Do you get saved through baptism?

[Zecryphon]

I'm sorry, but Jesus saying "it is finished" on the cross did not also mean "it is started.

I'm not saying that. I'm asking why Jesus said what He did if there was more to be done. You're still avoiding my question.

You are allowed to assume that on your part, and assumption it would be, but,.... you will run up against this scripture here when you say it as fact,..That right there means that The Holy Spirit was not poured out to anyone before that.

I haven't assumed anything and I haven't stated anything as fact. I have simply asked you a question that you either can not or will not answer.

Sorry if that steps on any doctrinal stance you may have had over this issue, but it is very specific to the point here, undeniable even.

Don't patronize me. You're not actually sorry. What you are doing however is attributing our salvation to the Holy Spirit. Jesus' work on the cross is why we are saved, not because of the Holy Spirit being sent at Pentecost.

Jesus did not receive The Holy Spirit to pour out from The Father until He was exalted by HIM to HIS side, and since He had not received Him yet to do so,... no one received Him prior to that.

And that has what to do with salvation? Lemme help you out here: NOTHING.

It is called biblical reasoning here. We can't make Jesus out to be doing something He was not given to do yet.

Actually, attributing salvation to anyone other than Jesus is apostasy.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm not saying that. I'm asking why Jesus said what He did if there was more to be done. You're still avoiding my question.
I haven't assumed anything and I haven't stated anything as fact. I have simply asked you a question that you either can not or will not answer.
Don't patronize me. You're not actually sorry. What you are doing however is attributing our salvation to the Holy Spirit. Jesus' work on the cross is why we are saved, not because of the Holy Spirit being sent at Pentecost.
And that has what to do with salvation? Lemme help you out here: NOTHING.
Actually, attributing salvation to anyone other than Jesus is apostasy.

You seem upset for some reason, that would be your problem.

You also seem to be trying to assert that our salvation is somehow not associated with The Holy Spirit's activities to us, that is a very wrong view my friend,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

Immersed is a correct translation of the Greek word used here. Water was symbolic of The Holy Spirit's actions upon us, as used by John The Baptist, but he himself pointed us to Jesus and His baptism by The Holy Spirit as the true "immersion" of repentance.

There is no other way to receive our salvation outside of the agency of The Holy Spirit's actions upon us after we come to Jesus. We are sealed unto the day of our redemption, and that seal is The Holy Spirit within us bearing witness to our spirit when we cry Abba, Father.

Maybe you should try to understand these things in scripture?

 

[Floatingaxe]

That is correct but,..

Jesus was not granted the ability to pour Him out to those that were to be saved until The Father granted it to Jesus to do so, and that did not come until He was raised up and seated next to The Father.

Scripture is clear on this.

He was free to gift His followers with Salvation. They believed in Him, dead yrt alive--His very first converts. Of course he would give them His Spirit! But that was NOT the outpouring!

 

[ARBITER01]

He was free to gift His followers with Salvation.

No Jesus wasn't.

Until Jesus was seated at the right hand of The Father, and The Father gave Him the promise of The Holy Spirit to pour out, The Holy Spirit was not given to anyone. Scripture is clear on that.

They believed in Him, dead yrt alive--His very first converts. Of course he would give them His Spirit! But that was NOT the outpouring!

You are trying to make two separate events here that do nothing but create a contradiction in scripture.

Jesus was obedient unto The Father, and was unable to pour out The Holy Spirit for salvation until The Father granted it to Him to do so.

The key word here from Jesus is "immersed" in the Greek,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

Being immersed "in" The Holy Spirit, being immersed "into" the forgiveness of our sins.

It was the same immersion that Peter is talking about here,..

38 And Peter, he said unto them: “Repent ye, and be immersed each of thee, upon the name of Jesus Christ, into the forgiveness of thy sins, and ye shall receive the gift of The Holy Spirit,

This is salvation that Peter is talking about here, the true immersion of repentance from Jesus.

If they had been immersed into The Holy Spirit and had the blood of Jesus applied through the agency of The Holy Spirit back in John 20:22 already, then Jesus would not have needed them to wait to have it happen again unto them.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Look--Jesus gave of the spirit from within Him--He breathed it to them. He was fully capable and had the authority to do so...just as He had authority to do whatever he wished at any time.

Arb, you are being far too literal and stringent.

it is one thing to have a measure of the Spirit in salvation, but the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in all liberality at the Pentecost is something else entirely. Jesus was demonstrating the two very well--have you missed it?

John 20:19-23

Jesus Appears to His Disciples

That Sunday evening the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,” he said. As he spoke, he showed them the wounds in his hands and his side. They were filled with joy when they saw the Lord! Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[Rhamiel]

God chose Baptism to be the normal way in which He brings people into His friendship
John 3:5 KJV

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Angel4Truth]

God chose Baptism to be the normal way in which He brings people into His friendship
John 3:5 KJV

That verse deals with both physical and spiritual birth. The context is clear because the pharisee had asked how a man could re-enter his mothers womb to be born again - there is only one second birth and thats spiritual.

 

[ARBITER01]

Look--Jesus gave of the spirit from within Him--He breathed it to them. He was fully capable and had the authority to do so...just as He had authority to do whatever he wished at any time.

