Do you tithe?

[Deb4given]

What about from a purely practical standpoint? How is the church supported if no one tithes? I know that a large church with many wealthy people will have a surplus but what about smaller churches that don't have the luxury of wealthy members? God gave His best for me in Jesus, how can I justify to myself giving Him my leftovers?

I attend a small church (<100 members) and only a small % tithe. I'm not judging them as that is between them and God but it does irk me when they get an attitude about the church not being able to provide snacks for their children after Sunday School. "Like, where are we supposed to get the money for snacks, dude?!?!? There sure ain't any in the offering plate."

Sorry, rant over.

excert from web page that I can't post yet. : ) (I'm lazy right now, so I will let him do the work so I won't have to)

"Ex.25:1 "Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 'Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring Me an offering. From everyone who gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering'."
As we know, God commanded Moses to build Him a tent (tabernacle) and He gave detailed plans to Moses. How were the Israelites to meet the building costs? They were on their way from slavery - they would not be expected to have much to give. But as we read on, we find the Israelites, not only met the needs, but had to be told to stop giving, for there was too much in the offering (Ex.36:5-7). I would like to make a couple of observations here:

a. If the giving is truly to God's purpose, His people are willing to give even above the requirements, and

b) If the giving is for God's purpose, leaders will acknowledge when the requirements have been met, and ask God's people to stop bringing more.

Ex.35:21 "Then everyone came whose heart was stirred, and everyone whose spirit was willing, and they brought the Lord's offering for work of the tabernacle of the meeting, for all its service, and for the holy garments."

Where did all these riches come from? If we read Ex.11:2-3 we will see that God planned the whole thing perfectly Himself. He told the Israelites, while still in Egypt, to go to their Egyptian neighbours and ask for gold and silver. God gave them favour in the eyes of the Egyptians. What I am driving at is this: It was God's idea to build, He gave the plan and He organised the funding, the source of funds being the people outside of His kingdom, ie. the unbelievers. "


And in another post I happened to say....God's plans done God's way bring God's provisions.

I do believe that we are to support the church. But, I also believe that God will provide for the church and he has many ways of doing it.

 

[Deb4given]

What about from a purely practical standpoint? How is the church supported if no one tithes? I know that a large church with many wealthy people will have a surplus but what about smaller churches that don't have the luxury of wealthy members? God gave His best for me in Jesus, how can I justify to myself giving Him my leftovers?

I attend a small church (<100 members) and only a small % tithe. I'm not judging them as that is between them and God but it does irk me when they get an attitude about the church not being able to provide snacks for their children after Sunday School. "Like, where are we supposed to get the money for snacks, dude?!?!? There sure ain't any in the offering plate."

Sorry, rant over.

PS....I belong to a small church too... we are known for our giving. Our pastor is rather wealthy......

 

[9-iron]

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

I think the key to this verse is 'matters of the law'. Old story, but how can we keep parts of law and not all of it??

 

[9-iron]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/tithing.htm

Well, since they were the agents of the government, they had to be supported. Do you remember that the twelve tribes were each given land, but they split the tribe of Joseph in to two tribes: Ephriam and Manassah to make up twelve, because Levi was taken out, because Levi was the priestly tribe and they owned nothing. So they had to be supported by all the other tribes. They were given cities in the locations of the other tribal areas and people had to give money to support their livelihood—part of their sheep, part of their crop, and everything had to go to support Levi's tribe, because they were the ones who represented God in the government.

So when you gave your 10% each year you gave it to the government for the care of the country, the nation. Secondly, you gave another 10% every year, which was for the festivals and the religious convocations of the nation. In other words, all of the big things that were held in Jerusalem, all the things that had to be done to prepared for the feasts and so forth in Jerusalem, and all the holy days, and all the Sabbaths, and all the everything else that went with it.

So you pay 10% to the Levites to support them as they operated in behalf of God in the government; you paid 10% to take care of the national festivals, which were many, many. Then you paid another 10% every third year, which went to the poor and the widows. So if you broke that down, you are at about 23.3% per year. Now what that was, was an income tax system. That was a system of taxation to fund the government and its religious activities and its welfare needs.

