Do your best to explain Romans 5

[συνείδησις]

How do you handle the calling before all that?

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[mark kennedy]

I would say all of it. The whole book of Romans is a theological treatise.

Clearly Romans is Paul's most in-depth discussion of justification by faith. In my mind it's core theme is righteousness, justification being a form of the same word.

 

[zoidar]

As @mark kennedy mentioned, Romans 3 is really the crux chapter on atonement. Don't think we need another thread just you allowing an expansion. I'll post it below and each verse number should have a hyperlink to Biblehub where if someone wanted to compare different versions, commentary and the Lexicon.

Romans 3: NASB
1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Justification by Faith

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Bolded and underlined above is the key sentence in the passage and the word "propitiation." Some versions use atonement. Here's a bit more from the Lexicon and Vines Expository:

2435. hilastérion

Strong's Concordance
hilastérion: propitiatory
Original Word: ἱλαστήριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hilastérion
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-tay'-ree-on)
Short Definition: a sin offering, covering
Definition: (a) a sin offering, by which the wrath of the deity shall be appeased; a means of propitiation, (b) the covering of the ark, which was sprinkled with the atoning blood on the Day of Atonement.

HELPS Word-studies
2435 hilastḗrion (a substantival adjective, derived from 2433 /hiláskomai, "to propitiate") – the place of propitiation; the lid of the golden ark (the mercy-seat) where the blood of a vicarious lamb appeased God's wrath on sin. See also 2434 (hilasmós).

Strong's Greek: 2435. ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) -- propitiatory

I'll post from Vines in the next post as this one is long.

As ususal we are in disagreement. Rom 3 talks about how we WERE slaves to sin, not that we are slaves to sin. See Romans 6.

"20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

Romans 3
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

All HAVE sinned, i.o.w. we WERE sinners. Everyone is being justified by the same means, as a gift by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[zoidar]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

A-1 Verb Strong's Number: g2433 Greek: hilaskomai :

Propitiation:

was used amongst the Greeks with the significance "to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attitude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.

Thus in Luk 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Hbr 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation." Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man. God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.

The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrificially, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (see MERCY-SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Lev 1:4; 14:20; 16:24, the guilt offering e.g., Lev 5:16,18, the sin offering, e.g., Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35, the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Lev 5:10; 9:7, the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Eze 45:15, 17, as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exd 29:33, and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Lev 17:11, and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.

B-1 Noun Strong's Number: g2435 Greek: hilasterion

Propitiation:

akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exd 25:17; 37:6, of the lid of the ark (see MERCY-SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exd 25:18-22; 31:7; 35:12; 37:7, 8, 9; Lev 16:2, 13-15; Num 7:89, and this is its use in Hbr 9:5.

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Rom 3:25, where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.

Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Lev 17:11, when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Hbr 9:22.

"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]

B-2 Noun Strong's Number: g2434 Greek: hilasmos

Propitiation:

akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Lev 25:9; Num 5:8; 1Ch 28:20; Psa 130:4; Eze 44:27; Amo 8:14.

Source: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words---Propitiation

Now for Atonement:
Atonement ...

As a reply to this I will post a clip by David Bercot. It about one hour. Why don't you listen to it, when you got some spare time.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Have a look at my post n verses 1 to 11. I think you may have missed something. The post is at Do your best to explain Romans 5

The very first verse tells of the basis of our salvation--it is through faith alone. I agree that we cannot and do not come to Christ until we surrender our will to that of His and unless the Father draws us. But the decision is ours--Joshua said, "Choose this day..." He did not say, "God will choose for you because you are helpless to do so." We can open the door to His grace and live in eternal blessing-or not, and be condemned for our sins through all eternity.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Are you arguing instead that both are unaccountable?

There is valid opinions on that. But we cannot escape that we are all sinners.

A sinner is one who sins. Yes, a baby has inherited a sin nature (and will spiritually die when he/she commits the first sin in willful disobedience) but is not yet guilty of personal sin. The sin of Adam and Eve was/is repeated in the lives of every human--except for One. "As in Adam all die, so, in Christ shall all be made alive..." through the spiritual rebirth that comes down from heaven when we place our faith in Him.

