Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

[Daniel C]

I don't understand the question... Of course many will fall away because of tribulation, but the fact remains that they were saved and fell away.

Show me where that scripture I just posted you said they were saved.

In fact, show me where it said they "fell away".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Show me where that scripture I just posted you said they were saved.

In fact, show me where it said they "fell away".

From either side , "cherry-picking" words or verses then claiming support from them when other Scripture clearly shows otherwise
is not wise at all - that's what leads to heresy of osas and the like.

 

[renniks]

Show me where that scripture I just posted you said they were saved.

In fact, show me where it said they "fell away".

I showed you verses saying they fell away and you ignore them... what do you think thier love growing cold means?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I showed you verses saying they fell away and you ignore them... what do you think thier love growing cold means?

 

[Daniel C]

I showed you verses saying they fell away and you ignore them... what do you think thier love growing cold means?

We focused on one of these and it mentioned nothing of the sort. I just took the time to explain it was persecution not abandoning faith.

The love of most growing cold is the heathens turning against Christians more intensely than it's ever been before.

What is the majority of the worlds population? Christian or non-Christian? So most the heathen will turn on Christians. Doesn't say anything about saved falling away though. That is your add on.

 

[Daniel C]

From either side , "cherry-picking" words or verses then claiming support from them when other Scripture clearly shows otherwise
is not wise at all - that's what leads to heresy of osas and the like.

How do you identify what is a heresy and what is not a heresy?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I showed you verses saying they fell away and you ignore them... what do you think thier love growing cold means?

Speaking of which (love growing cold),

in a paraphrase , footnote, expanded language , or commentary,

a few years ago I read : Jesus said to His Apostles "IF you start collecting money (and/or worldly things-possessions), THEN

THE LOVE YOU ALREADY HAVE FOR ME (SAVIOR MESSIAH KING) (the good love)

will depart (perhaps gradually) FROM YOUR HEART....

So, therefore, IF the love does depart from someone's heart, they don't love God, thus don't get to graduate .... they've gone back to Egypt so to speak....

 

[renniks]

We focused on one of these and it mentioned nothing of the sort. I just took the time to explain it was persecution not abandoning faith.

The love of most growing cold is the heathens turning against Christians more intensely than it's ever been before.

What is the majority of the worlds population? Christian or non-Christian? So most the heathen will turn on Christians. Doesn't say anything about saved falling away though. That is your add on.

I have never in my life seen anyone interpret this passage as being unbelievers losing love. At the least, it means Christians will grow less loving, but more likely, that they will no longer maintain their relationship with God.

"The love of many (τῶν πολλῶν, the many, the majority) shall wax cold. "Love" (ἀγάπη) here is used in its general and comprehensive sense, as having God as its chief object and man in subordination thereto. The troubles and persecutions that shall beset believers, the spirit of worldliness and self-seeking that a timid faith encourages, will issue in loosening dependence upon God and trust in his providential care; and internal dissensions will destroy that brotherly love which ought to be characteristic of Christians. Of this lack of energetic love the Lord speaks in his warnings to the Church of Laodicea (Revelation 3:16), "Because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

 

[Root of Jesse]

But is Jesus a vine?

Did Jesus ever make any false statement? I don't believe so, and in His way, he is a vine.

If no,than the parable is not literal. So I don't see justification for basing doctrine on esoteric messages.

Well, I think you're talking of literalistic, not literal. Here;s a good article on the difference: The Musical Priest: Literal or Literalist? Yes, Catholics DO take the Bible Literally!

If yes,I would say you are a fool.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You might think classify it as a work.

Let's be reasonable here before we go into the definition of ''works'', you know and I know that faith is belief. Work is activity and generally done repetitively.

Is there any need to argue over the basics of Christianity?

You might think classify it as a work.

Let's be reasonable here before we go into the definition of ''works'', you know and I know that faith is belief. Work is activity and generally done repetitively.

Is there any need to argue over the basics of Christianity?

Anything we do is a work. Therefore, faith and belief are acts, or work.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I think we are going off topic of salvation a little but ill respond to a couple of points.

