Do you believe in predestination ?

disciple Clint said:

While God can accomplish His desires, His love for me causes Him to respect my free will decisions. I think we disagree but that's ok.

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I accept that HIS DESIRE WAS FOR HIS CREATION TO CHOOSE BY A FREE WILL and for a will to be free, our choices must be sacrosanct, inviolable, because if HE can change them willy nilly by force, how can we be said to be free?

TedT said:

I must differ:
GOD will marry HIS creation in the heavenly marriage and no marriage can be forced on the bride but the proposal of marriage must be freely accepted, uncoerced by anything, for the marriage to be real, whether the bride realizes the coercion or not.

Nor can true love be forced upon the bride but must grow in a free will environment.

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Who made that **** rule?

GOD is not a Borg to accept a Stepford wife... A free will is an absolute necessity for the heavenly marriage to be a real, loving, marriage.

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disciple Clint said:

God knows everything, He is unlimited, one of His fundamental characteristic is omniscience. 138 Bible verses about God, All Knowing

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This philosophical definition of omniscience would seem to contradict the scripture verses which claim HE does not want anyone to die in hell (Ezekiel 33:11, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) but some do die implying that IF HE KNEW before their creation who would end in hell, all HE had to do to fulfill HIS desire to keep hell empty was to NOT CREATE THEM!

Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?

martymonster said:

Did not God harden Pharaoh's heart and then judge him for his actions?

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ImCo I must correct the interpretation that implies Pharaoh was in truth letting Moses go as if he and Moses were good buddies and he was struggling against that evil YHWH to do the right thing.

Pharaoh hated Moses and the Israelites and the only reason he considered letting them go was because over and over it is said he feared YHWH for HIS power!

All YHWH had to do to 'harden his heart' was to let him get over his fear and feel strong again, able to do as he desired which was to destroy the Israelites, NOT to force him to go against his desire to let them go!! My goodness...

Clare73 said:

Actually, this definition sets the limits of free will to the choice of what one prefers.
Unregenerate man does not prefer submission to God and, therefore, does not voluntarily choose it.

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What I mean is the a believer cannot choose what gifts and calling to have - these are decided by the Spirit.

Nor can a man choose to be a woman...

Many issues in life are settled and we have no choice in the matter.

Carl Emerson said:

What I mean is the a believer cannot choose what gifts and calling to have - these are decided by the Spirit.

Nor can a man choose to be a woman...

Many issues in life are settled and we have no choice in the matter.

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I was referring only to moral choices, to a moral free will, which was Pelagius' assertion.

TedT replied [post #84], "This philosophical definition of omniscience would seem to contradict the scripture verses which claim HE does not want anyone to die in hell (Ezekiel 33:11, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) but some do die implying that IF HE KNEW before their creation who would end in hell, Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?"

Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?"

My Reply :

You stated, "Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?""

It appears to me that there are many reasons to believe that God knowingly created some who would end in hell. However, the core question here is , "who should be held accountable for those who end up in hell?... God or man? ... I hope and pray that you would put that blameworthiness on man rather than God. The claim that God cannot be loving and yet be just in casting any person into hell is perhaps the leading argument that the atheists appeal to for rejecting the God of the Christian faith. [I'm not saying that you are making that assertion].

Of course there is another avenue that some take which would seemingly eliminate this "dilemma."[i.e. a loving God sending His creation to hell] ... that being the embracing of universalism [i.e. - all of God's creation will at some point in the future be reconciled to Him with none spending an eternity in hell]. However, the scriptural evidence presented for this view [in my opinion] is very weak in comparison to the other leading perspectives on the nature of hell.

From my perspective, God has decided to actualize a world in which the optimal number of people would freely receive His free gift of eternal life. God will never force or override a person's decision in the matter of salvation. The decision on God's part to grant this choice to His creation in no way diminishes His sovereignty; rather, God has sovereignly decreed it so. In the end, although God desires everyone to be saved, if a persons fails to respond to the pleadings and drawing of the Holy Spirit during their lifetime, they have no one to blame but themselves for their tragic fate.

The idea that God would overpower people’s free will in this matter is out of the question, for love that is coerced is not love at all, and God does not treat us as mere puppets. So God cannot be faulted for not creating a world with a better balance of saved and lost; such a world was not feasible for Him. From my perspective, there is no feasible world of free creatures having a more optimal balance between saved and lost than this one.

