Do your best to explain Romans 5

[ladodgers6]

God sent His Son to overcome the powers of darkness, to free us from the bondage to Satan. Jesus brings mankind back to God from the rule of Satan. Christ is victorious over death and is by his sacrifice given power over sin, so Jesus rightfully can set anyone free from darkness and sin. Every person who has Jesus as Lord, go in under God's rule, were Christ freely atones and gives freedom from bondage of sin, through the new birth.

The short answer is: Because people don't go in under the rule of Christ.

Yea, I agree with this. Just with a slight adjustment. Jesus is our Savior & Lord!

 

[EmethAlethia]

One chapter I've been reading maybe more than any other chapter in the Bible, that is Romans 5. Since it's a description of the atonement, it's a very central chapter of the Bible. Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5. Let us discuss this chapter and do our best to understand it.P

The problem crops i people want to pick different meanings for the word "all"/"Pas" within the same passage to try and make the passage justify their beliefs.You can't do that if you want truth. If you want truth, pick the same meaning for every single place where the same word is used in the passage. All, without clarification from within the passage itself, always means all. All Gentiles, or All those that believe ... would be limiting. No limits = no limits. Don't create meaning that does not exist to try and force passages to conform to your beliefs. Alter your beliefs to fit the truth actually taught in all the passages that apply.

 

[FineLinen]

The problem crops i people want to pick different meanings for the word "all"/"Pas" within the same passage to try and make the passage justify their beliefs.You can't do that if you want truth. If you want truth, pick the same meaning for every single place where the same word is used in the passage. All, without clarification from within the passage itself, always means all. All Gentiles, or All those that believe ... would be limiting. No limits = no limits. Don't create meaning that does not exist to try and force passages to conform to your beliefs. Alter your beliefs to fit the truth actually taught in all the passages that apply.

You have nailed it E.A.! Both sides of the equation are identical, no twisting and turning can be tolerated. Adam 1 neutralized by the Last Adam in a large scope of unprecedented victory!

 

[redleghunter]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

You gave the two verses and focused on the second part not addressing the first part which addressed God's calling.

 

[redleghunter]

As ususal we are in disagreement. Rom 3 talks about how we WERE slaves to sin, not that we are slaves to sin. See Romans 6.

"20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

Romans 3
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

All HAVE sinned, i.o.w. we WERE sinners. Everyone is being justified by the same means, as a gift by faith in Jesus Christ.

That is not why I posted what I did. I was under the impression you wanted to discuss atonement in this thread and it is Romans 3 where it is discussed.

 

[redleghunter]

As a reply to this I will post a clip by David Bercot. It about one hour. Why don't you listen to it, when you got some spare time.

I make it a personal policy not to comment on long theological videos unless they can be boiled down to a few minutes like this one:

 

[redleghunter]

Was every Israel man who got sprinkled by the blood according to the OC saved?

Considering everyone who was in the assembly on the Day of Atonement (participation was mandatory) were sealed in the covenant through circumcision, yes that atoning sacrifice covered them all.

However it did not cover those outside the assembly of Israel meaning uncircumcised Gentiles. Why would it? They were not of the covenant.

 

[redleghunter]

Exactly, when he says all are made alive in Christ, he means all who are in Christ. It's a pretty obvious qualifyer.

Why it is important to look at the Scriptures as a whole when difficulties come up like this. I agree.

 

[redleghunter]

I agree with you Redleghunter. It's totally unnecessary to say stuff like LadyCrosstalk did. As much as I disagree with Calvinism ... I don't hate people of Calvinism. I also love Muslims, but I hate Islam. Even we are of different opinions we are to love each other.

Very nice. Calvinists are like Muslims.

What some are arguing against is not Calvinism but Covenant theology. It's really difficult to argue against Covenant theology as it's Biblically based.

Notice the majority of folks who are of the Covenant persuasion have only been giving Biblical expository vs. the competing verses pitted against each other reminiscent of eisegesis.

