Do you think it's Christian to own guns?

[Hank77]

Americans are a bit concerned that if they abuse another driver that he or she might come at them with a gun.

It's much more likely that they are concerned about the hefty traffic ticket, points against their license, and higher car insurance premiums, if they cause an accident.

If they figure that you aren't really a serious case you might want to bring along a copy of War and Peace as it could be a long wait

lol

Jesus didn't need a sword, just like He wouldn't need a gun in today's world. The next time you calm a storm by speaking to it, disappear from among a crowd of people intent on killing you,

Amen. No one could kill/murder Jesus just because they wanted to, and no one did until the time had come for Him to give Himself as God had planned.

Jesus would be ashamed if we owned guns. He came to abolish the laws of the Old Testament (eye for and eye).

Understand that an eye for an eye is about exacting revenge for something that has already been done to you.
ie. Someone puts out your eye, so you put out his. Jesus said don't do THAT.

Jesus didn't even raise a finger when being crucified but instead thought if God wills it.

Of coarse He didn't. If He had He wouldn't have been laying down His life for you. Instead it would have been taken from Him which is not the same thing at all. There is no greater love than to lay down your life for a friend, and Jesus did it for people who were not even His friends.

To be Christian is to be a follower of Christ, not a follower of the second amendment.

Being a gun owner is not being a Follower of the second amendment anymore than deciding to own a car is. Both are lawful to own, under the law, but that doesn't mean you have to own one.
VERY different than being follower of Jesus, there is no choice in that if one wants to live and not die. All the privileges (blessings) that come with that decision are just that, added grace from a loving Father.

 

[South Bound]

When Jesus disciples requested permission to call down fire and destroy their enemies, what did Jesus say to them? Well, I will tell you, He said, "You do not know what spirit you are of, for the Son of Man did not come to destroy the lives of men, but to save them."

Wow. That's some eisegesis you came up with there.

 

[liberal.luke]

Being a gun owner is not being a Follower of the second amendment anymore than deciding to own a car is. Both are lawful to own, under the law, but that doesn't mean you have to own one.
VERY different than being follower of Jesus, there is no choice in that if one wants to live and not die. All the privileges (blessings) that come with that decision are just that, added grace from a loving Father.

Exactly: the main idea is if choosing to excersize the right to own a gun is Christ-like (outside of those who hunt or shoot for sport) or is choosing not to own one Christ-like. If you're using it for self defense, in war, to threaten, to protect inanimate objects like land, no way.

 

[SonOfThor]

Apart from those needing them for living - do you think people should own guns?
I cannot tie Jesus up with a gun-owner that has them for the sake of having them

Sorry as I did not take the time to read all of the responses in this post. But if Jesus instructed his disciples to buy a sword for protection, I honestly don't think he would mind us owning guns for the same reason.

Luke 22:36
New International Version
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

 

[ChronosFT]

We know that Peter carried a sword in John 18:10 which would make us wonder if he or others carried swords during their travels with Jesus to ward of any potential bandits.

A sword is for close personal protection as it can only injury someone within the length of the sword. A firearm is in a different class. A sword can also be used as a tool for other jobs, whereas a firearm has one specific purpose.

 

[ChronosFT]

Many years ago I heard a sermon where he said it was not Christian to have insurances.

Honestly, sounds like that preacher wants more money in his pocket.

In actual fact I believe that most people would be better off if they cut out a lot of their insurances as I did some 30 years ago. I was paying all these insurances on my house, car etc and thought - 'So what would it cost if I lost these? I would just have to start from scratch getting some Salvation Army donations etc..( that I had supported for many years) - and thought, 'that wouldn't be so bad it would be a new challenge and the money I will save will pay for that anyway' and I would be relying on Jesus much more to protect me.

I guess if you like that kind of challenge, then more power to you. Personally, I wouldn't want to go through something like that. I'm sorry that you feel that insurance companies only want to line their own pockets. I have worked in the insurance industry for almost 30 years. I have paid some huge expenses that people otherwise would not be able to pay. When a breadwinner dies and the rest of the family has nothing it is more than challenge -- it's often devastating. A mother with 3 kids without a life insurance payment is forced to go find someone else to help her out. That's usually a new husband. Maybe Jesus wants her to remarry, but she may not be in a position to choose the right man, and when she chooses the first one who can take of her that man may not handle her or her children well. A life insurance payment gives her time to be judicious in choosing a new husband.

