Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

[charsan]

The church is a visible physical entity that God established at Pentecost-or earlier. It possessed a unified body of beliefs from the beginning. Sola Scriptura spawns no such unity; by its nature it cannot be relied on to do so. Really, without the history of the church and the faith that it carried on and taught and testified to and persevered and at times clarified in councils down through the centuries, there would probably exist no christian faith today.

So many people think just them and the Bible is enough, the problem is as in this thread so much material heresy from those types and even formal heresy sometimes

 

[BobRyan]

So many people think just them and the Bible is enough, the problem is as in this thread so much material heresy from those types and even formal heresy sometimes

I assume you have a source/group where you believe if they posted here no one would conclude that they teach some form of heresy. I am just guessing at this point. In which case you have solved the problem you say you have identified.

 

[fhansen]

I assume you have a source/group where you believe if they posted here no one would conclude that they teach some form of heresy. I am just guessing at this point. In which case you have solved the problem you say you have identified.

Actually, if being judged by Scripture alone it would be virtually guaranteed that any source/group, regardless of their background, would be charged with heresy on some point or another since SS adherents so often disagree with each other to begin with based on Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, if being judged by Scripture alone it would be virtually guaranteed that any source/group, regardless of their background, would be charged with heresy on some point or another since SS adherents so often disagree with each other to begin with based on Scripture.

So you start off admitting that your own group would be condemned if subjected to the same Sola Scriptura standard as Christ uses with the Pharisees in Mark 7 and as other Christian denominations use with their own doctrine and the doctrine of denominations such as yours and all others outside their group.??

What problem did you solve then?

Did you think that all the SS Christians in the world condemn their own denomination via SS and only Catholics don't condemn their own denomination's doctrine??

If that is not your argument then "at best" your claim is that they have the same problem as you do - viewing all others as having some form of error.

At worst you shoot your own argument because they each have a way to "test" their own denomination ... by an infallible independent standard which they make no claim at all to authoring -- and you have no way to test your own denomination since by definition "tradition" is whatever your denomination says.

The one thing you have in common is that all -- view "those on the outside" as having some form of doctrinal error.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm sorry I was under the impressions you thought the Catholic church had authority. Let me ask you plainly. Does the Catholic church has authority. Yes or no and why.

What kind of authority are you referring to? I don’t understand. It is the correct interpretation of the scriptures that they have that has been handed down over the centuries. The Catholic Church began with not only the scriptures but so much more. It was kept preserved by men and women who actually sat and talked with the apostles themselves. They sat thru sermon after sermon, were able to sit and talk with the apostles and ask questions. They were able to get so much more information from the apostles than we ever could from the scriptures. Just think of when you were first learning the scriptures how many questions you probably ask your pastor and church members about what certain scriptures were actually saying. These people were able to ask the apostles themselves and they handed down this information in their writings. The earliest church writings were written by men who had this kind of direction directly from the apostles. So for the entire congregation to go from believing in eternal security to conditional salvation with no evidence of resistance is impossible. We’re talking about men and women who risked their lives even some to the point of martyrdom to preserve these teachings would all disappear without a trace and be completely replaced by people teaching a false gospel. I have to believe that what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 MUST be true. Evil can never prevail over His Church. We have evidence as early as 170AD that salvation is conditional from St Iranaeus’ writing Adversus Haereses. What would be the point of Jesus telling the apostles to go and preach the gospel to all nations if every Christian church would begin to teach a false gospel less than 100 years after the apostles have died? And then for another 1500 years no one would teach the true gospel until Martin Luther finally comes along. Did Jesus’ plan to spread the gospel to all nations fail less than 150 years after the church was established? It doesn’t make any sense. The biggest problem people have is they see the word Catholic and associate the church with the actions and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. The second biggest problem is people are more concerned with pride not wanting to admit they were wrong than considering the possibility that maybe they’ve been misled. It was hard for me to accept that I was wrong until I began to see that the scriptures that I believed to support reformed theology could actually be interpreted another way without any contradiction. I had been defending reformed theology and condemning Catholicism just like you do now until someone really made me stop and take a good look at John 15 and the many implications of that chapter. Like I said before I set out to prove this person wrong. I was determined to interpret John 15 in a way that supported eternal security. I finally realized after much study that it simply cannot be done without ignoring what the text actually says. The only way to reconcile John 15 to support eternal security is to say that those who do not abide in Christ were never in Christ to begin with which contradicts the very definition of the word abide which means to stay, remain, or continue. Not to mention that Jesus is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles when He tells them to abide in Him. We know for a fact that these men were undoubtedly true believers. So why would Jesus tell them to abide in Him if we know they are true believers and are incapable of failing to abide? He told them this because everyone still has free will even after believing. Everyone is still capable of choosing to serve God or not serve Him. God will keep us and complete what He has begun in us if we are willing to cooperate with Him. That’s why He has sealed us with the Holy Spirit who will constantly urge us to repent when we stray. But the Holy Spirit is not a remote control device. He will guide us but we must choose to walk the path. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way to God. He does not steer the boat. If we fall asleep at the wheel we may wake to find ourself way off course or maybe even worse, shipwrecked. That’s why Paul warned us not to grieve the Holy Spirit. He said that to believers. Only believers have the Holy Spirit. Right after he said that in Ephesians 4 he went right into Ephesians 5 warning them of the consequences of reverting back to a sinful way of life. Then in Romans 6:16 he says we are a servant to the one whom we serve, either a servant of God to righteousness or a servant of satan to death. A person can be a child of God one minute and a servant of satan the next. That’s why the scriptures say several times that we must endure to the end to be saved. That’s why the apostles didn’t just sit around believing and doing nothing. Paul said I believe in 2 Timothy that he ran a good race. They are our example for us to follow. I come here on CF to help others see the gospel from another perspective. That’s the beauty of this website is that we can come together and share our experiences and beliefs with one another to help strengthen each other in our knowledge of God’s word. I just want to share the knowledge God has shared with me.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You said:''Do God's will. We enter communion with Him by faith, becoming His sons. Then we're expected to act like it, with the help of grace. It's a package deal, a work of His we cooperate in as we work out our salvation with He who works in us.''