 

[redleghunter]

That dosnt look like a disagreement, it looks more like a misunderstanding. For two and a half chapters Paul describes mankind knowing the. truth of God but suppressing the truth I in unrighteousness, Jew and Greek alike judge under and apart from the Law respectively. Romans 3 I'd a transition marked by two words, ' but now', and what is reveal now is the righteousness of God in Christ which is by faith. What Red was pointing out is atonement is only mentioned in Romans in the 3rd chapter. There is no mention made of being a slave to sin unless you are simply projecting something you think is related to Romans 6. The blessings of those forgiven by God's graces occupies the content of the 4th chapter and chapter 5 is simply a contrast between being in Adam and being in Christ.

Atonement is a supreme Levetical event under the Mosaic Law. The word in chapter 3

What it says is that in Adam all die in Christ all are made alive. It does say that in Adam we are all under the curse of sin and death, it does not say that all are in Christ. Quite the opposite, Paul is clear that you are only in Christ by faith, and you are in Adam by birth. A distinction you appear to find elusive.

Excellent exposition. I would say the Old Covenant was the type for the new. Only those sealed in the covenant had access to the burnt offerings, sacrifices and atonement.

 

[συνείδησις]

You gave the two verses and focused on the second part not addressing the first part which addressed God's calling.

Oh. They are both the same. GOD draws us to himself with his spirit. As he speaks we hear and learn to know and follow that voice until such time that he opens our eyes where we can see and believe.

 

[redleghunter]

My friend! I think you misunderstood me. Mark kennedy's Bible quote didn't say who Jesus died for, only that those who believe in Jesus will be saved. My point was that this by no means would prove limited atonement.

I agree with you in full, that Jesus is SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ALL MANKIND, THE WHOLE WORLD.

Did Christ atone for the sins of those thrown in the Lake of fire in Revelation 20 and Revelation 21?

 

[redleghunter]

Well if you're dead in spirit and conscious as you now admit what's to stop the dead from at least hearing the invitation of God and making a choice?

The dead in spirit are awakened by God. Like the sweet smell of a mother's cooking takes us out of a Saturday morning slumber. Or a firm arm shake by a Dad saying time to get up and mow the lawn sonny boy.

 

[zoidar]

That is not why I posted what I did. I was under the impression you wanted to discuss atonement in this thread and it is Romans 3 where it is discussed.

Sorry if I was a bit off focus. I don't think I understood exactly what you wanted to say by your post. Would you elaborate?

"hilastḗrion" means mercy seat. Christ is our mercy seat, the mediator, where man and God can meet.

As @mark kennedy mentioned, Romans 3 is really the crux chapter on atonement. Don't think we need another thread just you allowing an expansion. I'll post it below and each verse number should have a hyperlink to Biblehub where if someone wanted to compare different versions, commentary and the Lexicon.

Romans 3: NASB
1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Justification by Faith

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Bolded and underlined above is the key sentence in the passage and the word "propitiation." Some versions use atonement. Here's a bit more from the Lexicon and Vines Expository:

2435. hilastérion

Strong's Concordance
hilastérion: propitiatory
Original Word: ἱλαστήριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hilastérion
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-tay'-ree-on)
Short Definition: a sin offering, covering
Definition: (a) a sin offering, by which the wrath of the deity shall be appeased; a means of propitiation, (b) the covering of the ark, which was sprinkled with the atoning blood on the Day of Atonement.

HELPS Word-studies
2435 hilastḗrion (a substantival adjective, derived from 2433 /hiláskomai, "to propitiate") – the place of propitiation; the lid of the golden ark (the mercy-seat) where the blood of a vicarious lamb appeased God's wrath on sin. See also 2434 (hilasmós).

Strong's Greek: 2435. ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) -- propitiatory

I'll post from Vines in the next post as this one is long.

 

[FineLinen]

Did Christ atone for the sins of those thrown in the Lake of fire

You will find the Lake of Fire has a wonderful ingredient: theion. You will also find the root for theion is none other than Theos. The Lake is the breath of Jehovah, and you can rest assured when He breathes on anything there is dramatic change. I will leave it there for now, but get adjusted to our God who IS Fire!

 

[zoidar]

Considering everyone who was in the assembly on the Day of Atonement (participation was mandatory) were sealed in the covenant through circumcision, yes that atoning sacrifice covered them all.

