Do you get saved through baptism?

[Floatingaxe]

Exactly! We receive The Holy Spirit at our salvation.

If the apostles had been cleansed and received The Holy Spirit inside already in John 20:22, they would not need to be cleansed again over in acts 2.

Right! Who said that they required cleansing? Anointing is not cleansing, but rather it is empowering that which is already cleansed and fit for service to the King.

We receive a measure of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but at the baptism of the Holy Spirit we receive an overflowing abundance of Him and His power. Full to overflowing!

 

[ARBITER01]

Right! Who said that they required cleansing? Anointing is not cleansing, but rather it is empowering that which is already cleansed and fit for service to the King.

We receive a measure of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but at the baptism of the Holy Spirit we receive an overflowing abundance of Him and His power. Full to overflowing!

Axe, you are incorporating your own personal terminologies to try and explain acts 2 here, do you know that?

Jesus was very specific about what was going to happen at Pentecost,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

Immersed in the Greek is this,..

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G911
Citing in TDNT: 1:529, 92

Jesus is telling them that they were to receive their cleansing, washing, and empowering of The Holy Spirit soon, and it happened at the fulfilling of Pentecost.

I'm sorry, but we are to go off of the understanding we have from the Greek used in the scriptures here, not what we think things should say and mean, hence why the specific word usage here of "immersed" by Jesus tells the story about what really happened here instead of over in John 20:22.

John 20:22 obviously was Jesus directing them to wait upon The Holy Spirit that was coming since Jesus would not have used "immersed" if He had given them the salvation of The Holy Spirit there and then instead of over in Acts 2.

I'm sorry, but you cannot get around the Greek here employed by Jesus Himself.

 

[Zecryphon]

You seem upset for some reason, that would be your problem.

I'm not upset. I simply said don't patronize me. If you've got a problem with that request, that says more about you than it does about me.

You also seem to be trying to assert that our salvation is somehow not associated with The Holy Spirit's activities to us, that is a very wrong view my friend,..

We are saved because of the shed blood of Christ. Blood cleanses sin. Nowhere in scripture is your assertion, that no one was saved until the Holy Spirit was given, supported.

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
​

Immersed is a correct translation of the Greek word used here. Water was symbolic of The Holy Spirit's actions upon us, as used by John The Baptist, but he himself pointed us to Jesus and His baptism by The Holy Spirit as the true "immersion" of repentance.

That's funny, cuz I've heard that John couldn't have immersed with water as the depth of the Jordan river at that time of year didn't allow for it.

There is no other way to receive our salvation outside of the agency of The Holy Spirit's actions upon us after we come to Jesus. We are sealed unto the day of our redemption, and that seal is The Holy Spirit within us bearing witness to our spirit when we cry Abba, Father.

Maybe you should try to understand these things in scripture?

Maybe you should knock off the condescension and actually prove that it is the Holy Spirit that saves us instead of Christ. Since that actually is your assertion here. But ya know what? I have asked you repeatedly to answer a simple question and you CAN NOT do it. So since you have nothing to offer me that's of any value other than condescension and arrogance, I'll stop posting to you.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm not upset. I simply said don't patronize me. If you've got a problem with that request, that says more about you than it does about me.

We are saved because of the shed blood of Christ. Blood cleanses sin. Nowhere in scripture is your assertion, that no one was saved until the Holy Spirit was given, supported.

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
​

That's funny, cuz I've heard that John couldn't have immersed with water as the depth of the Jordan river at that time of year didn't allow for it.

Maybe you should knock off the condescension and actually prove that it is the Holy Spirit that saves us instead of Christ. Since that actually is your assertion here. But ya know what? I have asked you repeatedly to answer a simple question and you CAN NOT do it. So since you have nothing to offer me that's of any value other than condescension and arrogance, I'll stop posting to you.