Arb, you are being far too literal and stringent.

it is one thing to have a measure of the Spirit in salvation, but the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in all liberality at the Pentecost is something else entirely. Jesus was demonstrating the two very well--have you missed it?

Sorry Axe, the key word here is immersed in the Greek.

John the baptist had an "immersion" in water for repentance, but pointed to Jesus as the one who would immerse us in The Holy Spirit.

Did this happen in John 20:22? No it didn't because Jesus said this to the apostles,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

If they had this immersion of repentance already, then they would not have needed to wait for it to happen again, they would have been saved already, yet we see here that they did had to wait for it from Jesus during Pentecost.

 

[ARBITER01]

That verse deals with both physical and spiritual birth. The context is clear because the pharisee had asked how a man could re-enter his mothers womb to be born again - there is only one second birth and thats spiritual.

Yep, exactly true.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry Axe, the key word here is immersed in the Greek.

John the baptist had an "immersion" in water for repentance, but pointed to Jesus as the one who would immerse us in The Holy Spirit.

Did this happen in John 20:22? No it didn't because Jesus said this to the apostles,..

If they had this immersion of repentance already, then they would not have needed to wait for it to happen again, they would have been saved already, yet we see here that they did had to wait for it from Jesus during Pentecost.

You still don't get it. The disciples received their full salvation from Jesus, then they experienced the immersion of the Holy Spirit Baptism at Pentecost.

Water baptism didn't save them from anything.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Cornelius and many others are shown having received the Holy Spirit and said to be saved yet it was before being water baptised which is evident that Spiritual Birth isnt a result of water baptism but being immersed in the Spirit of God.

Acts 10:44. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

 

[ARBITER01]

You still don't get it. The disciples received their full salvation from Jesus, then they experienced the immersion of the Holy Spirit Baptism at Pentecost.

Water baptism didn't save them from anything.

I'm sorry, but you are not trying to understand what the scriptures are saying here Axe.

The Greek word means dipping, cleansing, washing, and that is what Jesus points them to when He says this,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed with water; but ye shall be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

If the Apostles had already received their cleansing from Jesus back in John 20:22, He would not have told them to go through it again.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'm sorry, but you are not trying to understand what the scriptures are saying here Axe.

The Greek word means dipping, cleansing, washing, and that is what Jesus points them to when He says this,..



If the Apostles had already received their cleansing from Jesus back in John 20:22, He would not have told them to go through it again.

They didn't have to go through anything again.

Everyone who follows Jesus into salvation, and then water baptism (as a sign) will hopefully undergo a Holy Spirit baptism later. The Holy Spirit baptism doesn't cleanse. It empowers and anoints.

 

[ARBITER01]

They didn't have to go through anything again.

Everyone who follows Jesus into salvation, and then water baptism (as a sign) will hopefully undergo a Holy Spirit baptism later. The Holy Spirit baptism doesn't cleanse. It empowers and anoints.

Sorry Axe, but the Greek word specifically means this,..

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G911
Citing in TDNT: 1:529, 92

Jesus is pointing them to a cleansing and a washing according to the Greek. The use of a transliterated word such as "baptized" does not communicate the true meaning here of what the Greek says.

Jesus is very specific here, a cleansing and an immersion in The Holy Spirit.

Sorry, but they would not need this if it happened already back in John 20:22.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Baptism in the Spirit happens at salvation.

About the apostles they were later baptised in the Spirit because they had not been previously before the Spirit was given: 4. Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15. who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 11:13 3. "And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, `Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,
14. `who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
15. "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
16. "Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, `John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

1 corinthians 1: 17. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.''

1 Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry Axe, but the Greek word specifically means this,..



Jesus is pointing them to a cleansing and a washing according to the Greek. The use of a transliterated word such as "baptized" does not communicate the true meaning here of what the Greek says.

Jesus is very specific here, a cleansing and an immersion in The Holy Spirit.

Sorry, but they would not need this if it happened already back in John 20:22.

He BREATHED on them His Holy Spirit presence. He didn't baptize them.

They still needed the full immersion of the Holy Spirit's power at Pentecost like everyone else who believed.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Ephesians 1:13. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

 

[ARBITER01]

Baptism in the Spirit happens at salvation.

About the apostles they were later baptised in the Spirit because they had not been previously before the Spirit was given: 4. Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15. who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 11:13 3. "And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, `Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,
14. `who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
15. "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
16. "Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, `John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

1 corinthians 1: 17. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.''

1 Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Very correct!

Immersion "into" the forgiveness of our sins is the spiritual renewal of our spirits by the blood of Jesus applied through the agency of The Holy Spirit. This is a tangible, experienced event for the believer.

That is salvation and our immersion into the body of Christ.

 

[ARBITER01]

He BREATHED on them His Holy Spirit presence. He didn't baptize them.

They still needed the full immersion of the Holy Spirit's power at Pentecost like everyone else who believed.

Again Axe, the Greek word used by Jesus is specific towards cleansing and full immersion into The Holy Spirit.

This event would not be needed if it happened already back in John 20:22. They experienced salvation in Acts 2 accompanied by the gifts.

 

[ARBITER01]

Ephesians 1:13. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

Exactly! We receive The Holy Spirit at our salvation.

If the apostles had been cleansed and received The Holy Spirit inside already in John 20:22, they would not need to be cleansed again over in acts 2.