time has passed.

As I just finished pointing out, this statement is wrong.

You are considered common-law by the Canadian government from the first day you live together. However, your claim to the family assets is very limited until a certain time has passed as per the Family Law Act R.S.O 1990.

 

[SirKenin]

By the way, mbams, the rundown that I gave you of the FLA is extremely oversimplified to make a point. I could get into debating the finer points of Law, and as you can imagine they do exist, but it is pointless for the purpose of this discussion.

 

[SoldierofChrist]

I've never heard of the ceremony of the roses. I wasn't trying to insult you with the 12 year old analogy. I apologize. I was just trying to make a point, didn't realize you were so sensitive.

I found this section at canadianlawsite.com:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Common-law Relationships - Comparison with a traditional marriage[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]W[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]hile the common-law relationship continues there is little difference between a marriage and a common law relationship. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Income Tax Act Canada has for almost a decade recognized, for income tax purposes, common-law relationships, if the parties have a child together or have lived together for a least one year.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are substantial differences should the relationship end upon the death of one partner or one partner leaves the relationship:[/font]

• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Family Law Act of Ontario currently treats common-law relationships as trial marriages(Section 29) unless there are children. You can live together for up to three years without having to worry about court ordered support obligations should you separate during that period.[/font]

---A trial marriage isn't the same as a marriage. By a natural definition of those terms, a trial period is a 'testing of the waters,' and I don't see how this is a good testimony to the world showing that you aren't ready to commit to marriage, just simply want to test the waters and see where you stand. Why don't you just get married so that you can continue to be salt and light and a good testimony for Christ by showing that you are in submission to the authorities?

• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Family Law Act of Ontario, after a common-law relationship has passed the three year mark, treats both parties as if they were married when determining support obligations. Support is based upon the need of one party and ability to pay by the other.[/font]

---According to this section being married and being in a common-law relationship are different. I doubt the church would recognize a common-law relationship as marriage if the land does not.

• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Should two people living common-law have a child together, the Family Law Act of Ontario states that support obligations, should the couple separate, take effect immediately in spite of the length of the relationship.[/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is no sharing of property when a common-law relationship ends except jointly owned property. [/font]
• [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Should one of the common-law partners die, unless there is a will, there is no right to claim against the deceased partner's estate. However, you can share in your deceased partner's Canada Pension Plan if you have lived together for at least one year.[/font]

I'm probably not the best person to argue because I'm not Canadian, but according to the Family Law Act, a common-law relationship is not a marriage.

 

[Cordy]

... but according to the Family Law Act, a common-law relationship is not a marriage.

exactly.


Drfeelgood, you have demonstrated that there are some things that both common law and married people share in terms of rights. I agreed with you on the point since my first post in this thread. The real point is that there is a difference - although some things are the same, the government considers a common law couple and a married couple different things. Did you read the link? There is no such thing as common law marriage in our country. Sure, you can be taxed similarly to a married couple and might get the same treatment in some ways, but when you fill out an application, you have to tick off “common law” rather than the “married” (and there would not be both options if they were the same thing) – because you would belong to one group and not the other.

 

[SirKenin]

First, I had to specify to mbams that perhaps "marriage" in the traditionally understood sense of the word was not an appropriate term to use. Common-law relationship is better and the Canadian gov't recognizes those. The Bible does not dictate "marriage". The Family Law Act deals with dissolution. It does not mandate marriage licenses or any other related activities.

You live how you choose to live.. However, if you seperate or your partner dies, the FLA takes effect.

Second, I am making a commitment. A bond stronger than any marital commitment. However, a certificate isn't part of the ceremony. Neither is big stupid cakes, fanfare and the rest of that nonsense. It's a lifelong commitment. You really need to research the Ceremony and understand it before you can speak to it with any authority, k?

I still don't understand where the fornication comes in, either. You have left your parents and become one flesh. The Bible mandates this. The government says it's ok. The Law says ok, if you've lived together long enough we'll give you support payments and half of everything jointly accumulated.

So WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? Too many people hung up on a word and a useless piece of paper that costs $450 to get torn up into pieces. Bah.

 

[Cordy]

I think the “problem” lies in the fact that common-law and marriage are not viewed as the same thing by our government or society. I have already expressed why the government views them as separate (and have studied it in school, BTW. My professors and classmates clearly expressed how different common law is from marriage). Socially - common-law is understood as people living together rather than committed for life. It is often viewed as people who are trying out a “partner” prior to marriage or simply remaining in a relationship of cohabitation until the relationship dissolves. Most of my friends living common-law say they are doing so because they are not ready to be married, don’t want to ever commit etc. You can say that this doesn’t apply to you, but that is how society views it, and it is viewed differently than marriage.