Judas was replaced because of suicide and the twelve tribes need to be ruled over,with one short a new one was elected. Titus and timothy were not successors but authority in their local area as you acknowledge so this is not ecumenical it's local. At the time the main goal for everyone was soul winning. Does the Catholic church do soul winning anymore?

Then why were there more than 12 apostles? Paul was an apostle. So why didn't Paul replace Judas??? Titus and Timothy were appointed to their local Churches by Paul. They are successors of Paul.
At the time, the main goal was to follow Jesus exactly as the apostles did. And to carry on the faith of the apostles. Winning souls was part of that, and yes, the Catholic Church does work to win souls every day. Around the world, in fact.

How is a person saved? Your view as a Catholic?

Baptism saves you from Original Sin. Every day, in our faith, we are saved, and yes, we must work at it. I pray every morning "God, help me to be a better version of myself, to love You and please You in every act I do." I fail at it every day, but I succeed in holy moments. But salvation is not a one-time thing.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I fail at it every day

I don't know what section of the forum/site, if any, we can seek the solution in Scripture to this in..... there is not a need to fail at it every day ..... and I don't think we can derail this thread on this .....

 

[Daniel C]

Then why were there more than 12 apostles? Paul was an apostle. So why didn't Paul replace Judas??? Titus and Timothy were appointed to their local Churches by Paul. They are successors of Paul.
At the time, the main goal was to follow Jesus exactly as the apostles did. And to carry on the faith of the apostles. Winning souls was part of that, and yes, the Catholic Church does work to win souls every day. Around the world, in fact.Baptism saves you from Original Sin. Every day, in our faith, we are saved, and yes, we must work at it. I pray every morning "God, help me to be a better version of myself, to love You and please You in every act I do." I fail at it every day, but I succeed in holy moments. But salvation is not a one-time thing.

Why do you say a person needs a water baptism to be saved?

Anything we do is a work. Therefore, faith and belief are acts, or work.

Any action,sure. Going to church is works,reading a Bible is works,getting a water Baptism is works etc any action done out of necessity rather than choice is works salvation.

Belief is just something that goes on in your head.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Why do you say a person needs a water baptism to be saved?

1 PETER 3:21, along with the end of Matthew's gospel.


Any action,sure. Going to church is works,reading a Bible is works,getting a water Baptism is works etc any action done out of necessity rather than choice is works salvation.

Belief is just something that goes on in your head.

Then why do we have acts of faith and acts of belief?

 

[Daniel C]

Then why do we have acts of faith and acts of belief?

Because that is what God has always asked and demanded of his people. All the other stuff is unwanted junk to him.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Because that is what God has always asked and demanded of his people. All the other stuff is unwanted junk to him.

So we are required to do works if we're followers of God. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Daniel C]

So we are required to do works if we're followers of God. Thanks for the clarification.

Well Hebrews 11 says this:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

So Biblically faith is a frame of mind not labour or works.

Sorry.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So we are required to do works if we're followers of God. Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, funny that you admit it...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So Biblically faith is a frame of mind not labour or works.

Did you ever see a man's body laying on the ground/ road/ without breath ?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well Hebrews 11 says this:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

So Biblically faith is a frame of mind not labour or works.

Sorry.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe; and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:14-26).



Look at the examples James cites of "works": clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, the obedience of Abraham, the faithfulness of Rahab (note that Rahab's faith is a work: compare James 2:25 with Heb. 11:31). These works that James cites as salvific are the proverbial "good works" so derided by classical Protestantism. He does not cite circumcision and ceremonial laws as examples of works, as did St. Paul; rather, he is emphasizing adherence to the moral law.

St. James' point here is to stress that simple, intellectual adherence to the truths of the Faith is not sufficient for justification; good deeds must follow as well, or else one's faith is in vain. This is the traditional Catholic interpretation of these texts: that while the kind of ceremonial Jewish precepts written against by St. Paul are certainly not salvific or necessary for our salvation, it is absolutely essential to persist in charity and to cooperate with God's grace by doing "good works"; this is, after all, the meaning of our Lord's parable of the talent. Only those who put their master's money (grace) to "work" and reaped a profit were able to enter into their master's happiness. The servant who did nothing was cast out.