 

[zoidar]

Anyone sprinkled with the blood meant their sins were covered by the sacrifice.
Peter uses that term in describing the elect in 1 Peter 1.
Now WHO does the sprinkling? Who obtains it? Why do they get sprinkled? This does not just fall on everybody.
The elect are sprinkled by Christs blood and only the elect, so only the saved get sprinkled and have their sins covered by Christ's blood. The unbelieving world dies in their sins.

1 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the [a]pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Was every Israel man who got sprinkled by the blood according to the OC saved?

 

[zoidar]

The study of the word used translated 'atonement', can be a challenge. There is no English equivalent, when William Tyndale translated it he had to coin a new word for it, atonement is actually more like, 'at one moment'', that moment was when the blood was sprinkled before the mercy seat. The High Priest had to burn incence in there in order that he not see God and die. The significance that God was literally in the Holy of Holies cannot be overemphasised. The book of Hebrews compares the Day of Atonement to the atonement of Christ. It's an extensive comparison but the High Priest had to make a sacrifice for himself first and then for the nation. This was a yearly reminder of sin but Christ made atonement once and for all.

Atonement is a word in Greek ripe with exegetical challenges. It can be boiled down to Christ has entered into the Holy of Holies in heaven, where he passed through the veil making final atonement for all our sins. We can now approach the throne boldly because the sin that separated us from God is ended, the literal meaning of propitiation, aka atonement.

That's the best I can boil it down, it's really hard to understand atonement until you appreciate the significance of it to the Jewish audience Paul was writing to.

Grace and peace,
Mark

You might also be interested in the clip by David Bercot, linked in my previous post. #264

 

[FineLinen]

A sinner is one who sins. Yes, a baby has inherited a sin nature (and will spiritually die when he/she commits the first sin in willful disobedience) but is not yet guilty of personal sin. The sin of Adam and Eve was/is repeated in the lives of every human--except for One. "As in Adam all die, so, in Christ shall all be made alive..." through the spiritual rebirth that comes down from heaven when we place our faith in Him.

My friend: one sins as a result of being a sinner. One does not need to commit "the first sin" to be a sinner, that is his/her nature! The new birth is absolutely necessary, and comes about in a process of "being" accounted righteous. Justification on that basis is a wonderful fact, but the Last Adam is working towards a goal of making the "mass" of mankind righteous>>>"made righteous." The problem with "the rule"= we are lost from day 1!

"God is the Savior of all mankind, especially those who believe/trust in Him."

Please note the word "especially". Our God is not a potential Savior, He is the Savior of all mankind,(and within that pas/all broken lost sinners) those who believe/trust in Him, thus a wonderful "especially" class of His amazing love and grace.

 

[zoidar]

If Christ died for all men, then why do people perish?

God sent His Son to overcome the powers of darkness, to free us from the bondage to Satan. Jesus brings mankind back to God from the rule of Satan. Christ is victorious over death and is by his sacrifice given power over sin, so Jesus rightfully can set anyone free from darkness and sin. Every person who has Jesus as Lord, go in under God's rule, were Christ freely atones and gives freedom from bondage of sin, through the new birth.

The short answer is: Because people don't go in under the rule of Christ.

 

[112358]

Clearly Romans is Paul's most in-depth discussion of justification by faith. In my mind it's core theme is righteousness, justification being a form of the same word.

This I agree with 100%. It’s what I said earlier in the thread.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

My friend: one sins as a result of being a sinner. One does not need to commit "the first sin" to be a sinner, that is his/her nature!

Then how could anyone be described as "blameless" as they are in the Old Testament? Sin is a violation of God's orders to humanity--His Law, as it were--and it is the basis for condemnation. Yes, we all have a "sin nature"--a potential for sin but we do not all sin--at first. Jesus was the only human to have ever made it from birth to death without sin. But, I totally reject the idea that an innocent baby who dies is eternally lost. How could their angels be perpetually in front of the throne of God as Jesus describes it?

 

[zoidar]

No, "mankind" does not inherently mean each and every individual unless other context markers make that intention clear. The Greek grammatically can go either way, as for that matter can the English.

When does not mankind mean the whole human race?

