Do you get saved through baptism?

[Secundulus]

However, what I see in the bible tells me that God has chosen to use baptism as his normal means of accomplishing his work of spiritual regeneration (being born again). Thus, unless a person dies, or there is some other circumstance that prevents it, I believe you must be baptized to be a Christian and to be a part of the Church.

I agree with everything that Simon-Templar said.

What I think confuses people is in thinking of Baptism as a work. It is not a work of man, but it is a work of God.

The water is only an external symbol of cleansing. However, the real work is that which God does in erasing original sin and regenerating the soul to the state it was meant to be before the fall.

We do it because the plain reading of scripture reveals that this is what Jesus said we are to do. The Apostles taught this; the early Church understood it.

Someone will argue now against Baptizing infants before they can make a confession to Christ. If someone says that Baptism is only valid for one who is older, then baptism itself becomes the work of man.

But if Baptism is the work of God then it is equally effective on one who is only one week old as it is on one who is mature.

 

[MrJim]

Oldies but Goodies.

Well hang around here more old timer~we like to get to know our grandpa mods

 

[Secundulus]

You're really 67? And the Axe is 56? This is a real oldtimer's gathering!

There shoulda been a poll or something...

You and I are the youngsters, 43 & 49.

 

[MrJim]

You and I are the youngsters, 43 & 49.

Yeah well don't get carried away~I turn 44 on Saturday, and well, you're virtually half a century old

 

[Optimax]

Well hang around here more old timer~we like to get to know our grandpa mods

Thanks I will.

Been getting "broke into" being a mod. Kept me busy for the last few weeks.
I like this forum and intend on being more active in posting here.

 

[Secundulus]

Yeah well don't get carried away~I turn 44 on Saturday, and well, you're virtually half a century old

Not for ten more months.

But, as I am now nearly an elder, I will remind everyone that I was once as they were, and they will soon be as I am. While I know from experience that this means little, I only ask that they remember me when they write the same thing a momment from now.

A thousand years are to the lord as as one day. And each of our lifetimes are but as a moment.

 

[Optimax]

You and I are the youngsters, 43 & 49.

You youngsters be sure to enjoy the trip. The trip from where you are to where I am is extremely swift.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I agree with everything that Simon-Templar said.

What I think confuses people is in thinking of Baptism as a work. It is not a work of man, but it is a work of God.

The water is only an external symbol of cleansing. However, the real work is that which God does in erasing original sin and regenerating the soul to the state it was meant to be before the fall.

We do it because the plain reading of scripture reveals that this is what Jesus said we are to do. The Apostles taught this; the early Church understood it.

Someone will argue now against Baptizing infants before they can make a confession to Christ. If someone says that Baptism is only valid for one who is older, then baptism itself becomes the work of man.

But if Baptism is the work of God then it is equally effective on one who is only one week old as it is on one who is mature.

Hon, we are admonished to repent and be baptized. A baby or very young child doesn't know their state and cannot repent. When they have a full understanding of their sin and can repent, and DO---then they can avail themselves of water baptism. It is for the believer. Babies aren't believers.

Baptizing babies reduces it to a "work".

 

[Floatingaxe]

You're really 67? And the Axe is 56? This is a real oldtimer's gathering!

There shoulda been a poll or something...

(Actually, that made me chuckle, Chuck!)

 

[Zecryphon]

Hon, we are admonished to repent and be baptized. A baby or very young child doesn't know their state and cannot repent. When they have a full understanding of their sin and can repent, and DO---then they can avail themselves of water baptism. It is for the believer. Babies aren't believers.

Baptizing babies reduces it to a "work".

Baptizing babies does not reduce it to a work. When you teach that you must do something before being baptized, such as verbally repenting, that turns it into a work of man. Baptism is God's work in us. It is a means of grace through which God delivers all the promises of Christ to the believer. That's not just plain water in that baptismal font, that is water that has the word of God attached to it. Christ said to Baptize the nations in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Babies are a part of the nations. Remember the words of God through Peter:

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."


We see in scripture the infant John leaping for joy in his mother's womb, because Mary had drawn near to Elizabeth, with the savior in her womb.

Luk 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,
Luk 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Luk 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk 1:44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

How did the unborn John know that his savior was near? How did Elizabeth know that her savior was near and was the fruit in Mary's womb? They knew because God revealed it to them. Repentance isn't just saying some words, it's a heart condition that manifests itself because of God's work in your life. So if God can reveal those truths to both Elizabeth and John, why can't He choose to save people through Baptism?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Repenting of sin is what one does to receive salvation. Then baptyism follows--that's the word of God on the matter.