So when people today say, "We want to tithe now like they did in the Old Testament," they can't stop at 10%, they got 23.3% to start with. In addition to that, you paid a half shekel temple tax every year, in addition to that, if you had a field, you had to harvest the field in a circle and leave the corners open for the poor. It was a profit-sharing plan. If you dropped a bail of hay off your wagon, on the way to the barn, you had to leave that for the poor. So you start adding that up and you are looking at about 25% of their income went to fund the national entity of the government. Now when you get into the New Testament, the Jews were still doing that, because they still had a nation, even though they were an occupied nation, they were still a nation. They were occupied by the Romans, but they weren't run by the Romans. They had their own religious hierarchy, they had their own school systems, they had their own festivals, and all that stuff, and so they had to take care of that. They had their own priesthood; it all had to go on, that is why Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's," in other words, pay the Romans what they asked, and render to God the things that are God's. So just to clarify that at the very beginning, when you are talking about a tithe, you are talking about the "taxation." Now when you translate that over into our time, it is kind of interesting to me that the base tax system in our country is about 20%, you add sales tax to that and you probably get another 5%, we are on about the same level they were then--about 25% of our income goes out for taxation, if you are in the normal tax bracket and with normal deductions, unless you are really doing well, but then they get you in different ways, because the more money you have the more things you buy, the more things you buy, the higher sales tax you pay, so maybe it comes out even harder for people who have more. Nonetheless, that's taxation. OK? Giving was always something different, always you gave whatever you wanted, like when they built the tabernacle and God said, "Let every man bring whatever he purposes in his heart; let him do it willingly, whatever he wants to give." And they kept coming, bringing so much that finally they said, "Stop, don't bring anymore--that's enough." So giving is always a "freewill," it's always an expression of love and appreciation--whatever you want to do.

Now you come to 2 Corinthians, chapter eight, and you learn how the church gave. The church knew there was a need so the church gave. How did they give? Well, it wasn't 10%, it says, "The churches in Macedonia, 2Cor 8:1, gave abundantly out of deep poverty. It says that their deep poverty abounded to the riches of their liberality." Here was a very poor church in Macedonia, very poor, but they gave generously, out of their hearts liberally. In fact, verse three says, they gave beyond their ability. They gave more than they should have given--more then they could of given, and the reason they did that was in verse five, because they first gave themselves. I mean when you give yourself then everything you have belongs to the Lord. So, Paul is saying to the Corinthians, "If you want a lesson in giving, look at these people--out of deep poverty they gave everything they had." In fact, they gave more then they should of, but they did that because they had already given themselves to the Lord. Now you have the key motive in giving; what is the right motive in giving? It is not to get anything. It is in that whole hearted abandonment, "they gave everything."

I am not advocating this viewpoint. I just thought I would post it for a different perspective.

 

[LynneClomina]

LOL, anyone have any camels we can swallow or knats we can strain?

matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

eh, so long as we don't forget the big ones, we shouldn't forget the little ones either!!!

 

[LynneClomina]

Letting my mine go round and round today at work. In Genesis 14:16 it says that Abe brought back everything he won after defeating his enemy, he gave Melchizedek a 1/10 of that, his winnings (Genesis 14:20), his abudance? Not his normal day to day living expenses? btw: I'm for tithing just wondering what everyones view is on that.

yep, that was way before the law... anything that didnt get "removed" in the NT still stands.... we are to give what God asks of us JOYFULLY... if we don't it's more of an insult to Him than anything, i think....

 

[LynneClomina]

No, I don't tithe anymore. After actually studying the bible for myself about what God said, I learned that I am suppose to give what God lays on my heart.

Did you know that there were 3 different tithes in the bible, and one of them was suppose to be saved all year long and then you got to throw a party for your family? Bet you didn't know that, cause pastors don't preach that. Did you know that Malachi was not about you, but about the priests and THEIR robbing God?

