Do your best to explain Romans 5

[zoidar]

Taken in isolation, it might be hard to tell what it is referring to. However, the context behind nearly all of Paul's epistles is the context of the heresy of the Judaizers. In that light, nearly every topic is about showing that Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat outside of Christ, and in the same boat in Christ.

I tend to agree... How are we to understand "many" or "the many" ?

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgressionresulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[discipler7]

Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5.

.

I think it's important to know if one believes that Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind, OR if only the effects of that sin were passed down to all mankind.

I believe the bible teaches that God does not impute Adam's sin to all mankind. We are each responsible for our own sins.
Romans 4:8

ROMANS.5: = Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

The blood of Jesus Christ atoned for Adam's Original Sin(AOS), so that believers "should not perish but have everlasting life".(LEV.17:11, HEBREWS.9:22, JOHN.3:16)
....... AOS caused all of Adam's descendants to be born with evilness/sinfulness/satanicism in their hearts.(JOHN.8:44, MATTHEW.16:23 & 23:27, MARK.7:21, 1JOHN.3:8) Evil/sin often rises in their hearts and then they may tend to go and commit evil-works/sins. Eg hate and anger in the heart may bear fruit into murder and lust in the heart may bear fruit into adultery(MATTHEW.5:21-30).

Without Christ, those who ever have hate, anger, lust, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fears/worries, doubts, etc, in their hearts are bound for hell when they die = everyone is bound for hell. And if they had further committed murder, adultery, sexual immorality, stealing, lying/cheating, blasphemy, etc, they will be cursed/punished by God or His agents(eg police) with terror, calamities, early death, etc = a sad and short life on earth.

The blood of Jesus Christ atoned for AOS or people's inborn evilness = believers in Christ are saved from hell when they die.

God gave the Jews His Law through Moses(= Moses Law) in order to curb fallen humans' tendency to commit evil-works/sins. The works of the Law "saves" people from a horrible life on earth. The works of the Law does not save people from hell.
....... Similarly, US Law, national Law, natural Law, Sharia Law, etc "saves" people from suffering in a lawless and non-peaceful society.

Believers know how evil/sinful/satanic they are on the inside or in their hearts but they also know that the blood of Jesus has cleansed their "dirty"/evil hearts and made them righteous for eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. Their works of the Law or any other Law could never cleanse their hearts.
....... Sanctification through the works of the Law could only cleanse their feet and hands from evil-works/sins.

So, humans' fallen Adamic sin/evil nature proves that justification for salvation is solely by faith in Jesus Christ, not by faith+works of any Law and not by works of any Law.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

One chapter I've been reading maybe more than any other chapter in the Bible, that is Romans 5. Since it's a description of the atonement, it's a very central chapter of the Bible. Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5. Let us discuss this chapter and do our best to understand it.

Christ love,

P

The first 11 verses hardly need explanation.... they are self-explanatory about what we have in Christ through faith. Without Christ, we all deserve to be eliminated. The essence of the gospel-- which if we believe it, brings great joy:. "... God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

The rest of Romans 5 is about original sin and it effects, and how redemption reverses that. Paul repeats himself so that we get it.

There are hundreds of commentaries out there, many of which are excellent. What exactly do you not understand?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I tend to agree... How are we to understand "many" or "the many" ?

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgressionresulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Paul is using a language strategy here probably more common in his time than now; he repeated the word "many" many times-- poetic license if you will. But given what he has said elsewhere (e.g., “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God… “– Romans 3:23), the first 'many' in verse 19 refers to all humanity, and the second 'many' refers only to the Elect of God (universalism is heresy).

 

[zoidar]

The first 11 verses hardly need explanation.... they are self-explanatory about what we have in Christ through faith. Without Christ, we all deserve to be eliminated. The essence of the gospel-- which if we believe it, brings great joy:. "... God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

The rest of Romans 5 is about original sin and it effects, and how redemption reverses that. Paul repeats himself so that we get it.

There are hundreds of commentaries out there, many of which are excellent. What exactly do you not understand?

I don't think it's as obvious as you believe. As usual we got Calvinists on one side and those who believe in universal atonement on the other. I have an idea of how understand Rom 5, but I'm interested in other views, if there are better explanations.

I'm not happy with the commentaries out there. I think many of them are flawed. Often the doctrine of the churches puts blinders on, so not to see what the scriptures are saying.

 

[συνείδησις]

That may seem radical idea to you, it did to me at first until I studied and learned the scriptures.
See in you way of thinking you choose Him first, but we are not born of God by the will of ourselves.

This demonstrates the peculiar way Calvinist-type ideation frames the discussion into a binary dialectic that GOD either does everything or he does nothing. I never said anything about men choosing GOD first; that conclusion is demanded by your dialectic.

In fact, I believe that GOD speaks to all men and woos those who are responsive to his voice. He chooses those who hearken to him and opens their hearts and minds to see Christ at his appointed time. Then man chooses to repent and believe, at which point the new birth occurs.