Mainly I wanted to answer questions that actually pertained to the topic we were discussing, which is water baptism, and with people who were looking at the scriptures instead of their personal doctrine or belief they wanted to defend. I actually enjoy debating with Axe because she and I actually do agree on many topics, and we can keep our words in love for the most part.

You jumped into the blood of Jesus, and the work upon the cross, but failed to understand that the blood is applied through the agency of The Holy Spirit to our spirit at our salvation. The blood of Jesus is not applied to us in any other way.

You're not required to post to me, and it doesn't make for good conversation when you are unable to maintain yourself or your words in your posts anyways.

 

[Zecryphon]

.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Axe, you are incorporating your own personal terminologies to try and explain acts 2 here, do you know that?

No I am not.

Jesus was very specific about what was going to happen at Pentecost,..

Immersed in the Greek is this,..

Jesus is telling them that they were to receive their cleansing, washing, and empowering of The Holy Spirit soon, and it happened at the fulfilling of Pentecost.

I'm sorry, but we are to go off of the understanding we have from the Greek used in the scriptures here, not what we think things should say and mean, hence why the specific word usage here of "immersed" by Jesus tells the story about what really happened here instead of over in John 20:22.

John 20:22 obviously was Jesus directing them to wait upon The Holy Spirit that was coming since Jesus would not have used "immersed" if He had given them the salvation of The Holy Spirit there and then instead of over in Acts 2.

I'm sorry, but you cannot get around the Greek here employed by Jesus Himself.

Nope. Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit on them by BREATHING ON THEM, just as the Word tells us.

They were then baptized with the power of the Holy Spirit at pentecost.

When I was saved I was cleansed ny the blood of Jesus christ shed on the cross. When I was baptized with water, I was symbolically cleansed and identified with Him in His death and resurrection. When I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, I had already been viewed as cleansed and i was empowered with gifts and anointed in them. It has nothing to do with cleansing, but everything to do with anointing. It flows like oil over us and covers us.



Are you saying that those who never bother to receive water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit after receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour by faith are not saved?

 

[Simon_Templar]

Do you get saved through baptism or by faith alone? Use verses if possible. Please no debates.

Your question is a false dichotemy. You have set "baptism" on one side and "faith alone" on the other as though they are opposed, when biblically they are not.

Baptism is a part of how God saves people under normal circumstances. It is possible to be saved WITHOUT baptism, because God can do as he likes, he is not bound to always do things only one way.

However, the scriptures make it clear that baptism is a normally necessary part of being spiritually regenerated.

There are several references in scripture which link baptism to the forgiveness of sins, and also to the death of our 'old man' and the birth of the new.

2 references in Acts directly link baptism to the forgiveness of sins.
In Romans 6 Paul says that when we were baptized, we died with Christ (the old man died and was buried) and because we died with him in baptism, we will also be raised with him.

Titus 3:5 and John chapter 3 both relate baptism to spiritual rebirth.

Peter compares baptism to the flood and he explicitly says that as Noah and his family were saved through the water of the flood, "so baptism now saves you." He then goes on to say that the water of baptism is not for physical cleansing but that it gives you a clean conscience before God.


Titus 3 says that God saved us not by our works, but by HIS mercy in the washing of regeneration, and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

the phrase washing of regeneration is referring to baptism. The word washing in greek is not the normal word for wash, like you would wash your hands. Rather it is a verb form of the noun "bath" which was used to describe ceremonial baths such as were common in Judaism, and which baptism is a form of.

But Titus here makes it clear that baptism is not a human work.. it isn't a work that we do.. it is a work of God's mercy and grace.

Thus baptism is not at all a magic formula. (and I've never really met anyone who believed it was) God is not bound to do a work in someone simply because they've been dunked or sprinkled. It is a work that God does in response to faith, and he has chosen, for whatever reason, to do that work in baptism (under normal circumstances). He can do it without baptism if he wishes to do so.

