"Do your research"

[Opdrey]

One of my favorite comebacks to someone claiming they don't have any evidence to support a Biblical event is: "keep looking."

Is that what Creationists do when they demand a transitional fossil?

If you can't find any, then:

1. consider that no evidence was generated

If no evidence was generated how do YOU know it occurred? You will, of course, say you have the Bible, but that is just something telling you it occurred. You don't "know" it occurred anymore than if someone just said to you "this and that happened".

Not slagging the Bible here, but reading something from a source of unknown provenance does not mean it is evidence. That is pure 100% faith.

1. consider that the evidence was removed for legitimate reasons

I cannot imagine why God would have to hide or remove anything that would help support knowledge of His existence.

1. wait until your technology is sufficiently advanced to detect evidence

Is that why the Church often fights tooth and nail against scientific research? (cf Gallileo)

1. make sure you're not misinterpreting or overlooking something that would count as evidence

Don't give up the ship prematurely.

That's fair enough. One should always have an open mind that new evidence will arise. But if no evidence is present it seems to be an irrational position to say "I will believe it until evidence shows up to the opposite even though I have no evidence of the positive position."

 

[Ophiolite]

If I may, for a moment: when someone claims to do their own research they take on the mantle of a researcher. And, sadly, researchers know that their primary job is to ALWAYS be able and willing to produce their research. They write endless papers about every jot and tittle of their research.

So when someone says "do your own research" when they are questioned they are NOT ACTING LIKE A REAL RESEARCHER. Since a real researcher wouldn't say that.

It is people just wanting to PLAY scientists rather than BE scientists.

A very nice point, in both senses of the word. It is something that had not occurred to me before.

I do differ from you on the last point. I suggest the common motivation is to defend their position in a way that seems sound from the viewpoint of fellow travellers. I have seen very few who know enough about scientific method to want to play at it. Rather, they see a "weapon" (science and evolution) in the hands of the "enemy" and they decide to use the weapon themselves. But we know what can happen when an untrained individual starts playing with a loaded gun.

 

[AV1611VET]

I cannot imagine why God would have to hide or remove anything that would help support knowledge of His existence.

In the case of the Flood, God cleaned up His mess so effectively, that had He not documented it, we wouldn't know about it.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

In the case of the Flood, God cleaned up His mess so effectively, that had He not documented it, we wouldn't know about it.

Where did he document that he cleaned up and erased the evidence?

 

[AV1611VET]

Where did he document that he cleaned up and erased the evidence?

Noah sent a dove out a second time, which came back with an olive leaf.

In view of the fact that it takes olive trees years to grow, how did said tree appear within a week of the dove's first flight?

 

[SelfSim]

Noah sent a dove out a second time, which came back with an olive leaf.

In view of the fact that it takes olive trees years to grow, how did said tree appear within a week of the dove's first flight?

Is that an answer? .. (Because it looks like a question posed in order to sustain an unsustainable and inconsistent paradigm)

 

[AV1611VET]

Is that an answer?

Yes.

(Because it looks like a question posed in order to sustain an unsustainable and inconsistent paradigm)

Week One: Nothing alive outside the Ark -- absolutely nothing (except a raven).

Dead bodies everywhere. Mud everywhere.

The entire earth is one color: dead.

Week Two: Olive tree flourishing. Ground is dry. Fruit trees everywhere. Thousands and thousands of animals (according to science) disembark and flourish everywhere.

What do you think happened in that week's time?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Noah sent a dove out a second time, which came back with an olive leaf.

In view of the fact that it takes olive trees years to grow, how did said tree appear within a week of the dove's first flight?

How does that indicate that God erased evidence?

 

[AV1611VET]

How does that indicate that God erased evidence?

It indicates God cleaned up His mess.

Remember Adam?

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Should God have left a scar on Adam on purpose?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

It indicates God cleaned up His mess.

No it doesn’t. It says nothing about clearing up mess. You don't have to erase evidence of a global flood in order to grow a tree.

 

[AV1611VET]

No it doesn’t. It says nothing about clearing up mess. You don't have to erase evidence of a global flood in order to grow a tree.

Don't stop there.

Grow a tree, get some tens of thousands of animals off the Ark and have every one of them recover from this bottleneck event.

Get Noah and his family off the Ark and have them replenish the earth in quick-time.

And they didn't grow that tree.

As I said, that tree would have taken years to grow; but one week it wasn't there, and the next week it was.

Everyone, including the animals, would have died of thirst from not having potable water.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Don't stop there.

Grow a tree, get some tens of thousands of animals off the Ark and have every one of them recover from this bottleneck event.

Get Noah and his family off the Ark and have them replenish the earth in quick-time.

And they didn't grow that tree.

As I said, that tree would have taken years to grow; but one week it wasn't there, and the next week it was.