 

[zoidar]

Paul is using a language strategy here probably more common in his time than now; he repeated the word "many" many times-- poetic license if you will. But given what he has said elsewhere (e.g., “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God… “– Romans 3:23), the first 'many' in verse 19 refers to all humanity, and the second 'many' refers only to the Elect of God (universalism is heresy).

The problem I have with this is, then the first "the many" is of a different meaning than of the second "the many". Is this likely so?

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

I applaud you for trying to talk to Calvinists, but most of them don't believe the Bible.

I agree that Calvinists do not understand the Bible. They take one or two verses out of context and run with them--so as to protect their exclusive little club. Like the Pharisees before them, they make law that is stricter than God's law. I commend their zeal in their search for God, but have concluded that they have not yet found Him. Some of the meanest "Christians" I have ever met have been Calvinists, including Calvin himself. He had a nine-year-old girl executed for "striking" her mother and was responsible for the death of over 70 people in Geneva, including Michael Servetus who he judged to be a "heretic" over a theological disagreement. Where in the New Testament does it tell us to execute "heretics"? Christians are generally more good-hearted than any other group--but the Calvinists are often quite unloving. We are supposed to be about love more than any other quality.

 

[Knee V]

I tend to agree... How are we to understand "many" or "the many" ?

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgressionresulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

I'll edit that passage to show what I maintain he is saying, and how it is consistent with his over all message:

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of [Adam] [both Jews and Gentiles] died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to [both Jews and Gentiles]. 16 The gift is not like that which came through [Adam] who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from [Adam's] one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from [both Jews' and Gentiles'] many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of [Adam], death reigned through [Adam], much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through [Adam's] one transgression there resulted condemnation to [both Jews and Gentiles] even so through [Christ's] one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to [both Jews and Gentiles]. 19For as through [Adam's] disobedience [both Jews and Gentiles] were made sinners, even so through the obedience of [Christ] [both Jews and Gentiles] will be made righteous.

 

[συνείδησις]

Some of the meanest "Christians" I have ever met have been Calvinists, including Calvin himself. He had a nine-year-old girl executed for "striking" her mother and was responsible for the death of over 70 people in Geneva, including Michael Servetus who he judged to be a "heretic" over a theological disagreement. Where in the New Testament does it tell us to execute "heretics"? Christians are generally more good-hearted than any other group--but the Calvinists are often quite unloving. We are supposed to be about love more than any other quality.

IMO that meanness of spirit and "you have to believe our special way" intolerance is baked into Calvinism via gnostic supremacism that Calvin picked up from the writings of Augustine, who followed the teachings of Manichaean gnostics for 9 years.

 

[Daniel Keeran]

5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgressionresulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is saying both Jews and Gentiles need salvation, not about the unborn or infants that have no moral awareness, and not speaking of innate stains of sin as Origen erroneously states.

 

[Daniel Keeran]

Here is a paper.

 

[zoidar]

I'll edit that passage to show what I maintain he is saying, and how it is consistent with his over all message:

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of [Adam] [both Jews and Gentiles] died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to [both Jews and Gentiles]. 16 The gift is not like that which came through [Adam] who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from [Adam's] one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from [both Jews' and Gentiles'] many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of [Adam], death reigned through [Adam], much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through [Adam's] one transgression there resulted condemnation to [both Jews and Gentiles] even so through [Christ's] one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to [both Jews and Gentiles]. 19For as through [Adam's] disobedience [both Jews and Gentiles] were made sinners, even so through the obedience of [Christ] [both Jews and Gentiles] will be made righteous.

Thanks for sharing your understanding. I think everything fits, except v.19. I believe v.19 must be about those who receive Christ. It feels too loose to say that that Paul just means that Jews and gentiles will be made righteous by Christ. It feels like he specifically means the many that has faith in him will be made righteous.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Interesting link, it should be understood that the word 'atonement', speaks of the time when the mercy seat was sprinkled with blood. It was once a year, it was just the High Priest,he would pass through the veil into the holy of holies. In the Tabranacle and original Temple God was physically present the, along with his glory. The Shekinah as it's called resembled a cloud or mist but it could get so intends it could drive the priests out of the Temple. When the wanted to kill Joshua it appeared above the Tabranacle and some how drove them back. When Moses asked to see God he said no man can see me and live but I will pass before you and my glory will pass before you. When he did it actually made his face glow and the children of Israel made him.wear a veil. The ark of the covenant was there are there were two angels depicted in hammered gold, the anointed cheribim. In the middle was the mercy seat were the blood was sprinkled.

The Jewish Christians went to Jerusalem every year for the holy convocations, Yum Kill or being the most sacred day of the year. When Paul talks to the about atonement that's what he is talking about.

Did you mean Yum Kippur?

 

[DamianWarS]

One chapter I've been reading maybe more than any other chapter in the Bible, that is Romans 5. Since it's a description of the atonement, it's a very central chapter of the Bible. Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5. Let us discuss this chapter and do our best to understand it.