There is something important about faith though. The bible, in my opinion, seems to strongly indicate that faith is only 'real' or 'living' when it is expressed... which is why I tend to believe that God has chosen to use rituals like baptism.

 

[HumbleServant94]

Your question is a false dichotemy. You have set "baptism" on one side and "faith alone" on the other as though they are opposed, when biblically they are not.

Baptism is a part of how God saves people under normal circumstances. It is possible to be saved WITHOUT baptism, because God can do as he likes, he is not bound to always do things only one way.

However, the scriptures make it clear that baptism is a normally necessary part of being spiritually regenerated.

There are several references in scripture which link baptism to the forgiveness of sins, and also to the death of our 'old man' and the birth of the new.

2 references in Acts directly link baptism to the forgiveness of sins.
In Romans 6 Paul says that when we were baptized, we died with Christ (the old man died and was buried) and because we died with him in baptism, we will also be raised with him.

Titus 3:5 and John chapter 3 both relate baptism to spiritual rebirth.

Peter compares baptism to the flood and he explicitly says that as Noah and his family were saved through the water of the flood, "so baptism now saves you." He then goes on to say that the water of baptism is not for physical cleansing but that it gives you a clean conscience before God.


Titus 3 says that God saved us not by our works, but by HIS mercy in the washing of regeneration, and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

the phrase washing of regeneration is referring to baptism. The word washing in greek is not the normal word for wash, like you would wash your hands. Rather it is a verb form of the noun "bath" which was used to describe ceremonial baths such as were common in Judaism, and which baptism is a form of.

But Titus here makes it clear that baptism is not a human work.. it isn't a work that we do.. it is a work of God's mercy and grace.

Thus baptism is not at all a magic formula. (and I've never really met anyone who believed it was) God is not bound to do a work in someone simply because they've been dunked or sprinkled. It is a work that God does in response to faith, and he has chosen, for whatever reason, to do that work in baptism (under normal circumstances). He can do it without baptism if he wishes to do so.

There is something important about faith though. The bible, in my opinion, seems to strongly indicate that faith is only 'real' or 'living' when it is expressed... which is why I tend to believe that God has chosen to use rituals like baptism.

Sorry, what I meant to say was if you needed baptism to get saved.

And guys, I said no debates.

 

[MrJim]

And guys, I said no debates.

Oh they're not debating, just another family discussion

that gets a little rowdy around the edges

really they don't mean any harm

just kinda like brothers in the backyard that might get carried away sometimes

 

[Rhamiel]

I like the way Simon Templar put it, baptism is the normal way that God saves people

 

[ARBITER01]

No I am not.



Nope. Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit on them by BREATHING ON THEM, just as the Word tells us.

They were then baptized with the power of the Holy Spirit at pentecost.

When I was saved I was cleansed ny the blood of Jesus christ shed on the cross. When I was baptized with water, I was symbolically cleansed and identified with Him in His death and resurrection. When I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, I had already been viewed as cleansed and i was empowered with gifts and anointed in them. It has nothing to do with cleansing, but everything to do with anointing. It flows like oil over us and covers us.



Are you saying that those who never bother to receive water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit after receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour by faith are not saved?

Alright, let's go step by step here,..

Axe this is the definition of that word baptism,..

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G911
Citing in TDNT: 1:529, 92

Do you agree with that?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Immerese, cleanse, etc, but not all meanings at the same time. You have to be rational about it. The anointing oil was always poured liberallu over the man, and so the Holy Spirit baptism is like that ancient oil anointing that ran down over Aaron's beard---we are sent out as priests of God.

Psalm 133:2
For harmony is as precious as the anointing oil
that was poured over Aaron’s head,
that ran down his beard
and onto the border of his robe.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Sorry, what I meant to say was if you needed baptism to get saved.

And guys, I said no debates.