Everyone, including the animals, would have died of thirst from not having potable water.

This is actually part of the evidence that the story of Noah is myth and not history. Stuff happens at the speed of plot.

 

[AV1611VET]

This is actually part of the evidence that the story of Noah is myth and not history.

I'm more interested in discussing what you don't have, and why you don't have it; than I am in discussing what you think you have.

 

[Opdrey]

In the case of the Flood, God cleaned up His mess so effectively, that had He not documented it, we wouldn't know about it.

But God so effectively cleaned it up that literally not one scrap of evidence exists, even stuff that wouldn't have been a "safety hazard". It's almost like removing evidence. I wonder who does that sort of thing?

I understand why some people need Genesis to be literal truth for their faith, but I hope they realize that in so doing they create a version of God that comes across as being someone to go out of His way to hide truth from people.

I've never understood that version of God. I get the idea that "faith" is necessary but if God went out of his way to actively HIDE information that could lead people to Him (and he knows that some people are like Thomas and need something like evidence) then He's going out of his way to ensure some people never come to Him.

If God were just a regular dude I could see how He might confuse that point, but given that he knows all things and knows us down to every atom of ourselves it kind of makes me wonder if this version of God that hides things is kind of hoping for a certain cut to be damned.

That's why I don't understand that version of God. It doesn't comport with a God who so loved the world that He sacrificed Himself to Himself to atone us to Him.

 

[Opdrey]

Don't stop there.

Grow a tree, get some tens of thousands of animals off the Ark and have every one of them recover from this bottleneck event.

A bottleneck event that God also had to clean up by removing any evidence of it in the genomes of animals.

 

[partinobodycular]

I'm more interested in discussing what you don't have, and why you don't have it; than I am in discussing what you think you have.

Why do creationists have to speak out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand God cleaned it up. But on the other hand there's evidence for it everywhere, geologists et al are just too blind/stupid see it. So which is it? Is there evidence or isn't there? Pick one and stick with it.

 

[Ophiolite]

In the case of the Flood, God cleaned up His mess so effectively, that had He not documented it, we wouldn't know about it.

Can you explain why he cleaned up that flood, but failed to clean up any of the many millions of other floods, for which there is evidece? Floods that range from tiny overflows of small rivers, to continent spanning inundations! Why the selectivity?

 

[Hans Blaster]

It indicates God cleaned up His mess.

Remember Adam?

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Should God have left a scar on Adam on purpose?

But the text doesn't say that Adam didn't have a scar. "Closing up the flesh" only eliminates the open wound. All surgeons "close up the flesh" and it still leaves a scar.

Perhaps he had no scar, perhaps he woke up with a bandage wrapped around his torso and a bottle of Percocet. It just doesn't say. Either way he was distracted afterwards since God had just invented women (and not yet invented clothes).

 

[AV1611VET]

But God so effectively cleaned it up that literally not one scrap of evidence exists, even stuff that wouldn't have been a "safety hazard".

The two pieces I think He left behind are the white cliffs and meandering rivers.

Everything else was cleaned up for sanitary and safety reasons; else, without His intervention, they would have died of thirst.

It's almost like removing evidence.

Cleaning up after oneself is call "compromising."

That's why cops put out yellow tape at a crime scene, so people traipsing around won't compromise the scene.

But in the case of the Flood, the "crime scene" was already processed and rebooted to sustain life.

Else they would have died of thirst.

I wonder who does that sort of thing?

You probably have, when your mother told you to clean up your room.

And although you couldn't do it so effectively as to remove all the evidence, your mother would understand.

In God's case though, He is able to "clean His room" so effectively as to not leave any evidence around.

Else they would have died of thirst.

I understand why some people need Genesis to be literal truth for their faith, but I hope they realize that in so doing they create a version of God that comes across as being someone to go out of His way to hide truth from people.

When your mother told you to clean your room, did you clean it? or did you hide the mess?

Could a 15 year old go to Louisiana today and know that Hurricane Katrina hit it? or would she have to read the documentation from the era?

I've never understood that version of God.

Frankly I don't think you've ever heard it before.

You've probably been taught that God "hid the evidence," not "cleaned up His mess."

I get the idea that "faith" is necessary but if God went out of his way to actively HIDE information that could lead people to Him (and he knows that some people are like Thomas and need something like evidence) then He's going out of his way to ensure some people never come to Him.

And as long as you use that word HIDE, you're not going to understand what I'm saying.

That's why I don't understand that version of God.

What version of God? that He hid the evidence, or that He cleaned up His mess for sanitary and safety reasons, lest they would all die of thirst?

You call yourself a seeker, and I'm beginning to wonder what it is you're seeking.

 

[AV1611VET]

A bottleneck event that God also had to clean up by removing any evidence of it in the genomes of animals.

I wouldn't know.