In actual fact I saved money by getting rid of my insurances.

Of course you did! If I stopped paying for all my insurance right now I would end up with a lot of money in the bank, but then if something happened I may not have enough to cover the loss.

If people relied on Jesus more they would have a lot more money. Now I know there will be cases where people would have been in trouble had they not had one but overall I think most people would be better off without if they have Jesus.

What if Jesus told you one day that you should get insurance? Would you hear his message, or would you think it's just an advertisement?

 

[ChronosFT]

Yes these things happen, but truly when you look at it, you say 'a wise man leaves an inheritance for children', do you say that money from an insurance firm is an inheritance? I disagree. I see nothing in the bible that says He blesses us with insurance money. Men who walked in His ways were blessed with land etc That family could be blessed by walking with Him and it's no shame to be poor
Debt is a big problem these days. People take on too much. When they sell their homes they don't get enough to cover the loans.

But in the bible he also doesn't bless us with a lot of other modern things we have: cars, electricity, running water, septic ... or the internet ... If we didn't interact with things that weren't listed in the bible, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.

The bible can also be interpreted to support many things that were never conceived. To use your example of insurance, the purpose is to help those in need and I think that was a central teaching of Jesus. Insurance allows that idea to expand so that you don't have to know the person in need or how much they need. Floods and fires that cause damage to many in a community may prevent that entire community from being able to help itself, whereas insurance allows others who are farther away to provide immediate financial assistance. Insurance is socialism, and socialism is helping your fellow mankind. Insurance seems to me to be a very direct idea from Jesus with a modern twist.

Sorry if I seem to be harping about insurance.

 

[malvina]

Hi Malvina, thanks for starting a good conversation, and I hope your still with it to hear my comment. I haven't read all of the comments, but I rather doubt you've run into some of what I have to say.

I am a disciple of Jesus, by which I mean a student of his teaching and a follower, however faltering, of his way. I do not call myself a Christian because I don't think most "leaders" withing the Christian faith have strayed from the way Jesus laid out.

One of those ways was the path of nonviolence. For that reason, I am a pacifist resolved to renounce the use of force in all of my human affairs. By following his teaching, particularly from his Sermons on the Mount and on the Plain, I am rendered by God secure from all harm, so I have no need for a gun. He said, "Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all of those things (our material needs) will be given to you." I know that to be the case, and I know that my own and my loved ones safety and security are best "defended" by never resorting to violence myself--not even in self-defense.

However, it is my position on laws pertaining to guns that I believe is different from most. To begin, I think all "kingdoms" (we would say nation-states nowadays) wherein some people rule other people by force and coercion (that is how all rulers rule) are contrary to God's wishes as revealed by Jesus. Luke's account of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness shows that those with the authority and glory of leaders of nation-states have been given that authority by Satan. God is mankind's only legitimate lawmaker, all others making laws, rules, regulations, etc., are usurping His authority. Any human legislation, including gun laws, are contrary to the wisdom and teaching of Jesus. For that reason, I am opposed to any rules, regulations or legislation restricting people's freedom to own and peacefully use guns. Those who turn to government to control the benign behavior of their fellows are no better than any other thugs who use force and coercion to have their way. There is no need for guns among those who understand Jesus' teaching, just as there is no need for human legislation.

Keep the faith

Thankyou Ned, I agree that those that know Jesus do not need a gun for protection I have proved that during my Christian life where I have been confronted with the devil through various people that could have killed me.
First in UK where I first became a Christian. The Charismatic C. of E picked up I had spiritual gifts for healing and deliverance even though at the time I had hang- ups as long as your arm. Any new Christian can be used if they have faith and show these gifts.
I was called upon to help a girl who, through her ex-husband who had been in black magic, had been cursed. When they began to pray for her she came out with TWO voices one saying it was the devil and ordering her to get a knife and kill me. She set out in the night to find me and while the priest was praying God showed Him and he met her and averted her mission
Also, when I ran my Christian business, a man walked into the Drop-in Centre with a knife saying he was gong to kill me.
I said, 'In the name of Jesus give me that knife' He immediately collapsed on the floor.
I've seen it all! and I strongly believe that if someone gets close to Jesus they have no need for violent protection especially a gun that can kill or destroy a person. I would say this is a total lack of faith. I also realise that nothing anyone might say will alter the minds of American gun-owners who have always been that way. As a child we was told you were 'click-happy'
-- that's quite a long time ago now! and old habits die hard.