I think, as it has been mentioned before, that you had made your decision before this thread started. I don’t understand why a Christian would want to live common-law and then have to continually try to justify to others why he or she thinks it should be considered marriage - even though both law and society say otherwise.

 

[charligirl]

We are required by God to follow the laws of our land.. if those laws state you need a ceremony to be married in the eyes of the law, then it is a requirement. If you live in a land where saying 'yes' under a palm tree is legally seen as marriage then that is sufficient.

 

[LadyBird]

You know what Dr? If that is what you really want...then go for it. Nobody really gives a darn whether or not you have a ceremony. I certainly don't. You are the only one, besides WP and a few others, who thinks that marriage ceremonies aren't necessary in this thread (oh and what does that tell you if 95% of christian people who responded in this thread say a marriage ceremony is necessary...it seems like your opinion in the minority...what does that tell you....). And frankly, after reading many of your posts, I see that you take passages from the Bible and twist them around so that you can do whatever you want. Anyways,

The thing that REALLY gets under my skin is that you say that a marriage ceremony is not neccessary and that it is not biblical. Well, in order to be LEGALLY married, MANY countries require a marriage ceremony and signing certificates and papers making a person and their SO legally married. And from what I can remember, the Bible says that we are to obey the laws of the land. And one of those laws in many countries is that you have to have a marriage license and ceremony to be legally married. So what if the country you live in is an exception! That is NO excuse!

Sounds like you just want to either A) be different from everyone or B) rebel or C) so that you wont be legally bound to each other and can just break up without having to go through a divorce again.

So what if Canada says that you don't have to have a ceremony to be legally married, all you have to do is shack up for a year. Wow! What a priviledge...then you qualify as a common law marriage! Good for you!

Part of a marriage ceremony is inviting all your friends and family to hear you and your fiancee exchange vows and witness you LEGALLY become husband and wife.

And one more thing Doc, she will be your COMMON LAW WIFE not your wife because you are NOT married. I am ashamed to live in Canada and have those sorts of CRAZY laws that allow people to call themselves common law and not be married...it sickens me, just the way this thread does. Although the gov't may recognize your unbiblical union, marriage, whatever you call it, many of your bothers and sisters in Christ as well as other normal people though will not recognize you as hubby and wife because you did not have a ceremony and you did not sign a marrige license and certifcate. Because in the eyes of MOST christians and other people that is what you need to do to be married...omgsh! Are they crazy ?

 

[DaveKerwin]

1. I am making a commitment. A bond stronger than any marital commitment.

2. I still don't understand where the fornication comes in, either. You have left your parents and become one flesh.

3.So WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? Too many people hung up on a word and a useless piece of paper.

4. Bah.

1. That's very proud of you to say.

2. Please hear this: A man will leave his father and mother, BE UNITED TO HIS WIFE, and the two become one flesh. You have ignored step two, which says to be united to your WIFE. Key word taken from the Bible: WIFE (not girlfriend, not bedmate, not cohabitator). Please, no more excuses. You have no wife, you are in a fantasy land.

3. God used the word, and HE told you to get that piece of paper. Again, you do not care about what God wants.

4. Bah. So is your bedmate a christian?

 

[selune]

SoldierofChrist:

Clearly you don't understand the Ceremony of the Roses. In the Ceremony, Yyou are declaring a lifelong commitment before witnesses. If you read the Ceremony, you would understand that.


As far as divorce statistics.. More than 50% of marriages end up in divorce.. You can't even offer numbers for common-law marriages, so it's clear to me that your example is pure conjecture, fabricated in a poor attempt to make a point.
QUOTE]

It's interesting the venom you seem to have against marriage. Sure there's evidence that marriages end in divorce, that's because there's evidence of a marriage having taken place. My biggest concern in your lack of regard for an official ceremony of some sort taking place is in 1 Corinthians 8. You have liberty to believe that this union is legit. BUT, if your union causes others to stumble then a serious problem exists. When we love others, our freedom should be less important to us than strengthening the faith of our brothers and sisters in Christ. Peace to you.

 

[OracleX]

*** Mod Hat On ***
Ok lets turn down the flames a bit. Please debate/discus things civically.

Please ... no more name calling ... no more mud slinging ... no more personal attacks.

If this thread does not turn around very soon it will be locked.
*** Mod Hat Off***