Well that is not what the Bible says on how to get to heaven:

''29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.''


This is Paul speaking. He says to be saved you need to believe. He didn't mention a Eucharist or water baptism or confession,just believe.

And after we are saved it is eternal. Salvation is the free gift of God that he will not take be,less he be lying.

''For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.''

What about the seven churches Jesus told the angel to write to in Revelation 2-3? He told them if they do not repent and go back to their first love He would spit them out of His mouth and He would come quickly to them.

 

[Daniel C]

What kind of authority are you referring to? I don’t understand. It is the correct interpretation of the scriptures that they have that has been handed down over the centuries. The Catholic Church began with not only the scriptures but so much more. It was kept preserved by men and women who actually sat and talked with the apostles themselves. They sat thru sermon after sermon, were able to sit and talk with the apostles and ask questions. They were able to get so much more information from the apostles than we ever could from the scriptures. Just think of when you were first learning the scriptures how many questions you probably ask your pastor and church members about what certain scriptures were actually saying. These people were able to ask the apostles themselves and they handed down this information in their writings. The earliest church writings were written by men who had this kind of direction directly from the apostles. So for the entire congregation to go from believing in eternal security to conditional salvation with no evidence of resistance is impossible. We’re talking about men and women who risked their lives even some to the point of martyrdom to preserve these teachings would all disappear without a trace and be completely replaced by people teaching a false gospel. I have to believe that what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 MUST be true. Evil can never prevail over His Church. We have evidence as early as 170AD that salvation is conditional from St Iranaeus’ writing Adversus Haereses. What would be the point of Jesus telling the apostles to go and preach the gospel to all nations if every Christian church would begin to teach a false gospel less than 100 years after the apostles have died? And then for another 1500 years no one would teach the true gospel until Martin Luther finally comes along. Did Jesus’ plan to spread the gospel to all nations fail less than 150 years after the church was established? It doesn’t make any sense. The biggest problem people have is they see the word Catholic and associate the church with the actions and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. The second biggest problem is people are more concerned with pride not wanting to admit they were wrong than considering the possibility that maybe they’ve been misled. It was hard for me to accept that I was wrong until I began to see that the scriptures that I believed to support reformed theology could actually be interpreted another way without any contradiction. I had been defending reformed theology and condemning Catholicism just like you do now until someone really made me stop and take a good look at John 15 and the many implications of that chapter. Like I said before I set out to prove this person wrong. I was determined to interpret John 15 in a way that supported eternal security. I finally realized after much study that it simply cannot be done without ignoring what the text actually says. The only way to reconcile John 15 to support eternal security is to say that those who do not abide in Christ were never in Christ to begin with which contradicts the very definition of the word abide which means to stay, remain, or continue. Not to mention that Jesus is speaking only to His 11 faithful apostles when He tells them to abide in Him. We know for a fact that these men were undoubtedly true believers. So why would Jesus tell them to abide in Him if we know they are true believers and are incapable of failing to abide? He told them this because everyone still has free will even after believing. Everyone is still capable of choosing to serve God or not serve Him. God will keep us and complete what He has begun in us if we are willing to cooperate with Him. That’s why He has sealed us with the Holy Spirit who will constantly urge us to repent when we stray. But the Holy Spirit is not a remote control device. He will guide us but we must choose to walk the path. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way to God. He does not steer the boat. If we fall asleep at the wheel we may wake to find ourself way off course or maybe even worse, shipwrecked. That’s why Paul warned us not to grieve the Holy Spirit. He said that to believers. Only believers have the Holy Spirit. Right after he said that in Ephesians 4 he went right into Ephesians 5 warning them of the consequences of reverting back to a sinful way of life. Then in Romans 6:16 he says we are a servant to the one whom we serve, either a servant of God to righteousness or a servant of satan to death. A person can be a child of God one minute and a servant of satan the next. That’s why the scriptures say several times that we must endure to the end to be saved. That’s why the apostles didn’t just sit around believing and doing nothing. Paul said I believe in 2 Timothy that he ran a good race. They are our example for us to follow. I come here on CF to help others see the gospel from another perspective. That’s the beauty of this website is that we can come together and share our experiences and beliefs with one another to help strengthen each other in our knowledge of God’s word. I just want to share the knowledge God has shared with me.