 

[ChronosFT]

Debt is a big problem these days. People take on too much. When they sell their homes they don't get enough to cover the loans.

Yes, debt is a huge problem these days. Has been for a long time, really. While the idea of debt is in the bible, the exorbitant interest and fees that people pay are not. A community credit union is socialist banking -- the members help each other and it keeps the costs lower.

A significant cause of debt is over-consumption. Capitalism has its advantages, but also some big disadvantages, one of which is out-of-control consumption. We shouldn't have palatial estates and 5 cars. We should live much more sparingly.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I am inclined to agree that Jesus would not have owned a gun. He stands for loving enemies, not killing them. However, one must take into the "hard" or "dark sayings" of Jesus, such as Lk. 14 and Math. 34, where he is credited with saying that no one can come to him and be a disciple unless he hates his father, mother, wife and children; and that he does not come to bring peace, but a sword, that he intends to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, etc. Since I believe we can not know the historical Jesus, only the Christ of kerygma and myth, I am included to view such statements as simply ones put in the mouth of Christ by later authors.

I have found that it's necessary to understand the Jewish culture of that time in order to understand what Yeshua/Jesus was talking about. Jewish understanding was that when Messiah came it would be preceded by a time of disharmony within families. He did not come to bring hate, but was saying that His teachings would. It was not His goal but because the world would not like what He taught, it would bring dissension between family members. Therefore, denying the natural inclination to back away from Him because of the family dissension caused by following Him, would be necessary.

 

[Hank77]

A sword is for close personal protection as it can only injury someone within the length of the sword. A firearm is in a different class. A sword can also be used as a tool for other jobs, whereas a firearm has one specific purpose.

What difference does that make, it's not like you have a gun and the other guy only has a sword? A gun is a tool as well, right now, this very minute, there is a front shoulder of an elk sitting on my kitchen island thawing out a little so it can be cut up and packaged (processed the other shoulder yesterday). The elk has been hanging to age and it has been very cold here at night.

Exactly: the main idea is if choosing to excersize the right to own a gun is Christ-like (outside of those who hunt or shoot for sport) or is choosing not to own one Christ-like. If you're using it for self defense, in war, to threaten, to protect inanimate objects like land, no way.

That is Your own personal view but it is not found in scripture. Please quote scripture from God's Word.
Jesus didn't tell Peter get rid of the sword, He said to put it away because it was time for God's plan, for Him, to go forward.
Joh 18:10 Simon Peter therefore having a sword drew it, and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. Now the servant's name was Malchus.
Joh 18:11 Jesus therefore said unto Peter, Put up the sword into the sheath: the cup which the Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

 

[ChronosFT]

My only avatar is the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, not a "symbol of hatred".

If you are a 50 year old white male living in Virginia, no, probably not.

If you are black and living under a constant eye, yeah, it is. I'm white, 50, and for my entire life I have cringed every time I see that flag. That flag was used to fight a war to maintain slavery. It's just that simple.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Thankyou Ned, I agree that those that know Jesus do not need a gun for protection I have proved that during my Christian life where I have been confronted with the devil through various people that could have killed me.
First in UK where I first became a Christian. The Charismatic C. of E picked up I had spiritual gifts for healing and deliverance even though at the time I had hang- ups as long as your arm. Any new Christian can be used if they have faith and show these gifts.
I was called upon to help a girl who, through her ex-husband who had been in black magic, had been cursed. When they began to pray for her she came out with TWO voices one saying it was the devil and ordering her to get a knife and kill me. She set out in the night to find me and while the priest was praying God showed Him and he met her and averted her mission
Also, when I ran my Christian business, a man walked into the Drop-in Centre with a knife saying he was gong to kill me.
I said, 'In the name of Jesus give me that knife' He immediately collapsed on the floor.
I've seen it all! and I strongly believe that if someone gets close to Jesus they have no need for violent protection especially a gun that can kill or destroy a person. I would say this is a total lack of faith. I also realise that nothing anyone might say will alter the minds of American gun-owners who have always been that way. As a child we was told you were 'click-happy'
that's quite a long time ago now! and old habits die hard.

It would be great if we all were in the same spiritual condition that you believe you are but we ain't.

