Do you believe in predestination ?

[Clare73]

Where exactly, enlighten me?

11:28-32.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This bald assertion of yours is met by my bald assertion that our free will is an absolute necessity for 1. our being judged as guilty and punished for sin and 2. the reality of true love and 3. the reality of the heavenly marriage.

It is a matter of defining what you mean by 'free will'

Because you cant decide to be an elephant, there is a limit to your choices, therefore so called free will is within bounds that God has set.

 

[TedT]

When we first trusted in Jesus' atoning work on our behalf, and asked Him for the forgiveness of all of our sins at our new birth experience.

Gee, all this we performed against our enslavement to the addictive power of evil which we were (not had) and we were able to accomplish bringing about our new birth...wow.

 

[rturner76]

11:28-32.

It didn't seem to say anything about God killing people to prevent them from future sin. Try again?

 

[Rapture Bound]

TedT [post #123] replied, "Gee, all this we performed against our enslavement to the addictive power of evil which we were (not had) and we were able to accomplish bringing about our new birth...wow."

My Reply :

The Holy Spirit does the work of regeneration [i.e. - "works the miracle", that is, creates and forms the new creature in Christ in the unregenerate at the point of their new birth]; but this regeneration will not take place until and unless a person trusts [by the Holy Spirit's enabling, drawing and convicting power] in Christ's atoning work and asks for forgiveness through and by His shed blood.

Otherwise, we are left with God randomly picking and choosing who goes to Heaven or hell apart from man's participation whatsoever ... just as the consistent 5-point Calvinist claims [the operative word here being "consistent]. Fortunately, most Calvinists do not hold to all of the 5 points of Calvin's T.U.L.I.P., or do not define them as John Calvin did.

 

[TedT]

It is a matter of defining what you mean by 'free will'

All FREE means is result of the choice they face is the product of their own desires, their own definition of what they want most, uncoerced and not constrained by anyone else.

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion nor constraints upon choosing what it was they most wanted and going for it, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, ie, the truth of the choice, as they define the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted

 

[Clare73]

It didn't seem to say anything about God killing people to prevent them from future sin. Try again?

Why did some get sick and die?

 

[rturner76]

Why did some get sick and die?

28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 11 28-32

I don't see anything about people getting sick and dying. It's more talking about people without understanding taking communion. Nothing about GOd murdering future sinners

 

[Carl Emerson]

All FREE means is result of the choice they face is the product of their own desires, their own definition of what they want most, uncoerced and not constrained by anyone else.

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion nor constraints upon choosing what it was they most wanted and going for it, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, ie, the truth of the choice, as they define the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted

So when the Holy Spirit 'constrains us' what then ?

 

[atpollard]

How do you understand Rom 9 to say this?

MY understanding is irrelevant. You are not my ‘servant’, so it is for you to read and the Holy Spirit to lead your heart. I merely pointed out where an Apostle discussed the topic of “God being fair” so you could get an answer from someone more qualified than me.

I agree with Corrie Ten Boon that “God does as He pleases, and He does it right well.”

 

[atpollard]

otherwise, why wouldn't He simply cause every person who was ever born to make such a choice [whether they desire it or not]?

[Rom 9:8, 11, 15-18, 21-24 NASB20]

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. ...

• man did not make a promise to God, God made a promise to men.

11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, ...

• why? … God’s purpose … God’s choice … would stand.
• Not why … because of us.

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION."

• It is a RIGHT of God as God … God was revealing His TRUE SELF to Moses when God proclaimed these words.

16 So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.

• Again, NOT because of us (our choice or invitation), but DEPENDING on God to have mercy (on whom He chooses to have mercy).

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH."

• Even those whom God destroys, existed for God’s glory … they demonstrate His power and Justice as we demonstrate His grace and mercy.

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. ...

• repeated again in case you missed it … GOD’S DESIRE is the only opinion that matters.

21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?