Clare73 said:

I was referring only to moral choices, to a moral free will, which was Pelagius' assertion.

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Is changing gender not a moral choice.

Carl Emerson said:

Is changing gender not a moral choice.

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I was viewing it as akin to changing your race, your eye color or the size of your feet.

Clare73 said:

I was viewing it as akin to changing your race, your eye color or the size of your feet.

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No problem - we agree that absolute free will is a myth anyway it seems.

Do you think moral freewill incudes our salvation status?

myst33 said:

Even Pelagius would be aghast knowing what some today's Christians think about the boundaries of God and about self-centered views of personal freedom.

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He wouldn't have time for that he is busy saving himself.

Clare73 said:

The subject here is the meaning in Scripture of God's foreknowledge, not of God's omniscience.

And in Scripture, God's foreknowledge is of what he is going to do, because he has already declared that he shall do it, not of what man is going to do.

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is not about God basing his decisions on what man is going to do, it's about God knowing what he has declared to do and, therefore, shall do.

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I would say that it is based on what God wants in that He knows everything that has or ever will happen.

TedT said:

I accept that HIS DESIRE WAS FOR HIS CREATION TO CHOOSE BY A FREE WILL and for a will to be free, our choices must be sacrosanct, inviolable, because if HE can change them willy nilly by force, how can we be said to be free?

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God does not change our decisions.

TedT said:

This philosophical definition of omniscience would seem to contradict the scripture verses which claim HE does not want anyone to die in hell (Ezekiel 33:11, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) but some do die implying that IF HE KNEW before their creation who would end in hell, all HE had to do to fulfill HIS desire to keep hell empty was to NOT CREATE THEM!

Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?

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And there by eliminate all free will and reduce man to a robot, do as I want or you will not exist. Love is not love if it is forced or if it is the only possibility. God wants true love from people who love because that is what they want to do.

disciple Clint said:

I would say that it is based on what God wants in that He knows everything that has or ever will happen.

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"Foreknowledge" is not about what it is based on, it's about knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

Clare73 said:

"Foreknowledge" is about knowing in advance.

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Clare I am losing track of your argument, God is outside of time everything happens without relationship to what we call time, as an example we see a parade one unit at a time as it pass by us, God sees the whole parade without relationship to time. Therefore God knows everything, past, present, and future.

Carl Emerson said:

No problem - we agree that absolute free will is a myth anyway it seems.

Do you think moral freewill incudes our salvation status?

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Our salvation status is faith, and faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1, Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3), so apart from the rebirth (power of the Holy Spirit), we are spiritually powerless to choose or do anything regarding salvation by faith.

disciple Clint said:

Clare I am losing track of your argument, God is outside of time everything happens without relationship to what we call time, as an example we see a parade one unit at a time as it pass by us, God sees the whole parade without relationship to time. Therefore God knows everything, past, present, and future.

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This is about the meaning of God's "foreknowledge" as used in Scripture. . .the Scriptural meaning is forekowledge about his own actions, not about man's actions (Acts 2:23, Acts 4:28; Isaiah 37:26; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:17), nor about man's actions governing his response in salvation.

"Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work." (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold (foreknowledge) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted (his own actions), and they came to pass (accomplished what he predestined)." (Isaiah 48:3)

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen by his own action.

TedT said:

ImCo I must correct the interpretation that implies Pharaoh was in truth letting Moses go as if he and Moses were good buddies and he was struggling against that evil YHWH to do the right thing.

Pharaoh hated Moses and the Israelites and the only reason he considered letting them go was because over and over it is said he feared YHWH for HIS power!

All YHWH had to do to 'harden his heart' was to let him get over his fear and feel strong again, able to do as he desired which was to destroy the Israelites, NOT to force him to go against his desire to let them go!! My goodness...

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There is no reason to try a get God off the hook. God freely admits what he is responsible for. We just have to take him at his word.


Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

BTW, meant is not the same as "allowed" I know how people try to twist this verse, but God doesn't "allow" anything, he is working all things after the counsel of his own will.

disciple Clint said:

God does not change our decisions.

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*Saul changed to the apostle Paul entered the chat*