Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

[Root of Jesse]

Yes out of choice not incompetence,Jesus never denied some of his parables were opaque either:

''And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.''


A parable is not plain talking or Jesus would be a vine and a door.

So the parables were opaque to the sheep, but not to the apostles. "They" is the sheep, not the apostles. Parables are not metaphors, my friend. They are direct teaching, with a direct meaning. It wasn't a parable where Jesus said he is the vine.

 

[Daniel C]

I know I’m saved because Christ is working in me.

Something you may want to consider about not understanding parables.

“Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ' YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:11-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I understand parables I just don't base doctrine off of them because I don't believe they were designed for that purpose.

You say you know you're saved,this is good news! What I don't understand is how you say you can lose your salvation and you are saved. The two don't marry up in my view.

A saved person is saved,an unsaved person is unsaved. Correct or not?

 

[Daniel C]

You said an unrepentant murderer will go to heaven.

“Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What church do you attend that teaches this?

That doesn't actually say an already saved person will lose their salvation does it?

''Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.''

Neither does this?

''But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.''

You can't lose what you never had. These people were never saved to begin with.

In regard to murder what about saved Christian doctors who pull the plug on unconscious helpless patients in hospital,is that murder? The soul exited the body at that exact time because of the doctors actions. Who gave doctors the authority to kill people? God?

Abortion is straight up murder of unborn children. Do saved women lose their salvation?

What about a saved Christian man who shoots and kills a house invader to protect his family. Does he lose his salvation?


To all of the above examples I would say they all are saved eternally because they are fully trusting the promise of God and accepted the free eternal gift of salvation. Only people who hold back from God and insist on justifying themselves by works salvation are not saved.

I currently am not taking up the assembly but given the choice I would go to a good new IFB church.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Kjv does not use the word ''believe'' it uses ''believeth'' and I don't accept it is present tense. I interpret it as an ongoing word,so consider this.

Jesus heals the blind men and it is a one-time action,what language does he use?

Matthew 9:27-28
''And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.
And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.''

Also the word believe and belief are used in the same sentence sometimes. I think a modern way of saying would be ''did believe'', so let's compare:

''He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

''He that did believe on him is not condemned: but he that did believe not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

So I think your interpretation is wrong.


Ok we spoke about Revelation and repentance all yesterday,am I allowed to say I don't want to keep repeating myself? Because that's what were doing with that.

I personal interpret and accept the whole of scripture,I just don't take things out of context and build my faith and doctrines off parables. My savior would be a vine if that be the case,I prefer the proper identity of God manifest in the flesh.

Yes let’s take a quick look at that explanation of Revelation 2-3 shall we?

What about the seven churches Jesus told the angel to write to in Revelation 2-3? He told them if they do not repent and go back to their first love He would spit them out of His mouth and He would come quickly to them.

Well repent means change of mind right?

''Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.''

So they abandoned their faith in God and need to turn back.

They abandoned their faith? No they haven’t.

“'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:2-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

And if they don’t repent will they be saved?

Well obviously not,that's why Christ is telling them they lost their first love which is the faith for God,now they've fallen into false worship and need to repent/change their mind and come back to God.

Bear in mind this is a whole group and church he's talking to and not an individual.

Your all over the place with your answers and even contradicting yourself. You said if the churches don’t repent they won’t be saved but now your saying that if anyone ever believed they are saved no matter what. So which is it?

 

[Daniel C]

To the bolded, I used to hear conservatives say "Obama's not my president" and liberals say "Trump is not my president". As if agreeing with or not agreeing with their policies and decisions makes them any less valid. In the case of the church, it's much more serious. The question is...Why did Jesus institute a Church? And if God instituted one Church, why are we all so divided? Second question: Do you believe in the Trinity? The Canon of the New Testament? If so, then the Church does have authority over you, and it's not for you to pick and choose which doctrines you follow, just as a citizen of the US has to accept the President, whoever he is, and abide by the laws of the country.

Great questions!

When I say the Catholic church has as no authority over me I mean they have their teachings and traditions,they insist they are authority over Christendom. I reject their assertion and ways,so that kind of means they have no authority over me.

Gods church is a community of people,not a denomination. It's divided because people have differing views.

I think I have the same vision of God as the Catholic Church has, One God of three persons. Jesus being fully God and fully man but the biggest problem is salvation. I just don't believe they are correct on this issue.

Of course I can choose what doctrines I follow. The church only compiled scripture,Jesus and the Apostles are the divine authority,that is the word of God. How can the Catholic church override that?

