Do you get saved through baptism?

[ARBITER01]

That actually may be the case - one of my favorite teachers claims that he doesn't think they were saved yet until later in Acts.
& some of the proof he used was that they didn't understand nearly anything Jesus was saying.
Even the parables, Jesus had to explain it all to them.
If you remember, the parables were veiled truth - the problem is, it was still veiled to them & they were Jesus' own.

I think the veil might have been lifted for them later on. Just speculation, we can't honestly know & that's why I don't think it's needs harsh debate.
Nobody can prove either side of that one, different scriptures can lend support to each side.

You make a good point on this also, and your right, it should not have a lot of debate on it.

The point of bringing it up in this thread was really to show that water was not the source towards receiving anything from GOD in the way of salvation. John the baptist pointed folks towards Jesus and His immersion into The Holy Spirit as the true immersion of repentance, that John's was only water as symbolic of the true spiritual one to be from Jesus.

We got into a little debate about when that immersion "into" the forgiveness of our sins was able to happen from Jesus, but the real point here was the difference between the symbolic and the spiritual presented in the scriptures.

 

[Zecryphon]

Sorry Axe, but read the scriptures on it,..



When did Jesus receive the promise of The Holy Spirit to pour out unto people? Only when He was raised up to be seated next to The Father, then He poured out The Holy Spirit to folks.

That means there was no new rebirth from Jesus until this point here in scripture because salvation is certainly not apart from receiving The Holy Spirit within. Absolutely no one has received salvation without receiving The Holy Spirit inside as the seal of their redemption, no one.

If Jesus was not granted The Holy Spirit at that point to hand out to anyone yet, and by scripture He wasn't, then we cannot create a contradictory statement for ourselves by saying that He did hand it out to folks before that point.

Just a quick question. Why did Jesus say in John 19:30 'It is finished", if there was something else that needed to happen for people to be saved? It seems like you're attributing salvation to the Holy Spirit when scripture reveals the Holy Spirit to be a teacher and a guide.

 

[ARBITER01]

Just a quick question. Why did Jesus say in John 19:30 'It is finished", if there was something else that needed to happen for people to be saved? It seems like you're attributing salvation to the Holy Spirit when scripture reveals the Holy Spirit to be a teacher and a guide.

How is The Holy Spirit our teacher and guide? Is He speaking from the outside to us or from the inside of us?

I submit it is from the inside of us as He bears witness to our spirit. When did we receive Him inside of us then? I submit it is at our salvation. That's one of the purposes of us being saved, that we are cleansed by His blood through the agency of The Holy Spirit and that we have Him within us to teach and lead us into obedience unto our Lord.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry Axe, but read the scriptures on it,..



When did Jesus receive the promise of The Holy Spirit to pour out unto people? Only when He was raised up to be seated next to The Father, then He poured out The Holy Spirit to folks.

That means there was no new rebirth from Jesus until this point here in scripture because salvation is certainly not apart from receiving The Holy Spirit within. Absolutely no one has received salvation without receiving The Holy Spirit inside as the seal of their redemption, no one.

If Jesus was not granted The Holy Spirit at that point to hand out to anyone yet, and by scripture He wasn't, then we cannot create a contradictory statement for ourselves by saying that He did hand it out to folks before that point.

Jesus was NEVER without the Holy Spirit, but He did receive His anointiong for ministry upon His step into water baptism.

His was the pleasure and authority to anoint anyone He so wished with Holy Spirit power.


Those disciples received their salvation before Him as He breathed Holy Spirit life into them---BEFORE their baptism in the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus was NEVER without the Holy Spirit, but He did receive His anointiong for ministry upon His step into water baptism.

His was the pleasure and authority to anoint anyone He so wished with Holy Spirit power.

Of course He had The Holy Spirit from The Father, but He was the only one that did at that time aside from John The Baptist, which received Him from GOD in the womb.