 

[FineLinen]

Then how could anyone be described as "blameless" as they are in the Old Testament? Sin is a violation of God's orders to humanity--His Law, as it were--and it is the basis for condemnation. Yes, we all have a "sin nature"--a potential for sin but we do not all sin--at first. Jesus was the only human to have ever made it from birth to death without sin. But, I totally reject the idea that an innocent baby who dies is eternally lost. How could their angels be perpetually in front of the throne of God as Jesus describes it?

Again, we are by nature sinners, just give us a few opportunities to demonstrate the fact! I also reject any idea of "innocent baby's" being "eternally lost", but lost they are minus eternally. Are you aware of the fact that in this same wonderful epistle to the Romans, we also have these words?

"The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free/ emancipate from the tyranny of change and decay....

*******Including innocent baby's who are sinners

 

[zoidar]

Exactly, when he says all are made alive in Christ, he means all who are in Christ. It's a pretty obvious qualifyer.

Maybe, even so it doesn't say that Christ didn't die for everyone.

 

[zoidar]

You can not have faith in the Son except you are first born of God.
I already showed the relevant verses.
All who are natural born are all carnally minded, And all carnally minded are at enmity with God.
The carnal mind it says cannot be submitted to God's law, so it certainly can not believe in Christ when God tells the carnal mind to repent, God's command is just ignored, it is why they are the sons of disobedience.

Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You can NOT choose to be carnal or spiritual, you are what you were born to be, either carnal or spiritual, there is no inbetween state of existence.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

IF YOU LIVE according to the SPIRIT, than means God made you born of God so that you have eternal life, this is not some kind of personal choice to make, to either at one moment be carnally minded or at another moment spiritually minded.

If you live according to the FLESH, well your dead, spiritually dead and not in Christ.. People have turned this passage into some kind of daily personal decision they can make, which is also being double minded, and an impossibility, since you are either born of God or not.

I would say, you have to believe in Christ first to be born again. First you believe, then you give your life to Jesus and you are born again.

 

[FineLinen]

Maybe, even so it doesn't say that Christ didn't die for everyone.

Nonsense! "He is the propitiation for our sins">>>>>>>>>and what?

"Not for our sins ONLY, but for the sins of the whole world"

What part of "only" evades your grasp? He is the hilasmos of the holos!

 

[zoidar]

Did I miss your exegesis on the subject?

A most unkind post. How many of the brethren have you offended with the above post?

I agree with you Redleghunter. It's totally unnecessary to say stuff like LadyCrosstalk did. As much as I disagree with Calvinism ... I don't hate people of Calvinism. I also love Muslims, but I hate Islam. Even we are of different opinions we are to love each other.

 

[zoidar]

MacArthur does give a very good answer. Thanks for sharing.

I think it's impossible to give an age of accountability. To say it's the age of 12 I feel is wrong. It can feel safe to believe in a certain age, but just as MA states, no such age is mentioned in the Bible. We are to trust in God's love and goodness for those who are too young to understand and for those who are mentally out of reach.

 

[mark kennedy]

As ususal we are in disagreement. Rom 3 talks about how we WERE slaves to sin, not that we are slaves to sin. See Romans 6.

"20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

Romans 3
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

All HAVE sinned, i.o.w. we WERE sinners. Everyone is being justified by the same means, as a gift by faith in Jesus Christ.

That dosnt look like a disagreement, it looks more like a misunderstanding. For two and a half chapters Paul describes mankind knowing the. truth of God but suppressing the truth I in unrighteousness, Jew and Greek alike judge under and apart from the Law respectively. Romans 3 I'd a transition marked by two words, ' but now', and what is reveal now is the righteousness of God in Christ which is by faith. What Red was pointing out is atonement is only mentioned in Romans in the 3rd chapter. There is no mention made of being a slave to sin unless you are simply projecting something you think is related to Romans 6. The blessings of those forgiven by God's graces occupies the content of the 4th chapter and chapter 5 is simply a contrast between being in Adam and being in Christ.

Atonement is a supreme Levetical event under the Mosaic Law. The word in chapter 3

Maybe, even so it doesn't say that Christ didn't die for everyone.

What it says is that in Adam all die in Christ all are made alive. It does say that in Adam we are all under the curse of sin and death, it does not say that all are in Christ. Quite the opposite, Paul is clear that you are only in Christ by faith, and you are in Adam by birth. A distinction you appear to find elusive.