Repent and be baptized. There is no point in arguing with the Word of God on the matter.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

As each person stands before God on his own, then each person must choose salvation and baptism for oneself. You cannot do it for anyone, least of all a baby who has no inkling of their own sinfulness.

 

[Zecryphon]

Repenting of sin is what one does to receive salvation. Then baptyism follows--that's the word of God on the matter.

If you're seriously putting forth the idea that you have to do something in order to be saved, that is works-righteousness and it is heresy. Salvation is wholly God's work. There is nothing we do to receive it.

Repent and be baptized. There is no point in arguing with the Word of God on the matter.

You're not the word of God, Axe. So there is a point in discussing this matter. You're presenting your take on it and your take on it is wrong.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

As each person stands before God on his own, then each person must choose salvation and baptism for oneself.

Absolute heresy. Nobody chooses salvation. Now you're adding the decision theology heresy on top of the works righteousness heresy.

You cannot do it for anyone, least of all a baby who has no inkling of their own sinfulness.

God reveals our sinfulness to each one of us. There is no age you have to be in order to repent, since true repentance is a matter of the heart, not the lips. Do you have any age of accountability scriptures to support your assertions here?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Salvation requires you to do something--repent, have faith in Jesus Christ. It is contingent on it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

A baby has no conviction of its sinful state. Let's get real, here.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Since when is individual reckoning with God, and receiving the offer of salvation a heresy?

Planet Zecryphon is calling!

 

[Zecryphon]

A baby has no conviction of its sinful state. Let's get real, here.

Oh so I'm not being "real" because I take Jesus at His word? Please. Tell me you have something better than snide insinuations to offer here. Jesus said to baptize the nations. Babies are a part of the nations. There's not getting around it. The command to baptize applies to all people. That is what the whole of scripture attests to.

 

[Zecryphon]

Since when is individual reckoning with God, and receiving the offer of salvation a heresy?

Planet Zecryphon is calling!

Why are you getting personal here? Is your position so unsupportable with the scriptures that this is all you have left? I'm trying to have a civil discussion with you as to what scripture teaches about Baptism and you pull this crap?

Faith is a gift from God. See Epheisains 2:8-9. Baptism is commanded by Jesus to be given to the nations. Matthew 28:19-20. Peter reiterates this in Acts 2:38-39, where he says this promise is given to you and to your children. Babies are children too.

We do not reckon with God and choose to accept Christ as our savior and we do not ask Him to come into our hearts and save us. Such a position puts the work of salvation upon us and God is not fully glorified in such an apporach. Since salvation is wholly God's work, and is not something we do, per Ephesians 2:8-9, we can not reckon for it and we can not ask for it. What you're doing is mistaking our response to God's work in our lives already for an action on our part that start the salvation process, and then you are elevating this action, above the work of God Himself. You've reversed the roles between creator and creation. According to your theology it is you who must act first, then God will come in and save you. That's just wrong.

We repent because the Holy Spirit has convicted us of our sin, has revealed that the law of God is true and that God's judgment about us as complete sinners is true and because God has given us the gift of faith that allows us to know that what the Holy Spirit is telling us is true. God works in us first, then we respond in repentance because our heart has been changed. You're taking a very legalistic approach here. You're saying that unless somoene can repent with their mouths, they can not receive salvation. That is heresy and is not taught in the scriptures.

 

[Zecryphon]

Salvation requires you to do something--repent, have faith in Jesus Christ. It is contingent on it.

That is absolute heresy. Ephesians 2:8-9 totally obliterates this position. Repentance is a response to God's work in our lives. It is not the thing we must do to initiate the process of salvation.

 

[Nadiine]

thanks for explaining that better, at first I was trying to figure out
what you were trying to say.

This has always been the friction - where we keep thinking WE do
something that merits the salvation & that refutes Eph 2:8-9 which teaches that all of the salvation process is by God enabling us to respond, (due to recieving the faith as His gift first) not that the response is producing the salvation.

It's hard to explain

 

[Zecryphon]

thanks for explaining that better, at first I was trying to figure out
what you were trying to say.

This has always been the friction - where we keep thinking WE do
something that merits the salvation & that refutes Eph 2:8-9 which teaches that all of the salvation process is by God enabling us to respond, (due to recieving the faith as His gift first) not that the response is producing the salvation.

It's hard to explain

It's not hard to explain, Nadiine. You just did explain it. But this teaching is very offensive to those who hold to heresies such as works-righteousness and decision theology. And those two run rampant in the modern pop-evangelical church of this country and are taught as Biblical fact, when in fact, they are lies of the devil.