I reject the idea a saved person can lose their salvation,that is your churches interpretation. The Catholic church believes human effort or works is needed to sustain salvation,I disagree and think have demonstrated a reasonable case using scripture.

I think apostolic succession ended after the Apostles and the people who immediately knew the Apostles. After that point it doesn't count and these ''church fathers'' are just an opinion like yours and mine. Nothing divine about them.

You say ''ask my Pastor'' but I don't have one, I am sola scriptora.

Peter is not the rock the Christian community was built on that hell will never overcome,Jesus is the rock. Again this is your Churches interpretation.

I think it's really sad you are unable to overcome the obvious point that Jesus is not a vine but a Savior and that parables are not for basing doctrine off of.

 

[Daniel C]

What about the seven churches Jesus told the angel to write to in Revelation 2-3? He told them if they do not repent and go back to their first love He would spit them out of His mouth and He would come quickly to them.

Well repent means change of mind right?

''Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.''

So they abandoned their faith in God and need to turn back.

 

[MDC]

I reject the idea a saved person can lose their salvation,that is your churches interpretation. The Catholic church believes human effort or works is needed to sustain salvation,I disagree and think have demonstrated a reasonable case using scripture.

I think apostolic succession ended after the Apostles and the people who immediately knew the Apostles. After that point it doesn't count and these ''church fathers'' are just an opinion like yours and mine. Nothing divine about them.

You say ''ask my Pastor'' but I don't have one, I am sola scriptora.

Peter is not the rock the Christian community was built on that hell will never overcome,Jesus is the rock. Again this is your Churches interpretation.

I think it's really sad you are unable to overcome the obvious point that Jesus is not a vine but a Savior and that parables are not for basing doctrine off of.

A saved person is eternally secure in Christ. Salvation is of the Lord from start to finish. Christ guarantees the salvation of the elect and all Christ’s sheep will persevere to the end by Gods power and Spirit. What you fight against are those who do not believe the gospel of Christ and look to their deeds or works of religious practices such as sacraments to form the basis for their salvation in some way. These are what Paul condemns in Galatians. Unless the Lord should grant them repentance they will continue to lift up their deeds and works as the foundation for their salvation. And not Christ and His merits of righteousness

 

[Daniel C]

A saved person is eternally secure in Christ. Salvation is of the Lord from start to finish. Christ guarantees the salvation of the elect and all Christ’s sheep will persevere to the end by Gods power and Spirit. What you fight against are those who do not believe the gospel of Christ and look to their deeds or works of religious practices such as sacraments to form the basis for their salvation in some way. These are what Paul condemns in Galatians. Unless the Lord should grant them repentance they will continue to lift up their deeds and works as the foundation for their salvation. And not Christ and His merits of righteousness

I give an amen to all of that except the election part. I do believe in mans will or "free will" so my understanding is a person is saved by the word of God by hearing the Gospel from an already saved person. The "elected" are just the saved people of God, in my opinion.

I think the reformed and fundamentalists both agree salvation is eternally preserved not conditional,just but what means we get there.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually the people who ''never knew'' are the ones who chose works salvation,which is not what Jesus asked for:

(Matthew)

''Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.''