Just because Jesus had The Holy Spirit within Him, does not automatically mean that He was handing Him out to folks around Him while He was here. The Holy Spirit came from GOD, and until Jesus was seated to the right of GOD upon the throne of David, was He able to pour out The Holy Spirit to those who believed in Him. It did not happen before that.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Of course He had The Holy Spirit from The Father, but He was the only one that did at that time aside from John The Baptist, which received Him from GOD in the womb.

Just because Jesus had The Holy Spirit within Him, does not automatically mean that He was handing Him out to folks around Him while He was here. The Holy Spirit came from GOD, and until Jesus was seated to the right of GOD upon the throne of David, was He able to pour out The Holy Spirit to those who believed in Him. It did not happen before that.

Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon those who would become His apostles and do His works among the people--preaching with power, healing and casting out demons, etc.

At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came in all His fullness and is available to move into every believer worldwide---Jesus' presence everywhere!

 

[ARBITER01]

Those disciples received their salvation before Him as He breathed Holy Spirit life into them---BEFORE their baptism in the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

You are not paying attention to what Jesus said here,..

Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

We all require our spirits to be cleansed and washed by Jesus, well this did not happen until The Holy Spirit was given or else then Jesus had the apostles waiting around for The Holy Spirit when they had Him inside already.

You're doing the same thing here that DD was trying to do, separating the gift from The Holy Spirit from our salvation somehow, and that is not what Peter said,..

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be immersed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ into the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is gift singular in the greek, not plural here. We receive The Holy Spirit at our salvation as the seal of our redemption. We can be filled to overflow later on or we can be filled and have the gifts operating at that point of our salvation, either way is up to GOD, but we do receive The Holy Spirit inside at our salvation, not some point later on.

No one is walking around truly born again without The Holy Spirit inside of them. Period.

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon those who would become His apostles and do His works among the people--preaching with power, healing and casting out demons, etc.

At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came in all His fullness and is available to move into every believer worldwide---Jesus' presence everywhere!

I'm sorry axe, but the scriptures are clear about this,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Jesus did not receive the promise of The Holy Spirit to hand out to folks before He was seated next to The Father. Jesus only poured out The Holy Spirit when He had received Him to do so, not before that.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'm sorry axe, but the scriptures are clear about this,..

I am seeing a misinterpretation...

Acts 2:33
Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.


Well, not BEFORE He was seated. He always had the Holy Spirit, but once Jesus was in position beside the Father, God gave Him the supreme authority to SEND HIM, POUR HIM OUT upon all believers--just as Jesus said He would do.

 

[Zecryphon]

How is The Holy Spirit our teacher and guide? Is He speaking from the outside to us or from the inside of us?

I submit it is from the inside of us as He bears witness to our spirit. When did we receive Him inside of us then? I submit it is at our salvation. That's one of the purposes of us being saved, that we are cleansed by His blood through the agency of The Holy Spirit and that we have Him within us to teach and lead us into obedience unto our Lord.

You're avoiding the question I've asked you. Why did Jesus say 'It is finished', if it wasn't?

 

[ARBITER01]

You're avoiding the question I've asked you. Why did Jesus say 'It is finished', if it wasn't?

I'm certainly not avoiding anything, your question is just not relevant to the subject of The Holy Spirit being poured out to everyone.

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, not BEFORE He was seated. He always had the Holy Spirit, but once Jesus was in position beside the Father, God gave Him the supreme authority to SEND HIM, POUR HIM OUT upon all believers--just as Jesus said He would do.

Exactly right.

That understanding right there is where many doctrinal problems exist in the body of Christ, either by mistake or purposely at times to assert a doctrinal stance.

It creates a contradiction for us in scripture when we say that the apostles had received The Holy Spirit back in John 20:22 when Jesus had not sat down at the right hand of The Father to receive The Holy Spirit from Him to do so.

The only scriptural position to take for us in relation to John 20:22 would be that Jesus was directing them to wait and receive The Holy Spirit, which happened at Pentecost.

 

[Zecryphon]

I'm certainly not avoiding anything, your question is just not relevant to the subject of The Holy Spirit being poured out to everyone.