Maybe you've addressed it but I have not seen it yet....why do you believe that Yeshua did not tell His disciples to get rid of their swords? Why did He tell them at one "sending out" to take a sword?

 

[ChronosFT]

What difference does that make, it's not like you have a gun and the other guy only has a sword? A gun is a tool as well, right now, this very minute, there is a front shoulder of an elk sitting on my kitchen island thawing out a little so it can be cut up and packaged (processed the other shoulder yesterday). The elk has been hanging to age and it has been very cold here at night.

And you used the gun for its sole purpose -- to kill. A gun can be used as a tool in war, also -- to kill. You chose an animal over a human. The purpose was still the same.

A sword can be used to cut things that aren't human or animal. It can be used to cut vegetation, ropes, glass, act as a shim, etc.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

My 10 year old son has his own rifle and hand gun........think we'll shoot a little tomorrow.

As does my wife.

And of course, I'm loaded down.

 

[malvina]

It would be great if we all were in the same spiritual condition that you believe you are but we ain't.

Maybe you've addressed it but I have not seen it yet....why do you believe that Yeshua did not tell His disciples to get rid of their swords? Why did He tell them at one "sending out" to take a sword?

I have no idea friend, all I know is if you take Jesus at His word to protect you - He will. I have a simple faith and I think that works best

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

I have found that it's necessary to understand the Jewish culture of that time in order to understand what Yeshua/Jesus was talking about. Jewish understanding was that when Messiah came it would be preceded by a time of disharmony within families. He did not come to bring hate, but was saying that His teachings would. It was not His goal but because the world would not like what He taught, it would bring dissension between family members. Therefore, denying the natural inclination to back away from Him because of the family dissension caused by following Him, would be necessary.

Yahshua came to divide....it's that simple.

Genesis 1 is a chapter of DIVISION.

Yah calls his own out, from the beginning.

That is why the Adversary preaches unity.

 

[South Bound]

If you are a 50 year old white male living in Virginia, no, probably not.

If you are black and living under a constant eye, yeah, it is.

So, what you're saying is that black people are ignorant of history.

I'm white, 50, and for my entire life I have cringed every time I see that flag. That flag was used to fight a war to maintain slavery. It's just that simple.

Yes. It's very simple. That's why it became a revisionist talking point. Because people who don't know history are easily fooled by "simple".

 

[South Bound]

I have no idea friend, all I know is if you take Jesus at His word to protect you

Could you please cite the verse where Jesus gives His word He will protect us?

 

[dfreeland311]

To answer the gun question:
How do I put this? I am Christian and I own, well, a safe full of firearms as well as a few other toys. You know what? I enjoy shooting as a competitive sport. I've never shot anyone and I hope I never do. I don't have what you have referred to as an American bloodlust. I only shoot paper and steel targets. But, I am also trained enough to use force if justifiably necessary.

When the people in Jesus' time carried swords, that's because their attackers carried swords. I believe in being able to respond with equal force...I love Jesus with every piece of my being. I spend much of my life trying to bring people to Him....However, I'm not going to lose my ability to witness to other people and be used to advance His kingdom in my short time here, because some random person decides to break into my house to have his way with myself and my family. I trust God and try to follow His will, but not all people out there are following the will of God. This isn't a cosmic roller coaster, we're not all puppets in a cosmic chess game, and everything "doesn't" happen for a reason. God isn't using ISIS to make a point, God isn't using a tweaker smashing through your window at 2:30 in the morning to make a point. Those people have long left the path of the will of God. Don't get me wrong, they can be brought back to where they need to be, but when a person or a group becomes an immediate threat to me or my family, neutralizing the threat takes precedence over anything else.

To answer the insurance question:
It's like the old joke about the man stuck on his roof in a flood.

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

We have to realize and acknowledge that God gives people crazy awesome minds to do things like advance medicine and science. Believe it or not, medical discoveries and the like, can be divinely inspired. God can and will perform miraculous healings, but even in the New Testament, not everyone was healed. If you're in an accident and lose a limb, are you going to tell the paramedic to *not* bandage your leg because if it's the will of God, you'll live? Or, will you acknowledge that the timing of the paramedic getting on scene may be a bigger part of God's plan and that person may be there to save your life?

As far as paying for insurance, you could almost look at the Acts church for a model for this. They pooled all of their possessions to give to those who had need. Sounds an awful lot like insurance, doesn't it?