Do you have a "renewed mind".?

[Clare73]

John addresses the born again as "Children." "little ones", ect.
In 1 Jn 1:9 he doesn't.
In Chapter 2, 3, others, he does.
So, there is a reason for that,

And the reason is contrived by you to support your errnoenous theology.
John didn't write his letter in chapters and verses.
He wrote one continuous manuscript.
There is no reason to require or expect him to address the believers as "my dear children" at any particular points in the letter.
That is simply your personally-manufactured construct to support the erroneous theology of your solution to a problem you see.

and so, there is the confusion found that many have.. regarding 1 John 1:9
These verses get wrongly divided and this stumbles some.

Indeed they do. . .by you

This isn't "dispensation" teaching to understand this distinction between John simply preaching to the lost vs teaching the born again.

It's not "dispensation teaching," it's dispensational practice of interpretation where things that are singular and the same are divided and duplicated into two separate things.

He, just like Paul in "Hebrews", does both.

And you, just like dispensationalists, divide and duplicate things which are the same in the cases of Hebrews and 1 John, where it is the one group of believers receiving the letters which you divide into two different groups--believers and unbelievers both, in your wrongly-conceived solution to a problem.

Here is something else to consider.
If a person has "sin" they are hell bound, they are lost..... they are not born again.
No one goes to heaven who "has" sin.

Precisely what does this mean, and precisely where is this taught in the NT (book, chp and verse)?

Lucifer was cast out of heaven because sin was found in him.
We go to heaven because Jesus has dealt with our sin., He became it, and died.
Why are people in hell today? Its because Jesus didn't deal with theirs.

Some Questions readers...

Does Christ have sin now?
Is He a sinner?
So, is there any sin found ''"""In Christ""""?
Are the born again "in Christ"?
Can we have SIN, and be "in Christ?
Can we have SIN, and be "ONE with God In Christ"?
Can we have SIN, and be "'"""As Jesus IS, so are the born again, in this world"?
Can we have SIN, and be "seated in heavenly places In Christ".
Can we have SIN, and be "The Temple of the Holy Spirit"?

A.) NEVER

Let me show you where the deception came in that is theological malpractice that most believers are committing against the Cross, and against the Grace of God.
See, to be against the Cross is to contradict the Grace of God.
A believer does this, when they have

"fallen from Grace'"
To do this, is to leave faith in Christ to keep you saved and to instead commit to trying to keep yourself saved by self deeds. SELF DEEDS INCLUDE confessing sin.
Thats a "work".

Now, we're down to it.
Because the apostle John gives the lie to your wrongly-conceived solution to a problem, you must reconstruct his letter as being to both believers and unbelievers, and then ascribe all which disagrees with your wrongly-conceived solution there as applying to unbelievers, dividing and duplicating groups of its recipients to make his letter fit your theology. . .dispensational methodolgy in spades!

So, being that person, in that broken faith, is how you faell FROM Grace, and into LEGALISM.
Legalism is simply to try to STAY SAVED, by doing something or not doing something.
And all that is the person having trust in SELF effort, vs, trusting in Christ alone to keep you saved.
Where does this start? It often starts when someone tells you, teaches you, that
God started your salvation, and then you keep it by confessing sin.

You correctly understand the principle of not losing salvation, but your ignorance applies that principle in a totally contra-Biblical manner.
You don't keep your salvation by confessing sin, you demonstrate your salvation by confessing sin, because in the Christian life true faith deals with the believer's imperfection by confession and repentance.

Often it begins with a wrong understanding of "work out your salvation", where a person is taught this means.>"keep yourself saved by DEEDS, works, sin confession", or anything else you try to do, that is not simply trusting in Christ instead, as you should.
Christ Keeping you saved, this is the Blood Atonement, which is the Grace of God, and when you no longer trust that GRACE, you have "fallen from THAT GRACE", into "here is what i do" in place of Trusting "Here is what CHRIST did for me"..
See that?
= "fallen from Grace".

See, its this corrupted faith that believes that you keep yourself clean and saved, by confessing sin, and as long as you confess, then God keeps on saving you.
So, what has happened is that the confession of sin, is now your savior, as the person is trusting..... that as long as they do THAT...... they keep themselves saved.
= "fallen from Grace".

In the name of "Jesus saves," which you understand correctly, you seek to correct what you see as a misunderstanding by some of 1 John 1:9, regarding confession and repentance as requirements to "keep" one's salvation.

Not understanding what the NT presents regarding the necessary works of obedience in sanctification, you assume all works of obedience are "keeping" one's salvation. . .which is your error.

The fundamental problem creating your confusion is the difference between the righteousnes of justification (apart from works) and the righteousness of sanctification by the Holy Spirit (thorugh works of obedience).
You are not alone in your unclear grasp of these two kinds of righteousness in the NT.

Justification = declaration of "not guilty," where Christ's righteousness is imputed/credited to one (Romans 5:17-19) through faith apart from works, giving permanent right-standing (not holiness) with God's justice.

Sanctification = growth in holiness/righteousness by the Holy Spirit through works of obedience (presented in post #84, below).

Where things are one group of recipients, you make two, (Hebrews, 1 John) and now where things are two (righteousness), you want to make them one.