Yet not all who got sprinkled were saved in the end ...

However it did not cover those outside the assembly of Israel meaning uncircumcised Gentiles. Why would it? They were not of the covenant.

I didn't say that. I said that not all those among the Isralites that were sprinkled were saved. It was for the whole Israel (Jews), just as Christ's atonement is for the whole world (Jews and gentiles).

 

[Bobber]

The dead in spirit are awakened by God. Like the sweet smell of a mother's cooking takes us out of a Saturday morning slumber. Or a firm arm shake by a Dad saying time to get up and mow the lawn sonny boy.

Well you said in a prior post that dead people can't hear things...but their noses work fine and can smell God like you would a mother's cooking on a Saturday morning? You're kind of funny!

 

[zoidar]

Very nice. Calvinists are like Muslims.

I didn't say that. I do hate Calvinism though, just as I hate Islam

Why? Because Calvinism diminish the work of Christ. And not only that, also distort the character of our LOVING God.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

You will find the Lake of Fire has a wonderful ingredient: theion. You will also find the root for theion is none other than Theos. The Lake is the breath of Jehovah, and you can rest assured when He breathes on anything there is dramatic change. I will leave it there for now, but get adjusted to our God who IS Fire!

Yes. Exodus 15:7
Deuteronomy 4:24
Hebrews 12:29

The Lake of Fire is gehenna in the Aramaic but our New Testament translations render both the Greek word, hades and gehenna as "hell". Jesus used the two words in different contexts so I think we can safely assume that they are two different places. In His discussion of the Rich Man and the other Lazarus, Jesus had the Rich Man in hades while Lazarus was with Abraham in paradise (in the passage, the concept of the "bosom of Abraham" is used but they were roughly synonymous ). The whole of it, in the Jewish understanding, sheol--the place of the dead was divided into two parts with an unbridgeable gulf between--the part for the just (a place of peace and blessing) and the part for the unjust (a place of torment). There was said to be a gate at the bottom of of hades where the eternally damned passed as they were led to the Lake of Fire. In that instance, hades can be seen as a kind of "holding tank"--a place of torment but leading ultimately to continuous annihilation in the Lake of Fire (gehenna) by the consuming fire of the wrath of God. This is the "Second Death" that the Book of Revelation names as such. When Jesus warns His hearers to, "...fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" the word He uses for "hell" is Gehenna. Jesus' hearers would have been familiar with the concepts Jesus expressed in the account because it was mostly the position of their rabbis and was the prevailing view held by the Pharisees (the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife). Interestingly, those taking the Mark of the Beast are said to be tormented forever along with the Beast, the False Profit and Satan himself. This suggests that they are immortal and cannot die. In fact, the Book of Revelation says that "those belonging to this world" will long to die but that death eludes them.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes. Exodus 15:7
Deuteronomy 4:24
Hebrews 12:29

The Lake of Fire is gehenna in the Aramaic but our New Testament translations render both the Greek word, hades and gehenna as "hell". Jesus used the two words in different contexts so I think we can safely assume that they are two different places. In His discussion of the Rich Man and the other Lazarus, Jesus had the Rich Man in hades while Lazarus was with Abraham in paradise (in the passage, the concept of the "bosom of Abraham" is used but they were roughly synonymous ). The whole of it, in the Jewish understanding, sheol--the place of the dead was divided into two parts with an unbridgeable gulf between--the part for the just (a place of peace and blessing) and the part for the unjust (a place of torment). There was said to be a gate at the bottom of of hades where the eternally damned passed as they were led to the Lake of Fire. In that instance, hades can be seen as a kind of "holding tank"--a place of torment but leading ultimately to annihilation in the Lake of Fire--Gehenna by the consuming fire of the wrath of God. When Jesus warns His hearers to, "...fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" the word He uses for "hell" is Gehenna. Jesus' hearers would have been familiar with the concepts Jesus expressed in the account because it was mostly the position of their rabbis and was the prevailing view held by the Pharisees (the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife).

Good to remember the context of the Sadducees; they correspond remarkably to the skeptics of today.