Do you think it's Christian to own guns?

[rubyinprogress]

Wow... Conspiracy theories are everywhere in the US... I guess it only makes sense that conspiracy theorists would buy into the whole "guns!" and "freedoms!" language...

The tone of your posts comes across as sarcastic and rude. If you've been reading the thread, you'll notice "conspiracy theories" are not confined to the US. Apparently there is a program airing on Australian television about supposedly about American preppers. If the characters in the show are even real, they have been handpicked because of their extreme views. Read the Bible. It warns of wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famine, pestilence, disease, earthquakes, etc. The preppers I have encountered simply read this and PREPARE.

Also, I think that much of your negative attitude comes from a total lack of understanding of United States history. We have the so called "gun culture" and 2nd Amendment rights for a reason. Why did the American Revolution take place? Look at the history. Under English law "taxation without representation" was illegal. The Founding Fathers did not resort to violence immediately. When King George first began to tax the American colonies to recoup the expense of the French and Indian wars, the colonists protested. At that point they were not protesting the TAXES, but TAXATION without REPRESENTATION. Even some members of Parliament agreed with the colonies and were willing to give the colonists representation in Parliament. The King refused to obey English law and pushed until eventually war did occur. The history of the US is important in understanding the mindset. We are not about violence for the sake of violence. These are firmly held beliefs, based on the fact that in the past the government did not obey the law and the possibility that this may happen in the future. The idea of a well armed society was about the government's power being balanced by personal responsibility. Unfortunately, we have allowed much of our freedoms to be eroded and the gun issue has survived. For instance, the founding father's wrote in the Constitution that there would be no income tax. The reason was because income tax is essentially a form of slavery. However, the income tax issue was amended and now we are essentially slaves working several months to pay the government before we get to keep our earnings. Mocking and ridiculing our history and culture is disrespectful as it would be to any other culture.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Goliath had four brothers, also giants. Five stones, five brothers.
I don't think David assumed he would die, I don't remember that, could you expound on that point. Thanks.

The brothers were not there and they were killed at a later time.

Nehemia covered this and I tried to find it. Wound up watching this one just now, you might find it interesting.

 

[rubyinprogress]

Jesus made a whip out of cords and used it to drive the sellers out of the temple courtyard. The idea that Jesus is only about love is incorrect. Read through Jesus' conversations with Pharisees and Saduccees. He called them out on their evil in very plain language.

Jesus IS all about love, but love is not the ooey gooey, softness that we sometimes believe it to be. Love sets limits, gives out consequences for wrong behavior and rebukes those in error when needed.

 

[ChronosFT]

A few years ago more people in Philadelphia "voted" for a candidate for governor than were registered in Philadelphia to vote. House pets, fictional characters and dead people are "voting." So how legal are the elections?

I don't see how this is possible. You have either misstated the issue or confused it with something else.

Philadelphia County is coterminous with the City of Philadelphia, so election results for the county are the same election results for the city.

The population of Philadelphia County has remained steady for the past 15 years, and so have the election results, except for 2014 when fewer votes were cast relative to registered voters.


2014 Election Results -- 378,807 votes cast





2010 Election Results -- 422,783 votes cast





2006 Election Results -- 428,841 votes cast





2002 Election Results -- 404,025 votes cast

 

[rubyinprogress]

Verse, please.



Cite the verses where He gave "very clear instructions" about self defense.



First of all, Jesus didn't forbid us from being angry. He forbid us from being unjustly angry.



Why?



And yet, you can't even post one verse.



Actually, it's you who doesn't understand "turn the other cheek", as "turn the other cheek" refers to not seeking revenge for a personal offense, not allowing someone to murder your family.

Turn the other cheek refers to someone giving you a backhanded slap (something that was illegal to do to an equal, but could be done to a subordinate) and you turn the other cheek (requiring them to now slap you as an equal). And in any case, even if this is not the correct interpretation, it is a SLAP, not a lethal attack on your person or your family. Jesus is telling us not to be easily offended or retaliate over trivial things. If someone sues you for a piece of clothing, give him two. If someone conscripts you to carry his gear one mile, carry it two. These are relatively inconsequential insults and humiliations. How in the world did this get interpreted to mean we cannot defend against a potentially lethal attack?!?!?!