Those who are really lost inside this broken faith, will argue that when you sin, you are lost again, and when you confess, God gives salvation back to you.
So, its lost, saved again, lost, saved again..
= "fallen from GRACE" theology.

If there are those who really think "saved--lost--saved--lost," and you are not mis-identifying their belief, then you've correctly identified a problem, but your solution for it is contra-Biblical.

All your misunderstanding of the NT would rectify itself in the right understanding of the righteousness of justification as distinct from the righteouness of sanctification (presented in post #84, below).

 

[Sidon]

No one goes to heaven who "has" sin.

Precisely what does this mean, and precisely where is this taught in the NT (book, chp and verse)?
[/QUOTE]

It precisely means that Jesus said...>"if you dont believe in Me, you will die in your sins".
If you DO believe in Him and are born again, then you wont die in your sins.

To be "lost", means that you HAVE THEM, and DIED< and you will be judged for only one.
The sin of Christ Rejection.
No one who is born again, has this situation, while everyone who isn't, has that damnation.

So, "to have your sin", is precisely what a Born again believer does not have, as Christ Has them, all.
His blood was shed for them ALL.
God as Christ, literally became the sin of the world and born the sin of us all.
This is "The Cross".
He "became sin", and died.
This resolves all your sin, if you are born again., which is why the born again are "made Righteous".
We can't have our sin, and also be "made righteous".
We can't be both "with sin" and "in Christ".

 

[Clare73]

Yes.

You can be water baptized and confirmed and all you are is religious but lost.
You can be preaching in a pulpit, seminary trained, and yet, religious but lost.
A person might be the one who never misses a Sunday in 40 yrs, until the day they die and end up wide eyed in hell wondering why all their effort didnt get them into heaven.
A.) ?
Jesus said.>>"you must be BORN AGAIN".

Can you be born again, and be worldly?
Of course.
Demas was born again, Mark was born again.
Both left the ministry, and Mark was used decades later by Paul.
Both were saved, but only Mark came back, after a long time away.

Do you mean Demetrius, rather than Demus?
Leaving the ministry is not leaving the faith, and is no indication of loss of faith.

"but didnt that leaving cause them to be lost"
Of course not.
Why? Because Jesus said..."i will never you or forsake you"...and HE keeps you saved, not you.

Can a person speak christianese fluently, and teach Sunday School and not be born again?
It happens all the time.

The verse that shows us.... " Depart from me, i never knew you", ..... is talking about people who were very religious, but not born again.
The " never knew you", in that verse, means that Christ never lived IN THEM.
God "knows you", when you are "ONE WITH GOD, IN Christ"
God knows you when you become a "SON of God".
To be "known" of God, is for God to be in you, because you are become "the temple of the Holy Spirit".
God "knows" all who are become HIS, as they are "blood bought", and have become a "new Creation".

 

[Clare73]

We don't have any righteousness of ourselves. Not ever.
This is why we are "made Righteous" by the blood of Jesus.
This is all of God, and none of us, which explains why God offers it through the Blood of Jesus as "The GIFT of Righteousness".
IF we dont have this Gift as our Sanctification/Holiness/Righteousness, then we are not holy. We are in fact not born again.

This is incomplete understanding, there is more in the NT of which you are unaware or have failed to consider.

The NT presents the righteousness of sanctification as a process of growing in holiness.

". . .be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy--Leviticus 11:44-45.' "
(1 Peter 1:15-16)

". . .called to be holy" (1 Corinthians 1:2)

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. (Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)"
(Ephesians 5:9)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

"Think on these things." (Php 4:8)

All your misunderstanding of the NT would rectify itself in the right understanding of the righteousness of justification as distinct from the righteouness of sanctification.

 

[Clare73]

Precisely what does this mean, and precisely where is this taught in the NT (book, chp and verse)?

It precisely means that Jesus said...>"if you dont believe in Me, you will die in your sins".
If you DO believe in Him and are born again, then you wont die in your sins.

And, therefore, the NT presents salvation in terms of faith, rather than sin which is confusing (John 3:18; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 10:6; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7).

To be "lost", means that you HAVE THEM, and DIED< and you will be judged for only one.
The sin of Christ Rejection.

Which is unbelief, and is the terms in which salvation is presented, and the only sin for which sinners are permanently condemned.

No one who is born again, has this situation, while everyone who isn't, has that damnation.

And that's about faith.

The NT presents salvation in terms of faith, and it is compounding, distracting, and confusing to use other terms.

There is much on the table which I have presented, and you have not addressed.

So, "to have your sin", is precisely what a Born again believer does not have, as Christ Has them, all.
His blood was shed for them ALL.
God as Christ, literally became the sin of the world and born the sin of us all.
This is "The Cross".
He "became sin", and died.
This resolves all your sin, if you are born again., which is why the born again are "made Righteous".
We can't have our sin, and also be "made righteous".
We can't be both "with sin" and "in Christ".

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ignoring what you choose not to accept, doesn't make what you believe, valid or correct.

Also, Paul certainly wrote Hebrews.
If you think he didnt, then that is because you are not familiar with Acts 28, and neither is the person who misled you from a pulpit, from a commentary, or from a "study bible" that is trash, and there are many of these available.