I have been a spirit-filled Christian for 24 years, I tithed and gave, I did all that I thought I was suppose to do, and then I actually studied it out for myself. What an eye opener.

When I was doing my studies, I also came across a great website called The Truth about Tithing...something like that. It has all the scriptures and it explains it so well. When you get done reading, you won't be able to refute what you have read, it is entirely biblical, and your eyes will be open. He doesn't give his point of view very much, he just shows you in the Word how deceived we have been.

I know this is an individual thing between you and God. But, if you have been faithful with your tithe and you still aren't making it very well, don't shake your fist at God and ask Him why, because the Word is very clear.

God never blessed me so much in my life as He has since i've tithed with JOY. that makes all the difference.

if you have a link you think we should read, could you post the link???

 

[LynneClomina]

I am always surprised when people say the New Testament does not command us to tithe:

Matthew 23:23 (Jesus speaking)

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Don't know how to get around that, no matter how many things I read that say we are not under the law to tithe.

hey, you beat me to it!!!!!

 

[LynneClomina]

excert from web page that I can't post yet. : ) (I'm lazy right now, so I will let him do the work so I won't have to)

"Ex.25:1 "Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 'Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring Me an offering. From everyone who gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering'."
As we know, God commanded Moses to build Him a tent (tabernacle) and He gave detailed plans to Moses. How were the Israelites to meet the building costs? They were on their way from slavery - they would not be expected to have much to give. But as we read on, we find the Israelites, not only met the needs, but had to be told to stop giving, for there was too much in the offering (Ex.36:5-7). I would like to make a couple of observations here:

a. If the giving is truly to God's purpose, His people are willing to give even above the requirements, and

b) If the giving is for God's purpose, leaders will acknowledge when the requirements have been met, and ask God's people to stop bringing more.

Ex.35:21 "Then everyone came whose heart was stirred, and everyone whose spirit was willing, and they brought the Lord's offering for work of the tabernacle of the meeting, for all its service, and for the holy garments."

Where did all these riches come from? If we read Ex.11:2-3 we will see that God planned the whole thing perfectly Himself. He told the Israelites, while still in Egypt, to go to their Egyptian neighbours and ask for gold and silver. God gave them favour in the eyes of the Egyptians. What I am driving at is this: It was God's idea to build, He gave the plan and He organised the funding, the source of funds being the people outside of His kingdom, ie. the unbelievers. "


And in another post I happened to say....God's plans done God's way bring God's provisions.

I do believe that we are to support the church. But, I also believe that God will provide for the church and he has many ways of doing it.

that was an offering for a specific purpose. if we have a building fund, and meet the needed amount to build, we shore dont need to offer into it any more.

also, that was an offering, not a tithe.

 

[Deb4given]

God never blessed me so much in my life as He has since i've tithed with JOY. that makes all the difference.

if you have a link you think we should read, could you post the link???

I will try and post the link. I couldn't earlier because I am new and I didn't have enough of something.

If you really read this link, and you can show that what he says isn't right, then I will listen.
Truth

 

[LynneClomina]

oh, so ya wont listen until i can prove him wrong??? nah, i aint gonna try!

 

[VigilanteHamster]

I don't tithe... I have no income to tithe from!

 

[muffler dragon]

I am always surprised when people say the New Testament does not command us to tithe:

Matthew 23:23 (Jesus speaking)

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Don't know how to get around that, no matter how many things I read that say we are not under the law to tithe.

I'm going to try to go through these in order.

Concerning Abraham, he gave according to what he had won in battle. This had nothing to do with day-to-day operations. There is only one instance recorded in the Torah of Abraham ever giving anything like this. Therefore, you cannot base this belief upon a pre-law assessment.

As for what you have written above,

For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

You are missing the fact that the tithe was of produce. It was not a monetary sum. Furthermore, this has to do with the scribes and Pharisees. They were neglecting the heart of the law. That is essentially what Yeshua was talking with them about.

As I continue through the posts, I'll respond where necessary.