 

[santiagoamr]

Apart from those needing them for living - do you think people should own guns?
I cannot tie Jesus up with a gun-owner that has them for the sake of having them

Luke 22:36

Then he told them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one.

There are also many reason to have a gun:
1.- Because you like them
2.- For self defence
3.- For sporting

Is it necessary? It depends but it was not necessary to have poured valuable perfume on Christ either. It can even be a luxury.

 

[santiagoamr]

Read the Bible, not just the parts the unbelievers like. God, who is the same yesterday, today and forever, told His people to not only defend themselves but to utterly destroy whole cities. That same God is love. We don't understand it, but it is all true. I would argue that it is unchristian to not be willing to use whatever force is necessary to defend the defenseless, not just myself, but my neighbor as well. If someone broke into one of my neighbors homes and attempted to harm their children it would be evil of me not to do whatever it took to stop the aggressor. Somehow people have forgotten what the Bible has to say about innocence and guilt and perverted it to where they claim that the guilty have more standing with God than the innocent, and that is calling good evil and evil good.

We do understand it:

1.- God was teaching.
2.- God was preparing his people
3.- God was establishing his Church

Life is not that important what is important is what comes after it.

 

[rubyinprogress]

and men need a gun?

Men are designed by God to think differently than women. They are natural protectors. A man will consider it his duty to protect his family. God wired him that way. Don't judge what you do not understand.

 

[rubyinprogress]

So what am I seeing here? are you saying one I shouldn't presume God will protect me? - aren't you a spirit-filled Christian?

Here's an example. I once decided to pick up a hitch hiker, but when I turned to pick him up (I had passed him on a winding road) my car died. I restarted it and it died again. I prayed and decided NOT to go back for the hitchhiker. I restarted my car and it ran and I turned around to continue my journey and the car never did that again. God protected me. Does that mean I can go around picking up hitchhikers and God will protect me? NO! It means I needed to wise up and God was gracious to protect me in my naivete'.

 

[Hank77]

The brothers were not there and they were killed at a later time.

Nehemia covered this and I tried to find it. Wound up watching this one just now, you might find it interesting.

Thanks, I will definitely watch this later, it is one of few of Nehemia's that I don't think I have watched.
However, I still don't see in scripture where David assumed he would die, God specifically told him to take five stones, even though he only needed one to kill Goliath. I'm sure God knew he would only need one.
But I'll check it out.

 

[ChronosFT]

If a lawful citizen encounters a person with intent or in the act of shedding another's blood, they have a moral obligation to come to the aid of innocent blood. You can't defend innocent life if the aggressor is armed and you are not.

How does one determine quickly whether the a person is innocent or guilty? Even if the person is not innocent but yet guilty, are you supporting vigilantism?

The police cannot be everywhere and they also take a long time to get out to rural areas. I would not be comfortable unarmed in a rural or suburban environment and not have the means to defend my family.

To each his own. I grew up in a rural area and my father had a rifle for hunting, but not a handgun. The rifle was only used for deer hunting once each fall. I now live in a suburban environment and I have never felt like I needed a gun.

Sure Americans have some gun nuts. Most of them like to shoot and are law abiding citizens. They also don't get robbed, attacked, raped or murdered.

Certainly, America has some gun nuts. Maybe they are law abiding citizens, but to say that they don't get robbed, attacked, raped or murdered is a rather broad statement that may miss the larger point.

Here is the 2013 stats by the CDC for firearm fatalities by state. The most likely place to experience death by firearm (all situations) also happens to be in the states where firearms are more present:





But from the viewpoint of violent crime, this article from USA Today quotes FBI statistics for 2013 for violent crimes by state. The top 4 states also have high availability of firearms: Alaska, New Mexico, Nevada and Tennessee:





There is a correlation here of higher gun availability/ownership to higher rates of violent crime. Maybe there are other factors involved, but I think it's too broad a statement to imply that gun owners are less likely to be subjects of violent crime. The stats contradict your assertion.