Acts 28, is Paul doing the same exact thing, He did in Hebrews 10.
He's dealing with (preaching the Gospel to)....= unsaved, Christ rejecting hateful Hebrews (Jews).
The difference is, in Acts 28, he gave up, and told them...>"im done, im taking the Gospel to the Gentiles, as they will BELIEVE IT".

In Acts 28 Paul does talk to unbelieving Jewish persons.

The Epistle to the Hebrews, however, is addressed to Christians. Otherwise nothing in the epistle makes sense. And no, there is nothing obvious about Hebrews having Pauline authorship. There is no reason to believe St. Paul wrote it, it doesn't fit his style, it doesn't bear his name. Which is why, even from the early centuries of the Church, its authorship has been a matter of speculation and dispute. Given that it has some similarity in themes with the Epistle of Barnabas, many attributed the authorship to St. Barnabas. Martin Luther thought it may have been authored by a colleague of Paul's, such as St. Apollos. And yes, there have been those who attributed to Paul.

Its author is unknown. Any attempt to attach a name to the text is, at best, merely hypothesis.

Additionally, you have attacked the very concept of looking at the original languages, and here you attack the very concept of educated clergy, commentaries, and other study resources.

What exactly is your church background?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

In Acts 28 Paul does talk to unbelieving Jewish persons.

The Epistle to the Hebrews, however, is addressed to Christians. Otherwise nothing in the epistle makes sense. And no, there is nothing obvious about Hebrews having Pauline authorship. There is no reason to believe St. Paul wrote it, it doesn't fit his style, it doesn't bear his name.

Which is why, even from the early centuries of the Church, its authorship has been a matter of speculation and dispute. Given that it has some similarity in themes with the Epistle of Barnabas, many attributed the authorship to St. Barnabas. Martin Luther thought it may have been authored by a colleague of Paul's, such as St. Apollos. And yes, there have been those who attributed to Paul.

I've always favored Apollos as its author, but Hebrews 13:22-25 stops me in my tracks.
It is a Pauline closing, especially v. 25.

Its author is unknown. Any attempt to attach a name to the text is, at best, merely hypothesis.

Additionally, you have attacked the very concept of looking at the original languages, and here you attack the very concept of educated clergy, commentaries, and other study resources.

What exactly is your church background?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

IF we dont have this Gift as our Sanctification/Holiness/Righteousness, then we are not holy. We are in fact not born again.

No response to posts #76, #81, #84, Biblical demonstrations of the righteousness of sanctification?

 

[Sidon]

Do you mean Demetrius, rather than Demus?
Leaving the ministry is not leaving the faith, and is no indication of loss of faith.

Yes....>Demas,

Im so glad he's mentioned in the NT.
As this is a person who was a part of Paul's ministry and decided to leave it all, apparently.
Unlike MARK, who came back later, and joined Paul .. there is no record in the NT that Demas ever came back to Paul or any of the apostles, to continue as a part of a ministry.
The reason i like to talk about the Demas situation is because it shows the extent of "Justification BY Faith"... because Demas is like many believers who grew cold and went back into the pleasures of iife.
The NT describes this as "having loved this present world"...
So, he just got caught up in what is down here to enjoy and stayed there.

What did he lose?
Well, he didnt lose his salvation, as Salvation is not based on or built on what we do.
Its only based on and built on What CHRIST Accomplished for us...
Salvation is a GIFT that God gives, and never is it a self effort we provide.

It'll be interesting to talk to Demas in Heaven and find out what happened....

 

[Sidon]

This is incomplete understanding, there is more in the NT of which you are unaware or have failed to consider.
The NT presents the righteousness of sanctificaton as a process of growing in holiness.
.

A lot of believers can't understand or comprehend the difference between SALVATION< which is what God as Jesus accomplished with The Cross, the Blood, the Death, and The resurrection...

vs..

Discipleship... which is our lifestyle we present back to God..after we are already "made righteous".

Many believers combine those as ONE, and that is why they talk about "here is what im doing, to keep myself saved".

And all that is, is a lack of understanding regarding what born again means, as compared to what it means to become a disciple. The lack of understanding is....the Faith Justified ARE ALREADY made righteous as : born again.

And regarding your sanctification.
Jesus is your sanctification, not you. 1 Corinthians 1:30
So, when you are trying to get better and better and grow in grace, more and more, that isn't your sanctification, as how much more sanctified can you be, than to be born again, as "the righteousness of God in Christ".

Now, in one of my previous Threads i talk about the TRANSFORMATION, that you might be thinking about which is the believer totally becoming...>"in the world but NOT OF>...the world".

So, a born again believer can't become more clean, more sinless, more righteous, then to be "the righteousness OF GOD.....In Christ"
So, thats the full portion, and the end of it.

And in that understanding, you then pursue your discipleship, knowing you are already MADE RIGHTEOUS, and kept so by the Blood of Jesus that is the Eternal Redemption.
So.. when you pursue your discipleship in that right understanding of who you have become as a "new creation IN CHRIST"< then you have the renewed mind.