No problem I hope I didn't come off as getting in your face over it. The way you phrased the question implies a view point that is actually very common. I just wanted to show that the view point, which many people take as a granted, is not really true. Baptism is not opposed to salvation by Faith.

many people are conditioned to look at any action as a "work". They don't stop to ask if that assumption is really true.

consider it this way.. the bible says in one place believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, and you shall be saved. Confessing with the mouth is an outward action.. does that mean it is a work and not faith?

This also illustrates a problem that many people get into with biblical statements like that one. It says believe with your heart and confess with your mouth.
When people see things like that they tend to make it a stricture.. in otherwords saying "it can ONLY ever happen this way." But of course if we think about it.. we can see that if confession with the mouth were taken so strictly.. it would leave all mute people out.

I believe that if someone were to make a genuine profession of faith and were then to die before they were baptized.. they would be saved. I don't question that. Contrary to the opinion of many, that is also what the early Church taught. They referred to it as the baptism of desire. If someone made a profession of faith and desired to be baptised, but died first, they were saved.

However, what I see in the bible tells me that God has chosen to use baptism as his normal means of accomplishing his work of spiritual regeneration (being born again). Thus, unless a person dies, or there is some other circumstance that prevents it, I believe you must be baptized to be a Christian and to be a part of the Church.

When I say "circumstance" I don't include things like being afraid of persecution... but I do think that God judges people based on the light they were given.. in other words, if someone was taught a wrong view of baptism their whole life but they had genuine faith, then I think God will save them.
In situations like that only God really knows because only he really knows people's hearts. I just have faith that he is loving and merciful in equal measure with his justice.

 

[ARBITER01]

Immerese, cleanse, etc, but not all meanings at the same time. You have to be rational about it. The anointing oil was always poured liberallu over the man, and so the Holy Spirit baptism is like that ancient oil anointing that ran down over Aaron's beard---we are sent out as priests of God.

Psalm 133:2
For harmony is as precious as the anointing oil
that was poured over Aaron’s head,
that ran down his beard
and onto the border of his robe.

There is but this one meaning here over what the Greek word means Axe. If you wish to add to it, you can try, but you personally will draw the biblical meaning of the Greek out of it's context. I hope you can realize that.

Next question,

Was Jesus meaning anything other than the Greek meaning of the word baptizo when He said this,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Now you are trying to make it say what you want. You go by the letter annd not by the Spirit of the Word.

I am going to follow the OP's exhortation to cease debate.

No, one does not need to be baptized for salvation.

 

[ARBITER01]

Now you are trying to make it say what you want. You go by the letter annd not by the Spirit of the Word.

I am going to follow the OP's exhortation to cease debate.

No, one does not need to be baptized for salvation.

That's a nice accusation, but really I was the one wanting to go by the Greek definitions and remain in context by those alone. I didn't throw in personal experience like you were trying to do, nor did I include any sort of denominational teaching with this.

What really throws people off in this area is the definition for what baptized means. The word "baptism" is not a translation of the Greek word, it is a transliteration, so it does not give the reader what the Greek actually means, instead it throws the reader off and can be manipulated to mean something else.

Once people can understand that the immersion/cleansing/dipping Jesus was pointing them to in Acts was the immersion in The Holy Spirit, as the Greek specifically says, then people can begin to understand that this immersion here was for the disciples salvation.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The disciples were saved before their infilling. The cleansing was done by the blood.

 

[Optimax]

Do you get saved through baptism or by faith alone? Use verses if possible. Please no debates.

Saved by faith. Believing and doing what scripture says here.

Ro 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV


According to this scripture.

Ro 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV

Baptized afterward as a symbol of being buried with him and raised up to newness of life.

 

[MrJim]

Saved by faith. Believing and doing what scripture says here.

You're really 67? And the Axe is 56? This is a real oldtimer's gathering!

There shoulda been a poll or something...

 

[Optimax]

You're really 67? And the Axe is 56? This is a real oldtimer's gathering!

There shoulda been a poll or something...

Oldies but Goodies.