The majority of gun owners are responsible and take shooting classes and certifications.

Do you have a verifiable source for this? There are approximately 100,000,000 people in the US that own at least one firearm, and statistically speaking, they own 3 firearms each. If the majority of firearm owners (50,000,001) were taking shooting classes and getting certifications within the past 5 years (just one class or certification), that would mean that there are 10,000,001 firearm owners doing this each year. Mind you, I'm not talking about people who merely go to a gun range and practice occasionally, as I don't consider that a shooting class or certification. The number of gun fails during the same period indicates that either people are not routinely going to shooting classes or getting certified in the use of their firearms, or these same firearm owners often forget any training they have received.

The age distribution in the US in 2000 (which won't be different for 2015):





This shows that about 7% of the US population is aged 15-19 (male and female). That's about 21,000,000 people who could be new drivers each year. I'm being generous with that number because in the range of 15-19 only about 16-19 are typically eligible for a license and they only get licensed once. Also, the likely ratio of females going to firearm certification is much, much lower than males. The 21 million figure is for the entire range, but still, let's go with it. Are you saying that each year we have half as many people getting certified to use firearms as we do getting licensed to drive a car? Just on the face of it, that seems like a very high estimate of firearm certification. The likely number of new drivers each year is probably around 4-7 million. This would indicate that more people (10 million) are getting certified for firearms each year than obtaining a driver's license. Again, on the face of it, I cannot see how that is possible.

Trying to find statistics on the number of people attending firearm classes or getting certifications is tricky. There generally is no requirement for people to do either unless they are getting certified for concealed carry, which is a dramatically lower number than than those attending any kind of class or certification, much less firearm owners nationwide.

 

[northwye]

That age distribution - by sex - graph shown above by chronosFT is interesting. I knew that the percentage of the population over 70 or over 80 differs by state, and quite a bit for some states. There are more people over 70 or over 80 in California, Wisconsin and especially in Minnesota than in the Deep South or in Missouri. It looks like social-economic status is an important variable in determining percent of people over 70, along with the attractiveness of the state for older people to move to. States like Florida, Texas, Arizona and California would attract older people. But for Minnesota and Wisconsin to a lesser extent it must be the higher social-economic stratus that is the factor determining number of old people in the state. People of higher social-economic status live longer.

The above graph says that men between 80 and 84 make up only about one percent of the American population. And our generation - the Korean War generation - seems to be living longer than our offspring the younger set of Baby Boomers.

 

[nomadictheist]

If we stick to the OP, the question asked was whether or not Christians should own guns. Self-defense is only one possible use for a gun. Others include marksmanship, hunting, and deterring pests from farmland or ranches. For example, I know somebody who raises sheep and uses a shotgun to drive away coyotes. Other people use them to keep groundhogs out of gardens.

Maybe Christians shouldn't own cars either. There are more fatal vehicular accidents in the United States every year than there are fatal shootings. So if you're a Christian, better ditch the car too. Remember, God will provide and protect - He didn't say you needed to have a car... And remember, Jesus didn't even own a donkey. He walked everywhere.

While you're at it, get rid of your house. Remember, "foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head..."

Better not have a family either. Jesus didn't, after all. "Whoever does the will of my Father are my mother and my brothers and my sisters..."

For those talking about Jesus "specific instructions" not to ever defend ourselves, perhaps you would like to post the scripture supporting your claims? I've already posted the scripture from Luke where Jesus instructs His disciples to buy a sword (swords were commonly used for harmless activities like deterring robbers, etc.).

Personally, I don't currently own guns. But I have plenty of Christian friends that do. And I may choose to for the purpose of hunting when I have a little more time in my life to do that.

Incidentally, I'd be careful of anyone who says "Christians have it all wrong and I have it all figured out." Sure, there's a lot of Christians that are not on the right path, but there are plenty who are serving God as well - and we're called to community and humility, not isolation and pride.