When you suddenly KNOW by revelation that you are "the righteousness of God in Christ" always, and never does this change, then a believer is taking their first steps inside the Grace of God, as "the renewed mind".

Most believers, never even get close to this revelation, and that blame falls to their preacher, pastor, pope, minister, bishop, who whoever it is, that has them as their sheep, and they have not fed their sheep the real LIGHT.

 

[Sidon]

And, therefore, the NT presents salvation in terms of faith, rather than sin which is confusing (John 3:18; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 10:6; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 11:7).
Which is unbelief, and is the terms in which salvation is presented, and the only sin for which sinners are permanently condemned.
And that's about faith.

The NT presents salvation in terms of faith, and it is compounding, distracting, and confusing to use other terms.
There is much on the table which I have presented, and you have not addressed.

Yes, you write a lot.
I have addressed it.

What i do is take your main point, and deal with that, as you tend to write many points, but they are generally similar.
Our conversation tends to me.....
"sidon says this" and "clare73 disagrees", and then you repost the disagreement, again".
Thats fine.
If you feel that im not targeting enough of what you are saying, then just ask me questions, and i'll cut and paste and answer each, if that works for you.

And... you are correct.
You described the unpardonable sin, as one sin, and its the sin of Christ Rejection.
For example, In Hebrews 10, you have unsaved Hebrews who are hearing the Gospel, and they are hateful in their response to deny it,.. so much so, that Paul likens them to "Your Father's" who were the ones who conspired to have The Lord nailed.
Paul says these Christ rejecting Hebrews are doing the exact same thing, "willfully"..
If you "sin willfully", this sin of Christ Rejection....>"there remains no more sacrifice" (for your sin), as you have just Rejected Christ....He tells them.
That is the unpardonable sin, and this Apostle is PLEADING with these unsaved Hebrews.....not to do that.
They did it anyway, same as their "Father's."
And they did it again, in Acts 28, the last 10 verses.
Same thing again.
Same Apostle, dealing with unsaved HEBREWS (Jews).

 

[Sidon]

In Acts 28 Paul does talk to unbelieving Jewish persons.The Epistle to the Hebrews, however, is addressed to Christians.
What exactly is your church background?
-CryptoLutheran

Let me show you this..

You are correct.. it is the Epistle TO the Hebrews. vs, To the CHURCH at Ephesis, or Corinith.
Thats right.
THere is a big difference between writing to "hebrews" vs addressing the CHURCH, within the first chapter of a Letter an Apostle wrote.

Not all the verses in the NT, are directed theologically or doctrinally at believers.
Ok?
For example, Paul once caused a Male Witch, to go BLIND.
Thats a "Verse" in the NEW TESTAMENT.
So, is that verse for you? Is it talking to you?
How's your eyesight....

Another verse said that the argument and disagreement between Paul and Barnabas, was so intense, that they SPLIT forever down here.
So, is that verse "doctrine for the Church"., ViaCrucis?

Paul said that he asked God 3x, THREE TIMES", to make a horrible situation that was causing Paul pain and misery and agony, GO AWAY.
So, is that the NT talking to YOU?

Paul was once stoned to death and was received up into the "3rd Heaven" and saw great things, that he mostly didnt share.
So, is that doctrine for the Church?

Here is my point, Viacrusis,
Its often the case that an Apostle is being a MINISTER to the UNBELIEVING, in some Verses.
Paul does this more than any of them, and in fact states that he did more works for God than all the other apostles combined.
He said that.
Peter, in 2nd Peter, says that the epistles that Paul wrote, are equal in THAT day, to the OLD TESTAMENT. (Torah).
And that is true, as Paul's letters became all the Church Doctrine, and 73% of the entire New Testament that you hold in your hand when you pick one up.

What am i showing you? ??
LIGHT.
Im showing you that in all the epistles of Paul, and sometimes Jude, and others, you find them PREACHING to the DAMNED. .They are trying to win souls, as that is what they were Mostly DOING.
Their main ministry was not writing letters, but it was SHARING THE GOSPEL to the WORLD.
See it?
And so, you sometimes find Paul dealing with unsaved Jews in the NT, as well as teaching the body of Christ some doctrine.
When you find Paul preaching to HEBREWS, then that is Paul preaching to the Lost.
When you find Him talking about the BLood of the New Covenant, in Hebrews Chapters 9, then that is Paul's talking to You, in the same Epistle.

You are told by God to "rightly DIVIDE" the word of God.
To SEE THE DIFFERENCES. to DISCERN them., as you can't just read and see.
And you are trying to see it as all ONE, by reading.
Can't be done.
You have to rightly divide by DISCERNING. and that is why all believers need a good teacher.
A good teacher can get you grounded in Grace... Hebrews 13:9, and have you deep within the revelation of God's Grace, in hours, vs, sitting in church on Sunday, for 20 yrs of Sunday's, and all you're learning how to hope the minister keeps it short so that you can "get out on time".

This is what im showing you. Im showing you, and others, that you have to be taught how to "rightly DIVIDE" verses, which is to SEE THEM..... so that you are not applying what is not for you to yourself, vs, understanding what IS for you, when you read a verse.

 

[Sidon]

Biblical demonstrations of the righteousness of sanctification?