Christ love,

P

Romans 5 parallels how all are sinful through Adam and all are redeemed through Christ. I see the struggle you're presenting that because the text uses parallels then they both follow the same logic. If "all are sinful" then "all are redeemed" hinting of universal salvation. However Romans 5 can't be read in a vacuum and when we do that we're going to get a soteriology bent toward this language utilized by Paul in a small part of his letter.

if you insist on a vacuum universal salvation would be an unusual conclusion. What Roman 5 exposes is a problem then it shows an answer to the problem. It's focus on the solution to me implicitly states that "the fix" is not automatic and it's something we need to engage. If Paul was trying to articulate universal salvation then he dwells too much on details that we would have no control over. His passion towards this topic exposes what the context really is.

 

[zoidar]

I'll edit that passage to show what I maintain he is saying, and how it is consistent with his over all message:

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of [Adam] [both Jews and Gentiles] died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to [both Jews and Gentiles]. 16 The gift is not like that which came through [Adam] who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from [Adam's] one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from [both Jews' and Gentiles'] many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of [Adam], death reigned through [Adam], much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through [Adam's] one transgression there resulted condemnation to [both Jews and Gentiles] even so through [Christ's] one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to [both Jews and Gentiles]. 19For as through [Adam's] disobedience [both Jews and Gentiles] were made sinners, even so through the obedience of [Christ] [both Jews and Gentiles] will be made righteous.

The question I have is also why would Paul use the different words "the many" and "all men" if he means exactly the same thing (Jews and gentiles) ?

 

[Phil Almond]

Romans 5:12-21 is widely regarded as one of the most challenging passages in the Bible. But the key points about sin, condemnation and death are clear:
Sin entered the world through Adam’s sin, and through sin death, and death passed upon all men because all sinned. God chose not to reckon sin as disobeying the law before the law was given (cf Romans 4:15) but nevertheless all died between Adam and Moses. Some died because they, like Adam, disobeyed a direct command of God, and/or their conscience, but even those who did not still died. They must have died because of Adam’s sin. (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:22). So ‘all sinned’ means that Adam’s sin is reckoned to all humanity (apart from Christ). By the offence of the one (Adam) the many died (5:15); the judgement is of one[offence] to condemnation (5:16); by the offence of the[one] (Adam) death reigned through the one (Adam) (5:17); through one offence (of Adam) to all men to condemnation (5:18); through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) many were made sinners (5:19).
So Adam’s sin (offence) results in death for all men; this directly links sin and death. Adam’s sin (offence) also results in the judgment of condemnation for all men; this links sin and condemnation. Given the meaning of ‘condemnation (‘penalty; punishment following condemnation, penal servitude’ – Strong) it is clear that Adam’s sin has resulted in condemnation for all and death for all. And it is clear that death for all is part of the punishment that we all deserve.

 

[zoidar]

Deleted!

 

[zoidar]

Romans 5:12-21 is widely regarded as one of the most challenging passages in the Bible. But the key points about sin, condemnation and death are clear:
Sin entered the world through Adam’s sin, and through sin death, and death passed upon all men because all sinned. God chose not to reckon sin as disobeying the law before the law was given (cf Romans 4:15) but nevertheless all died between Adam and Moses. Some died because they, like Adam, disobeyed a direct command of God, and/or their conscience, but even those who did not still died. They must have died because of Adam’s sin. (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:22). So ‘all sinned’ means that Adam’s sin is reckoned to all humanity (apart from Christ). By the offence of the one (Adam) the many died (5:15); the judgement is of one[offence] to condemnation (5:16); by the offence of the[one] (Adam) death reigned through the one (Adam) (5:17); through one offence (of Adam) to all men to condemnation (5:18); through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) many were made sinners (5:19).
So Adam’s sin (offence) results in death for all men; this directly links sin and death. Adam’s sin (offence) also results in the judgment of condemnation for all men; this links sin and condemnation. Given the meaning of ‘condemnation (‘penalty; punishment following condemnation, penal servitude’ – Strong) it is clear that Adam’s sin has resulted in condemnation for all and death for all. And it is clear that death for all is part of the punishment that we all deserve.

"Romans 5:12-21 is widely regarded as one of the most challenging passages in the Bible."

I understand why ...

Yes, what you say is clear, but that is probably also so because we know man is lost without Christ.

 

[FineLinen]

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The many will be made righteous, how many is how many? Only through Jesus Christ and if they become part of the New Covenant by faith in His blood. It just seems to me that most people are not saved, so many here can not mean so many people like we think of many as in most people.

The many are only those who actually obtain salvation. Jesus said few find eternal life, but many walk the broad path to destruction. But it is of those few that do, they are considered the many, a multitude as in also a large company.
Few
Matthew 7:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [a]Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

But a large amount of people are those few. The few are to be considered a multitude.

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

 

[FineLinen]

The "many" is equal on both sides of the equation. The polus are made sinners, the polus will be made righteous.