 

[ldonjohn]

Would it have been a sin if He had?

In Luke 22:36 Jesus told his disciples that if they didn't have a sword to defend themselves to sell their coat/cloak and buy one.

 

[Lightsped]

Without reading all 14 pages of this topic i will say that if owning a gun is sin, then i am in deep trouble. I am a gun collector. I do not hunt, have no desire to shoot people, and am not a prepper scared that the world will end. For me, i am a collector. Some people collect baseball cards, some collect stamps, and some collect automobiles. I collect guns. Guns are machines. I have never known of any machine that is a sin to own. It is not the tool, but the person who uses it. If it is a sin to own a gun then perhaps we should all get rid of our cars. People driving cars kill way more people then people using guns. This is really kind of a silly topic when you think about it logically.

 

[dfreeland311]

Without reading all 14 pages of this topic i will say that if owning a gun is sin, then i am in deep trouble. I am a gun collector. I do not hunt, have no desire to shoot people, and am not a prepper scared that the world will end. For me, i am a collector. Some people collect baseball cards, some collect stamps, and some collect automobiles. I collect guns. Guns are machines. I have never known of any machine that is a sin to own. It is not the tool, but the person who uses it. If it is a sin to own a gun then perhaps we should all get rid of our cars. People driving cars kill way more people then people using guns. This is really kind of a silly topic when you think about it logically.

Of course, if you're abiding by the logic in this thread, then we're all sexual sinners because we are all using computers and each and every one of us are only 3-4 clicks away from pornography.

 

[Hank77]

Here is the 2013 stats by the CDC for firearm fatalities by state. The most likely place to experience death by firearm (all situations) also happens to be in the states where firearms are more present:

I also posted from a report yesterday based on CDC reports. Did you know that of those Fatalities 61% of those are suicides, not crimes, accidents, etc.
Guns are not the Cause of suicides. It seems to me that there are other social issues that need to be addressed to stop so many suicides from happening.

 

[ldonjohn]

Personally I do not know any real Christians who have turned from Christianity. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. (Matthew 7:21-23). For many years I was a CINO. (Christian in name only). I talked the talk and walked the walk, but I was not a genuine believer in Jesus for forgiveness of my sin and a new life in Him. Jesus told us that the world hates Him and would hate us, Christians. Many people are looking for an excuse to as you say "turn away" from Christianity because they "hate" being told they are sinners who need a Savior. They want to continue in their sin and be their own god. They will point to a criminal action by someone who identifies himself/herself as a Christian, but is not one, and blame all of Christianity. They are looking for reasons/excuses to justify their continued rejection of Christianity. Before I became a real Christian I criticized Christians calling them self righteous hypocrites who thought they were better than non Christians; I was using that as an excuse to justify my decision to continue in unbelief. After I became a true "believer" I realized that I was the hypocrite.

In Luke 22:36 Jesus told his disciples that if they did not have a sword to defend themselves to sell their cloak and buy one. In other word "to defend themselves" with a weapon.

 

[A greater Hope]

Apart from those needing them for living - do you think people should own guns?
I cannot tie Jesus up with a gun-owner that has them for the sake of having them

The question is,
Is there ever a need for one if Jesus is on your side. I think we should ask Jesus when Peter took out the sword to defend Jesus? Answer no peter/children I am your sword and avenger I will fight for you.

 

[Hank77]

Without reading all 14 pages of this topic i will say that if owning a gun is sin, then i am in deep trouble. I am a gun collector. I do not hunt, have no desire to shoot people, and am not a prepper scared that the world will end. For me, i am a collector. Some people collect baseball cards, some collect stamps, and some collect automobiles. I collect guns. Guns are machines. I have never known of any machine that is a sin to own. It is not the tool, but the person who uses it. If it is a sin to own a gun then perhaps we should all get rid of our cars. People driving cars kill way more people then people using guns. This is really kind of a silly topic when you think about it logically.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with collecting guns.
I know a woman who collects swords and there are a few battle axes thrown in too.