Ive responded to every one of your Posts.
So, that you dont agree with my response, does not mean i didnt respond to them.

If you have those 3 points you want to further discuss.... then there is something specific in there that you want me to address.
Well, post it as a question, 3 questions, and i can then be really specific for you, again.
What i wont deal with, is someone posting 134 verses, that tend to be unrelated, and they say.>>"see there".""
So, don't do that, if possible.
Post to me your questions that you feel is your disagreement PROOF, so that we can deal specifically with what you THINK.

Also, what is the NT definition of Sanctification?
Its this....

"Jesus is become our sanctification, and our righteousness".

So, if we are "IN CHRIST" then we have literally become that verse, which is why the NT tells us that:
"as Christ IS...so are the born again IN This WORLD".
If we are like Him, then that includes our sanctificaiton.
Any demonstration of that, would be found as discipleship, as when you become "the righteousness of God, in Christ", you can't see it., as its a Spiritual Birth.
You can't SEE being "born again" as it happens to your dead Spirit inside you.
But the FRUIT of a changed life, outwardly, the deed and works, prove that the Sanctification that is to be found "IN CHRIST"< will be found as our "spiritual fruit".

In James.. He is talking to some backsliders, about their "dead faith".
And He says...."i'll show YOU my FAITH, by my WORKS".
So, the FAITH that James had, is what God accepted to Justify Him long before he wrote that verse, and the works that James is showing, would be your idea of sanctification, which is actually just discipleship.
If you want to think of your discipleship as your daily process of lifestyle sanctification, that is the bearing of spiritual fruit and good works in front of other people, as James is talking about his, then that's great.

Will be back tomorrow, to talk more....

 

[ViaCrucis]

Let me show you this..

You are correct.. it is the Epistle TO the Hebrews. vs, To the CHURCH at Ephesis, or Corinith.
Thats right.
THere is a big difference between writing to "hebrews" vs addressing the CHURCH, within the first chapter of a Letter an Apostle wrote.

Not all the verses in the NT, are directed theologically or doctrinally at believers.
Ok?
For example, Paul once caused a Male Witch, to go BLIND.
Thats a "Verse" in the NEW TESTAMENT.
So, is that verse for you? Is it talking to you?
How's your eyesight....

Another verse said that the argument and disagreement between Paul and Barnabas, was so intense, that they SPLIT forever down here.
So, is that verse "doctrine for the Church"., ViaCrucis?

Paul said that he asked God 3x, THREE TIMES", to make a horrible situation that was causing Paul pain and misery and agony, GO AWAY.
So, is that the NT talking to YOU?

Paul was once stoned to death and was received up into the "3rd Heaven" and saw great things, that he mostly didnt share.
So, is that doctrine for the Church?

Here is my point, Viacrusis,
Its often the case that an Apostle is being a MINISTER to the UNBELIEVING, in some Verses.
Paul does this more than any of them, and in fact states that he did more works for God than all the other apostles combined.
He said that.
Peter, in 2nd Peter, says that the epistles that Paul wrote, are equal in THAT day, to the OLD TESTAMENT. (Torah).
And that is true, as Paul's letters became all the Church Doctrine, and 73% of the entire New Testament that you hold in your hand when you pick one up.

What am i showing you? ??
LIGHT.
Im showing you that in all the epistles of Paul, and sometimes Jude, and others, you find them PREACHING to the DAMNED. .They are trying to win souls, as that is what they were Mostly DOING.
Their main ministry was not writing letters, but it was SHARING THE GOSPEL to the WORLD.
See it?
And so, you sometimes find Paul dealing with unsaved Jews in the NT, as well as teaching the body of Christ some doctrine.
When you find Paul preaching to HEBREWS, then that is Paul preaching to the Lost.
When you find Him talking about the BLood of the New Covenant, in Hebrews Chapters 9, then that is Paul's talking to You, in the same Epistle.

You are told by God to "rightly DIVIDE" the word of God.
To SEE THE DIFFERENCES. to DISCERN them., as you can't just read and see.
And you are trying to see it as all ONE, by reading.
Can't be done.
You have to rightly divide by DISCERNING. and that is why all believers need a good teacher.
A good teacher can get you grounded in Grace... Hebrews 13:9, and have you deep within the revelation of God's Grace, in hours, vs, sitting in church on Sunday, for 20 yrs of Sunday's, and all you're learning how to hope the minister keeps it short so that you can "get out on time".

This is what im showing you. Im showing you, and others, that you have to be taught how to "rightly DIVIDE" verses, which is to SEE THEM..... so that you are not applying what is not for you to yourself, vs, understanding what IS for you, when you read a verse.

Rightly dividing Scripture is a good thing. But that isn't what you are doing. You are arbitarily picking and choosing the meaning of Scripture for the express purpose of conforming with your pre-determined theological conclusions. You are not allowing Scripture to breathe and speak, but you are suffocating the sacred word of Scripture to suit your own agenda.

The warning the author of Hebrews gives is a warning not to those who have never believed, but to those who believe, this is made evident in many places throughout the epistle,

"Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope." (Hebrews 3:1-6)

"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said,

'Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.'