 

[Daniel C]

So the parables were opaque to the sheep, but not to the apostles. "They" is the sheep, not the apostles. Parables are not metaphors, my friend. They are direct teaching, with a direct meaning. It wasn't a parable where Jesus said he is the vine.

But is Jesus a vine?

If no,than the parable is not literal. So I don't see justification for basing doctrine on esoteric messages.

If yes,I would say you are a fool.

 

[renniks]

You didn't even attempt to address the scripture I posted. Just dismissed them but it doesn't matter.

I don't dismiss them. I read them in the light of the whole of scripture. Yes, God gives eternal life. Yes it is all by grace, not from our work. But it's not unconditional. There's too much evidence to the contrary. Read the faith chapter. Those people were not perfect, but they kept the faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That doesn't actually say an already saved person will lose their salvation does it?

''Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.''

Neither does this?

''But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.''

You can't lose what you never had. These people were never saved to begin with.

In regard to murder what about saved Christian doctors who pull the plug on unconscious helpless patients in hospital,is that murder? The soul exited the body at that exact time because of the doctors actions. Who gave doctors the authority to kill people? God?

Abortion is straight up murder of unborn children. Do saved women lose their salvation?

What about a saved Christian man who shoots and kills a house invader to protect his family. Does he lose his salvation?


To all of the above examples I would say they all are saved eternally because they are fully trusting the promise of God and accepted the free eternal gift of salvation. Only people who hold back from God and insist on justifying themselves by works salvation are not saved.

I currently am not taking up the assembly but given the choice I would go to a good new IFB church.

First of all the Bible does not say thou shalt not kill it says thou shalt not murder which is an unlawful killing.

Now I’m the example I gave we were talking about a person who believes that Jesus paid for all his sin. Your losing focus and confusing the discussion. Here let me refresh your memory.

Let’s go back to my post you ignored when I asked “so you believe in faith alone?” Let’s say I truly believe that Jesus Christ has paid for all my sins and I decide to go out and begin going to churches of different denominations and killing everyone I see at each place. Then when the police arrive I begin killing them to and in the process I get shot and die. Am I saved? If not, why?

So we’re talking about a murderer who has not repented of his sin if he was killed while in the act of committing that sin.

 

[renniks]

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

''He that did believe on him is not condemned: but he that did believe not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'

So you think apostates are saved when the word says they are not...

 

[Daniel C]

So you think apostates are saved when the word says they are not...

Why would I believe in apostasy if I believe in eternal salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I understand parables I just don't base doctrine off of them because I don't believe they were designed for that purpose.

You say you know you're saved,this is good news! What I don't understand is how you say you can lose your salvation and you are saved. The two don't marry up in my view.

A saved person is saved,an unsaved person is unsaved. Correct or not?

I am saved because I abide in Christ and He abides in Me. Anyone who does not abide in Christ will not be saved. In order for a person to abide in Christ they must first be in Christ to begin with.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why would I believe in apostasy if I believe in eternal salvation?

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Daniel C]

First of all the Bible does not say thou shalt not kill it says thou shalt not murder which is an unlawful killing.

Now I’m the example I gave we were talking about a person who believes that Jesus paid for all his sin. Your losing focus and confusing the discussion. Here let me refresh your memory.



So we’re talking about a murderer who has not repented of his sin if he was killed while in the act of committing that sin.

I don't believe a born again saved Christian can lose their salvation:



Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''


This is Gods plan for those who believe.

 

[Daniel C]

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:10-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These new Bible translations really are corrupt:

''Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;''

A falling away is not apostasy. A saved person cannot return the free gift of God for salvation. Neither I expect would they want to as it was the frame of mind and heart that connected them to God in the first place.

The falling away is referring to the self proclaimed Christians who trust in works salvation but aren't saved. They claim the name of Christ but he never knew them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

These new Bible translations really are corrupt:

''Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;''

A falling away is not apostasy. A saved person cannot return the free gift of God for salvation. Neither I expect would they want to as it was the frame of mind and heart that connected them to God in the first place.

The falling away is referring to the self proclaimed Christians who trust in works salvation but aren't saved. They claim the name of Christ but he never knew them.

Falling away refers to those who did know Him OTHERWISE IT WOULDNT BE A FALLING AWAY. What they fell away from never knowing Him?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let’s stay focused here and not skip over this post again. I’m really eager to hear your explanation of how the churches in Asia must repent to be saved and yet they only need to believe at one time to be saved. How they “lost their faith” and must now repent in order to be saved even tho they must’ve already believed in order to have the faith you claim they lost.