 

[muffler dragon]

Paul already addressed the sabbath. You cannot be justified by a 'day', or new moons, or sabbaths, or food or drink.

At the cross, what happened?
- some things were abolished, eg. ceremonial law
- some things went from physical to spiritual, eg. circumcision of the flesh to circumcision of the heart
- some things went through unchanged, eg. Davidic praise from Psalms, tithe/offerings

One of our 'discoveries' as a Christian is figuring out which did what.

You're not completely right with your statement, but we can discuss that elsewhere so that we maintain the OP.

 

[muffler dragon]

What about from a purely practical standpoint? How is the church supported if no one tithes? I know that a large church with many wealthy people will have a surplus but what about smaller churches that don't have the luxury of wealthy members? God gave His best for me in Jesus, how can I justify to myself giving Him my leftovers?

I attend a small church (<100 members) and only a small % tithe. I'm not judging them as that is between them and God but it does irk me when they get an attitude about the church not being able to provide snacks for their children after Sunday School. "Like, where are we supposed to get the money for snacks, dude?!?!? There sure ain't any in the offering plate."

Sorry, rant over.

Forgiven:

There are two ways to address your thought:

1) I always give an amount of money to the organization I attend simply for operational costs.
2) Just as Paul did, so should the leaders. Paul maintained a job as a tent maker. He did not take a 'salary' from the people he taught.

 

[muffler dragon]

yep, that was way before the law... anything that didnt get "removed" in the NT still stands.... we are to give what God asks of us JOYFULLY... if we don't it's more of an insult to Him than anything, i think....

Once again, not completely true. Removal versus fulfillment are two totally different things. Just a comment and no intent for derailing thread.

 

[muffler dragon]

God never blessed me so much in my life as He has since i've tithed with JOY. that makes all the difference.

if you have a link you think we should read, could you post the link???

Are you advocating a cause and effect relationship with G-d?

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Forgiven:

There are two ways to address your thought:

1) I always give an amount of money to the organization I attend simply for operational costs.
2) Just as Paul did, so should the leaders. Paul maintained a job as a tent maker. He did not take a 'salary' from the people he taught.

Our pastor works a full time job. Does that mean he is responsible for paying the church's expenses along with his own? My rant wasn't really about tithing in general, just the nerve of some people who don't give to the church yet expect it to provide them with what they think a church should provide.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

excert from web page that I can't post yet. : ) (I'm lazy right now, so I will let him do the work so I won't have to)

"Ex.25:1 "Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 'Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring Me an offering. From everyone who gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering'."
As we know, God commanded Moses to build Him a tent (tabernacle) and He gave detailed plans to Moses. How were the Israelites to meet the building costs? They were on their way from slavery - they would not be expected to have much to give. But as we read on, we find the Israelites, not only met the needs, but had to be told to stop giving, for there was too much in the offering (Ex.36:5-7). I would like to make a couple of observations here:

a. If the giving is truly to God's purpose, His people are willing to give even above the requirements, and

b) If the giving is for God's purpose, leaders will acknowledge when the requirements have been met, and ask God's people to stop bringing more.

Ex.35:21 "Then everyone came whose heart was stirred, and everyone whose spirit was willing, and they brought the Lord's offering for work of the tabernacle of the meeting, for all its service, and for the holy garments."

Where did all these riches come from? If we read Ex.11:2-3 we will see that God planned the whole thing perfectly Himself. He told the Israelites, while still in Egypt, to go to their Egyptian neighbours and ask for gold and silver. God gave them favour in the eyes of the Egyptians. What I am driving at is this: It was God's idea to build, He gave the plan and He organised the funding, the source of funds being the people outside of His kingdom, ie. the unbelievers. "


And in another post I happened to say....God's plans done God's way bring God's provisions.

I do believe that we are to support the church. But, I also believe that God will provide for the church and he has many ways of doing it.

God always provides for us but it seems to be from visitors who are blessed and give a significant offering.

 

[Kelly]

Should we not be bragging/boasting/proclaiming our tithing practices, especially if it's over 10%?