''Wonderful works'' in their own eyes,iniquity in Gods eyes,hence they were rejected.

Salvation is by faith,a free eternal gift of God that we receive when we are born again.

That's avoiding what Jesus said. He said to those who didn't feed the hungry etc. "I never knew you".
Of course you can do the same thing, feed the hungry, thinking it'll get you to heaven, and lose out. That's what you're talking about-works salvation. But for us works proceed FROM salvation. So BECAUSE we love God, we do His will-to feed the hungry. We love without considering the future.

It's like, if you're married, and you tell your spouse 'I love you because you gave me a new car.' That's transactional, not the way love is supposed to be, sacrificial. Rather, I love you unconditionally, whether or not you do anything in return..

I don't know about your church, but in some congregations people think that by tithing, they're gaining heaven. Doesn't work that way. Ask Democrats about the Great Society and how that all worked.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What does a person have to do to get to heaven?

Trick question? There's nothing you can do to merit heaven, which is what I think you're asking. But obey the commandments is a requirement.
Love God, love your neighbor. Feeding the hungry, etc. is 'loving your neighbor'. If you're loving God and neighbor sacrificially, you will hear "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

 

[Daniel C]

That's avoiding what Jesus said. He said to those who didn't feed the hungry etc. "I never knew you".
Of course you can do the same thing, feed the hungry, thinking it'll get you to heaven, and lose out. That's what you're talking about-works salvation. But for us works proceed FROM salvation. So BECAUSE we love God, we do His will-to feed the hungry. We love without considering the future.

It's like, if you're married, and you tell your spouse 'I love you because you gave me a new car.' That's transactional, not the way love is supposed to be, sacrificial. Rather, I love you unconditionally, whether or not you do anything in return..

I don't know about your church, but in some congregations people think that by tithing, they're gaining heaven. Doesn't work that way. Ask Democrats about the Great Society and how that all worked.

Quote the actually scripture so we can examine it properly. Thanks.

 

[Daniel C]

Trick question? There's nothing you can do to merit heaven, which is what I think you're asking. But obey the commandments is a requirement.
Love God, love your neighbor. Feeding the hungry, etc. is 'loving your neighbor'. If you're loving God and neighbor sacrificially, you will hear "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

The Bible says something different how to get to heaven:

Paul says this

''Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house''

Peter said this:

''And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.''



The things you list for salvation are not Biblical. We are saved by faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well repent means change of mind right?

''Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.''

So they abandoned their faith in God and need to turn back.

And if they don’t repent will they be saved?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I reject the idea a saved person can lose their salvation,that is your churches interpretation. The Catholic church believes human effort or works is needed to sustain salvation,I disagree and think have demonstrated a reasonable case using scripture.

I think apostolic succession ended after the Apostles and the people who immediately knew the Apostles. After that point it doesn't count and these ''church fathers'' are just an opinion like yours and mine. Nothing divine about them.

You say ''ask my Pastor'' but I don't have one, I am sola scriptora.

Peter is not the rock the Christian community was built on that hell will never overcome,Jesus is the rock. Again this is your Churches interpretation.

I think it's really sad you are unable to overcome the obvious point that Jesus is not a vine but a Savior and that parables are not for basing doctrine off of.

By the way I’m not Catholic or Orthodox my friend. I’m a nondenominational who has a tendency to lean towards the Orthodox teachings. However I don’t embrace all their teachings. On some matters I prefer to remain neutral.

 

[Daniel C]

And if they don’t repent will they be saved?

Well obviously not,that's why Christ is telling them they lost their first love which is the faith for God,now they've fallen into false worship and need to repent/change their mind and come back to God.

Bear in mind this is a whole group and church he's talking to and not an individual.

 

[Daniel C]

By the way I’m not Catholic or Orthodox my friend. I’m a nondenominational who has a tendency to lean towards the Orthodox teachings. However I don’t embrace all their teachings. On some matters I prefer to remain neutral.

Following church teachings and following Christ are often very different,because the churches go against the teachings of Christ to please themselves.

 

[Danthemailman]

They were not told to do good works. They were told ''to do the will of the father''.

''21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.''

What is the will of the father?

''For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.''

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[Daniel C]

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Amen.

Another member pointed that out to me I think. I will concede that is a clearer definition of the fathers will but John3:16 is like a simplified version of the Gospel,so I go to it a lot.

Also thanks for the support. I See a few alerts,I appreciate that.