The Kjv does not use the word ''believe'' it uses ''believeth'' and I don't accept it is present tense. I interpret it as an ongoing word,so consider this.

Jesus heals the blind men and it is a one-time action,what language does he use?

Matthew 9:27-28
''And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.
And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.''

Also the word believe and belief are used in the same sentence sometimes. I think a modern way of saying would be ''did believe'', so let's compare:

''He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

''He that did believe on him is not condemned: but he that did believe not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

So I think your interpretation is wrong.


Ok we spoke about Revelation and repentance all yesterday,am I allowed to say I don't want to keep repeating myself? Because that's what were doing with that.

I personal interpret and accept the whole of scripture,I just don't take things out of context and build my faith and doctrines off parables. My savior would be a vine if that be the case,I prefer the proper identity of God manifest in the flesh.

Yes let’s take a quick look at that explanation of Revelation 2-3 shall we?

What about the seven churches Jesus told the angel to write to in Revelation 2-3? He told them if they do not repent and go back to their first love He would spit them out of His mouth and He would come quickly to them.

Well repent means change of mind right?

''Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.''

So they abandoned their faith in God and need to turn back.

They abandoned their faith? No they haven’t.

“'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:2-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

And if they don’t repent will they be saved?

Well obviously not,that's why Christ is telling them they lost their first love which is the faith for God,now they've fallen into false worship and need to repent/change their mind and come back to God.

Bear in mind this is a whole group and church he's talking to and not an individual.

Your all over the place with your answers and even contradicting yourself. You said if the churches don’t repent they won’t be saved but now your saying that if anyone ever believed they are saved no matter what. So which is it?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Just so we understand each other I just want to ask you,so there's no confusion.

What do you think a person needs to do to be saved?

And you do know that having faith is a work, right?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Great questions!

When I say the Catholic church has as no authority over me I mean they have their teachings and traditions,they insist they are authority over Christendom. I reject their assertion and ways,so that kind of means they have no authority over me.

You do accept some of their traditions, though. Like the Trinity and the contents of the Bible. So you're a pick and choose Christian?

Gods church is a community of people,not a denomination. It's divided because people have differing views.

Yeah, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. There is only one body of teaching in the Catholic Church, regardless of the views of her members.

I think I have the same vision of God as the Catholic Church has, One God of three persons. Jesus being fully God and fully man but the biggest problem is salvation. I just don't believe they are correct on this issue.

Huh? You say you have the same vision as the Catholic Church but you don't believe they are correct on the issue?

Of course I can choose what doctrines I follow. The church only compiled scripture,Jesus and the Apostles are the divine authority,that is the word of God. How can the Catholic church override that?

If you believe what you stated, and Scripture is the word of God, Scripture tells us that the apostles appointed a successor to Judas after he killed himself. It is also clear that Paul, having never met Christ, was still appointed an apostle. Timothy and Titus were appointed by Paul to be the head of their local churches. We believe this act of successorship carries on to the present day. That the Holy Spirit appoints some men to be heads of His local Churches, united under the Pope, who has the same successorship from Peter. Jesus left us an authority, someone for us to consult when our brother sins against us and he won't listen. Jesus told us we should tell it to the Church.

 

[Daniel C]

Let’s stay focused here and not skip over this post again. I’m really eager to hear your explanation of how the churches in Asia must repent to be saved and yet they only need to believe at one time to be saved. How they “lost their faith” and must now repent in order to be saved even tho they must’ve already believed in order to have the faith you claim they lost.



Yes let’s take a quick look at that explanation of Revelation 2-3 shall we?





They abandoned their faith? No they haven’t.

“'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:2-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬





Your all over the place with your answers and even contradicting yourself. You said if the churches don’t repent they won’t be saved but now your saying that if anyone ever believed they are saved no matter what. So which is it?

We spoke about this yesterday,I said I wanted to cover some new ground today.

Ok you are determined to repeat this so I will. However, you need to deal with this point first. I already dealt with that and you haven't addressed this one time,so do the fair thing and tackle the scripture,than I will deal with this revelation post,again:



I don't believe a born again saved Christian can lose their salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9
''For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.''


Romans 6:23
''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''


This is Gods plan for those who believe. Is God lying when he says the gift is free,eternal or by faith?

 

[Daniel C]

And you do know that having faith is a work, right?

You might think classify it as a work.

Let's be reasonable here before we go into the definition of ''works'', you know and I know that faith is belief. Work is activity and generally done repetitively.

Is there any need to argue over the basics of Christianity?