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." - Hebrews 3:12-19

The warning the author gives here is against those who have believed now falling away, this is continued in the next chapter of the epistle,

"Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest," - Hebrews 4:1-3

And now, keep reading the epistle. Read it in context, the context which the author themselves provides for you.

The warnings in the Epistle to the Hebrews is directed toward falling away from the faith, it mentions those who already have fallen away, and speaks of those who were even then perhaps tempted to fall away. The author is calling his readers to become more bold in their faith, to not flee away from the Gospel because of suffering and tribulation--but to remain firm in the confidence of that hope which they received when they heard the word proclaimed in their midst.

Read the text--really read it. Read it for what it is actually saying.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Sidon]

Rightly dividing Scripture is a good thing. But that isn't what you are doing. You are arbitarily picking and choosing the meaning of Scripture for the express purpose of conforming with your pre-determined theological conclusions.
-CryptoLutheran

No, im too long into my calling to ever be one of those deceiver people.

See, let show you something.
To rightly divide the word, can only be accomplished, if you have a renewed mind.
To find that, to become that, you have to start in this verse, and become this verse.
Hebrews 13:9
So, that is a verse in a epistle that deals with Christ Rejecting Jews, and it also contains amazing revelation, in certain chapters, for the believer.

You are familiar with the fact that before you could ride a bike, you had to learn to crawl on the floor.

Now, using that analogy , then, compare it to, "babes in Christ", who need "milk".

So, what happens when a babe in Christ, is trying to teach the New Testament on a Forum?, and why does that fail, and harm other believers?
Its because they are trying to be the authority, when they have not yet left the tit.

This is why no forum is safe for a new believer.
There is not a Christian forum on God's earth, where a one day old babe in Christ can go, and be safe from deceivers who are deceived and will destroy their faith in one day.

This is the same reason and reality, as the WHY you have thousands and thousands of denominations.
its because a babe in Christ, or worse, a religious self righteous NUT, never born again, started the church.

Listen...
When you run across a teacher, that is 100% Pauline Theology, and you note that every Thread and Post, strongly strongly gives all credit to Christ alone for saving you and keeping you saved, then NOTE that teacher and their teaching.
As you won't find many in this world, and when you do, they will sound just like me.

So, when ""rightly dividing""......there is only one way to do it.
Just one.
You have to have a spiritual eye, (the eyes of your understanding being opened) by God.
He will only do this if you are deeply deeply secure in your understanding of God's Grace, AS "The gift of righteousness" and "the Gift of Salvation'.
See, anyone who isn't...... is chasing heresy and teaching it.
They are the people in Hebrews 13:9 that you don't want to become.
You want to become the one whose "HEART is GROUNDED IN GRACE", says that verse.
And why is that?
Because if its not, if your heart is not "grounded in GRACE"... then the bible will lock itself from you, as GRACE is the KEY that unlocks the "rightly dividing".

Grace is like the light that lets you SEE, the Light of the word.
Its the understanding of the Grace of GOD that is the LIGHT that reveals His word.
This Grace, is Christ in you. He is the Grace. He has all the treasures of wisdom and Knowledge, because He is the WORD, that is the word of God.

If you are born again, and not just water baptized... then the WORD, who is Christ the REVEALER of the word, is in you.
"Christ in you, the hope of Glory". Christ said that the born again, Himself, and God, are "ONE".
He is your LIGHT, as Christ is the Light of the World, and you are a Child of the Light, if you are born again, and not just water baptized.
So, what happens is, the revelation of the Bible, that HE REVEALS in you, is stopped, unless you learn how to crawl. Hebrews 13:9
This means you have to master the fundamentals of PAULINE THEOLOGY, the "gospel of GRACE", "justification by Faith", "the Gift of Righteousness", "the GIFT of Salvation". You have to completely understand how you are "made Righteous", by God, through the blood of Jesus.
You have to understand why, Romans 4:8, says that God does not count sin against the Born again.
You have to comprehend deeply, Romans 3:21-28. and much more that PAUL wrote.
You have to master all of those by : "study to show yourself approved to God".

Most Christians dont, and yet they want to teach, and ""appear"" to be the authority.

Babes in Christ are on MILK and that MILK is Paul's epistles. Paul's Doctrine.
That is where you learn the KEY to the NT's LIGHT, that he mostly wrote.

So, see what i just showed you?
Lets say that one day, im gone from this site.
And you notice that 20 more, "bible teachers" come here.
Some have had "visions" and some say that "god told me to tell you", and all this jazz...
Well, how do you know they are not Satan's ministers, as his "ministers of Righteousness"?
They will all speak '"christianese". They will all talk about commandments and the law, and water baptism.
The devil loves to talk about all those "works'.
So how do you know who is the dark light and not the true light?

A.) Notice what i do.
Notice how i always lift up the CROSS and never do i let any idea of "self effort" be misused as Salvation.
Notice that Paul never lets any "works" or "commandment keeping", or "water baptism", be used in PLACE of God's BLOOD ATONEMENT.
That's how you know the teacher is legit.
You shall know them by THAT fruit.

so, you remember that.