In post # 47 of this thread you said the following to DeaconDean: 'The events documented over in acts depict the disciples salvation and receiving of The Holy Spirit together when they were all in the upper room waiting, not prior to that.' My question is relevant to your statement about the disciples salvation, since you assert above that they were not saved until Pentecost. If that's true, then why did Jesus say 'It is finished', if there was still more that had to be done? If you don't know why, just say so. There's no shame in not knowing the answer to a question.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Exactly right.

That understanding right there is where many doctrinal problems exist in the body of Christ, either by mistake or purposely at times to assert a doctrinal stance.

It creates a contradiction for us in scripture when we say that the apostles had received The Holy Spirit back in John 20:22 when Jesus had not sat down at the right hand of The Father to receive The Holy Spirit from Him to do so.

The only scriptural position to take for us in relation to John 20:22 would be that Jesus was directing them to wait and receive The Holy Spirit, which happened at Pentecost.

Jesus had authority to impart the Holy Spirit on His disciples. He is God---remember? The formal bestowal of authority to SEND THE COMFORTER was given at one particular time for the wonderful advent of the Holy Spirit into the WORLD at Pentecost, where He came and has never left.

No--Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit upon His own followers, to empower them to do what He did--He appeared to His dear ones first, saved them and sent them. Of course He would!


John 20:19-23
That Sunday evening the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,” he said. As he spoke, he showed them the wounds in his hands and his side. They were filled with joy when they saw the Lord! Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[Angel4Truth]

Do you get saved through baptism or by faith alone? Use verses if possible. Please no debates.

Romans 10:9 and 10 is how you get saved and it doesnt need water. Should someone get water baptised? Yes because that is identification with Christ through death burial and resurrection and confessing Him before men.

 

[ARBITER01]

In post # 47 of this thread you said the following to DeaconDean: 'The events documented over in acts depict the disciples salvation and receiving of The Holy Spirit together when they were all in the upper room waiting, not prior to that.' My question is relevant to your statement about the disciples salvation, since you assert above that they were not saved until Pentecost. If that's true, then why did Jesus say 'It is finished', if there was still more that had to be done? If you don't know why, just say so. There's no shame in not knowing the answer to a question.

I'm sorry, but Jesus saying "it is finished" on the cross did not also mean "it is started."

You are allowed to assume that on your part, and assumption it would be, but,.... you will run up against this scripture here when you say it as fact,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

That right there means that The Holy Spirit was not poured out to anyone before that.

Sorry if that steps on any doctrinal stance you may have had over this issue, but it is very specific to the point here, undeniable even.

Jesus did not receive The Holy Spirit to pour out from The Father until He was exalted by HIM to HIS side, and since He had not received Him yet to do so,... no one received Him prior to that.

It is called biblical reasoning here. We can't make Jesus out to be doing something He was not given to do yet.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus has NEVER been without the Holy Spirit.

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus had authority to impart the Holy Spirit on His disciples. He is God---remember? The formal bestowal of authority to SEND THE COMFORTER was given at one particular time for the wonderful advent of the Holy Spirit into the WORLD at Pentecost, where He came and has never left.

No--Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit upon His own followers, to empower them to do what He did--He appeared to His dear ones first, saved them and sent them. Of course He would!


John 20:19-23
That Sunday evening the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,” he said. As he spoke, he showed them the wounds in his hands and his side. They were filled with joy when they saw the Lord! Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

I'm sorry Axe, but you are creating your own contradiction.

Do you understand what I'm saying here, or are you just running on personal beliefs over this issue?

Pay attention to scripture here,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

You are trying to say that The Holy Spirit was able to be given from Jesus to His followers prior to The Father giving Him to Jesus to do so.

Bzzzzzzzzt. Wrong answer. That is a created contradiction on your part here that does not align with scripture.

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus has NEVER been without the Holy Spirit.

That is correct but,..

Jesus was not granted the ability to pour Him out to those that were to be saved until The Father granted it to Jesus to do so, and that did not come until He was raised up and seated next to The Father.

Scripture is clear on this.

 

[JustAsIam77]

To the OP... no you do not get saved through baptism.