Ill probably eventually edit this post and turn it into a Thread, as it can help a sincere seeker who is struggling to get away from all they know is false, yet can't quite discern= the theology of the false, yet.
They know that what they have been taught, is junk, because their Christianity has no power, no life, no anonting.
They are stuck trying to be good, and failing as a person who only keeps sinning and confessing. They know this can't be real Christianity, as why would Christ die so that you can then exist as a sinning and confessing, mind of condemnation.
They know this can't be real faith, real christianity, yet, they are stuck in a "church" that keeps them JUST LIKE THAT for LIFE< unless they figure it out.
So, that is what i do. I help this person figure it out, and that becomes their real deliverance and their real faith., just as God intended for them to be FREE.
God came to set us FREE, not keep us in bondage to self , and works and law and commandments , and worry about "losing our salvation".
There is no freedom found in any of that deceit, because its all a LIE.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No, im too long into my calling to ever be one of those deceiver people.

As a student of Church History I can tell you quite easily that there have been no shortage of false teachers who were firmly committed to their belief that they had some special calling from God.

Marcion of Sinope (born c. 85 AD, died c. 160 AD) was a wealthy merchant son of a Christian bishop from what is now modern Turkey, he moved to Rome and joined the congregation there, even donating a large sum of money to help the church out. Then Marcion became absolutely convinced--some early histories suggest that he came under the influence of certain other heretical teachers--that the God of the Old Testament was an entirely different God than the God of the New Testament, and so taught that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, Abba, was the one true God; while the God of the Old Testament, YHWH, was a false god. Marcion was excommunicated when he refused to heed correction from those who were more studied in the Scriptures, and who had received their calling directly from the apostles themselves.

Marcion, remaining absolutely convinced he was right, against the correction and rebuke of the Church, decided to return back to his native Asia (Turkey), and established his own rival church. Marcion even produced the earliest "New Testament" that ever existed (as there was no New Testament Canon yet at this time), consisting of ten of Paul's letters, and a heavily edited version of Luke's Gospel. In fact it is precisely this act of Marcion that was likely a major catalyst in getting Christian pastors to begin to take more seriously having a more well defined Canon of Scripture, and by the end of the second century we have the Muratorian Fragment listening what the New Testament of the time looked like, consisting of most of the books we know today which had been accepted since early on, as well as those books which were still being disputed (such as 2 and 3 John, 2 Peter, James, Jude, Hebrews, and the Revelation of John).

And that's just one early example. There are many, many, many more than this. We can even go earlier, to the example of Simon Magus mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, who as you are aware tried to purchase the power of the Holy Spirit from the Apostles because he wanted power, not salvation. He was sharply rebuked by St. Peter. According to our historical accounts, Simon Magus went on to start his own religious movement holding himself to be a messianic figure of some sort. Early Christian histories often attribute to Simon Magus as being the father of the Gnostic heresy, though this is, at the very least, probably an exageration--though Magus may have contributed to early proto-Gnostic ideas which we see condemned in a number of New Testament works, such as in the 2nd Epistle of John which identifies the heresy of Docetism with antichrist (2 John 1:7).

My point is simply this: Just because you are convinced of your "calling" in your own mind does not make you immune from being a false teacher. The spirit of heresy is always found in the hubris of man standing against the word of God which has been received and proclaimed from the beginning.

Just because you call yourself a teacher and talk about being "called" means absolutely nothing. What matters is the substance of what you teach, and the substance of what you teach is in error.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Yes....>Demas, Im so glad he's mentioned in the NT.
As this is a person who was a part of Paul's ministry and decided to leave it all, apparently.
Unlike MARK, who came back later, and joined Paul .. there is no record in the NT that Demas ever came back to Paul or any of the apostles, to continue as a part of a ministry.

The reason i like to talk about the Demas situation is because it shows the extent of "Justification BY Faith"... because Demas is like many believers who grew cold and went back into the pleasures of iife.
The NT describes this as "having loved this present world"...

Abandonment of ministry is not abandonment of faith and, therefore, his salvation is not an issue.

Permanent abandonment of faith means one was never born again and saved in the first place, so there is no salvation to lose.

So, he just got caught up in what is down here to enjoy and stayed there.

What did he lose?
Well, he didnt lose his salvation, as Salvation is not based on or built on what we do.

Not so sure about his state, since John reveals, "If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him," (1 John 2:15). There is no salvation if the love of the Father is not in one.

Its only based on and built on What CHRIST Accomplished for us...
Salvation is a GIFT that God gives, and never is it a self effort we provide.

It'll be interesting to talk to Demas in Heaven and find out what happened....

He won't be there if he permanently abandoned the faith.

Are you going to respond to my posts #81 and #84, above?
You are very bright, personable and have a great heart, but you are seriously Biblically misinformed which eventually could be your undoing.

My two posts are a road map for rectifying your misdirection and bringing you into the consistent truth of the NT revelation which you so love.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73, you are describing how to live as "unity of mind", regarding all believers.
That is how it should be. But do you see 40,000 denominations?
That is the reality.
That is what happens when there is no AGREEMENT regarding the main thing that produces UNITY of MIND, among brethren.
Its the misunderstanding of "SALVATION".

It is more than that, including misunderstanding of the necessity of sanctifiction.

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

So, what has happened is that the confession of sin, is now your savior, as the person is trusting..... that as long as they do THAT...... they keep themselves saved.
= "fallen from Grace".

You correctly understand the principle of not losing salvation, but your misinformation applies that principle in a totally contra-Biblical manner.
You don't keep your salvation by confessing sin, you demonstrate your salvation by confessing sin, because in the Christian life true faith deals with the believer's imperfection by confession and repentance.
In the name of "Jesus saves," which you understand correctly, you seek to correct what you see as a misunderstanding by some of 1 John 1:9, regarding confession and repentance as requirements to "keep" one's salvation.

Not understanding what the NT presents regarding the necessary works of obedience in sanctification, you assume all works of obedience are "keeping" one's salvation. . .which is your error.

The fundamental problem creating your confusion is the difference between the righteousnes of justification (apart from works) and the righteousness of sanctification by the Holy Spirit (through works of obedience).
You are not alone in your unclear grasp of these two kinds of righteousness in the NT.

Justification = declaration of "not guilty," where Christ's righteousness is imputed/credited to one (Romans 5:17-19) through faith apart from works, giving permanent right-standing (not holiness) with God's justice.

Sanctification = growth in holiness/righteousness by the Holy Spirit through works of obedience (presented in post #99, below).

If there are those who really think "saved--lost--saved--lost," and you are not mis-identifying their belief, then you've correctly identified a problem, but your solution for it is contra-Biblical.

All your misunderstanding of the NT would rectify itself in the right understanding of the righteousness of justification as distinct from the righteouness of sanctification (presented in post #99, below).

 

[Clare73]

A lot of believers can't understand or comprehend the difference between SALVATION< which is what God as Jesus accomplished with The Cross, the Blood, the Death, and The resurrection...vs..Discipleship... which is our lifestyle we present back to God..after we are already "made righteous".

We are made righteous in relation to our sentence of condemnation. The righteousness of justification is not our transformation, it is simply a crediting of Jesus' righteousness to us which justifies us--a declaration by God of "not guilty," giving us permanent right-standing with God's justice; never to be condemned again. It is a Court function.

And regarding your sanctification.
Jesus is your sanctification, not you. 1 Corinthians 1:30
So, when you are trying to get better and better and grow in grace, more and more, that isn't your sanctification, as how much more sanctified can you be, than to be born again, as "the righteousness of God in Christ".

We are in Christ who has become for us the wisdom of God; i.e., the source of our righteousness, holiness and redemption, through obedience in the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:30), whereby we
are being transformed into the likeness of the Lord with ever increasing glory (2 Corinthians 2:13).

The "discipleship" of which you speak is the process wherein we engage and grow in the righteousness of sanctification, i.e., holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit, everywhere testified to and prescribed in the NT:

". . .be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy--Leviticus 11:44-45.' "
(1 Peter 1:15-16)

". . .called to be holy" (1 Corinthians 1:2)

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. (Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)"
(Ephesians 5:9)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

The NT presents two kinds of righteousness:

righteousness of justification - permanent right-standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," never to be condemned again, which is not holiness;

righteousness of sanctification - process of growth in holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

It is your misunderstanding of sanctification that causes you to deny that 1 John was written only to believers, and that Hebrews was written to professing Christians.

It is the cause of much of your wrong doctrine.
Won't you "think on these things"? (Php 4:8)

 

[Clare73]

Ive responded to every one of your Posts.
So, that you dont agree with my response, does not mean i didnt respond to them.

If you have those 3 points you want to further discuss.... then there is something specific in there that you want me to address.
Well, post it as a question, 3 questions, and i can then be really specific for you, again.

What i wont deal with, is someone posting 134 verses, that tend to be unrelated, and they say.>>"see there".""
So, don't do that, if possible.
Post to me your questions that you feel is your disagreement PROOF, so that we can deal specifically with what you THINK.

See posts #98 and #99.

Also, what is the NT definition of Sanctification?

It's the same in the OT and the NT:
Set apart. . .from sin, and to God.

You take a lot of freedom with the texts.

Its this....

"Jesus is become our sanctification, and our righteousness".

So, if we are "IN CHRIST" then we have literally become that verse, which is why the NT tells us that:
"as Christ IS...so are the born again IN This WORLD".
If we are like Him, then that includes our sanctificaiton.
Any demonstration of that, would be found as discipleship, as when you become "the righteousness of God, in Christ", you can't see it., as its a Spiritual Birth.
You can't SEE being "born again" as it happens to your dead Spirit inside you.
But the FRUIT of a changed life, outwardly, the deed and works, prove that the Sanctification that is to be found "IN CHRIST"< will be found as our "spiritual fruit".

In James.. He is talking to some backsliders, about their "dead faith".
And He says...."i'll show YOU my FAITH, by my WORKS".
So, the FAITH that James had, is what God accepted to Justify Him long before he wrote that verse, and the works that James is showing, would be your idea of sanctification, which is actually just discipleship.
If you want to think of your discipleship as your daily process of lifestyle sanctification, that is the bearing of spiritual fruit and good works in front of other people, as James is talking about his, then that's great.

Will be back tomorrow, to talk more....