• God tells you why He does not compel all to salvation.

23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [namely] us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

• God tells you why He does compel some (and it is not about US and what we did).

 

[atpollard]

...but HE is not sovereign over HIMself, ie, HIS sovereignty is a product of HIS nature so it cannot trump HIS nature as loving, righteous and just.

Every expression of HIS sovereignty must be loving, righteous and just. HE cannot do anything hurtful to the innocent or impatient to the guilty, or out of character and call it righteous just because HE is sovereign...an attitude I see a lot.

1. As I understand it, only Jesus was innocent and look what happened to Him. God not only ALLOWED it, God planned and desired it.
2. What is “righteous and just” towards man? What do we deserve as a consequence of our thoughts and actions?
   

A RIGHTEOUS God should have destroyed Adam and Eve THAT DAY just as He said. A JUST God should damn all of us and spare Christ. It is a MERCIFUL God that extends the gift of grace (UNMERITED FORGIVENESS) to anyone at all, and it is a Sovereign God that WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER [HE WILL] HAVE MERCY, AND WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER [HE WILL] SHOW COMPASSION.

 

[Clare73]

29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 11 29-32

I don't see anything about people getting sick and dying. It's more talking about people without understanding taking communion. Nothing about GOd murdering future sinners

Not future sinners, but present sinning believers, whom God judges so that they will not be finally condemned with the world.

"Murder" is your word.

 

[rturner76]

Not future sinners, present sinning believers, continuing the sin in the future.

"Murder" is your word.

It doesn't talk about anything but the natural consequences of a sinful lifestyle. It doesn't say anything about God killing people. It's about coming to communion while in sin.

Take another read, it says nothing about God killing people.

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't talk about anything but the natural consequences of a sinful lifestyle. It doesn't say anything about God killing people. It's about coming to communion while in sin.

Take another read, it says nothing about God killing people.

< sigh >

They "eat and drink God's judgment on themselves." (1 Corinthians 11:29)

The "judgment" is sickness and death (falling asleep) (1 Corinthians 11:30)
so that they will not be finally condemned with the world (1 Corinthians 11:32).

 

[rturner76]

< sigh >

They "eat and drink God's judgment on themselves."

The "judgment" is sickness and death (falling asleep).

Yes "on themselves" by living a sinful lifestyle. God didn't murder them. They hurt themselves with their sinful ways.

Read the Bible not Calvin. The Bible says it plain. Sin and pay for it. You seem confused about what the Bible is saying. Read it without the influence of Calvin and you will get a better understanding of the text.

 

[Clare73]

Yes "on themselves" by living a sinful lifestyle. God didn't murder them. They hurt themselves with their sinful ways.

"Murder" is your misnomer. . .God judged them with sickness and death so that they will not be finally condemned with the world.

Read the Bible not Calvin. The Bible says it plain. Sin and pay for it. You seem confused about what the Bible is saying. Read it without the influence of Calvin and you will get a better understanding of the text.

How did Calvin get into this?

Don't blame 1 Corinthians 11:28-32 on Calvin. He didn't write it.

 

[disciple Clint]

Then why did HE create those HE knew would end in hell without HIS grace, without contradicting HIS nature as loving, righteous and just nor HIS desire that no one dies???

because if He only allowed people who love Him to be produced it would be just like the people were robots God wants people who love Him because they want to love Him not because that is the only possibility.

 

[disciple Clint]

I wrote:
Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?


EXACTLY!! The exact response I was looking for! I think most of us agree unless your ideology demands you reject it. HIS sovereignty is a product of HIS nature so it cannot trump HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just which demands our free will as an absolute necessity to be
- guilty of sin
- able to truly love
- able to enter a true marriage with HIM.


HE changes our sinful decisions all the time (unless you have never been held back by conscience from a sin) but, imCo, our free will decisions, as opposed to our sinful decisions, are sacrosanct, inviolable and never changed hence, in part, the unforgivable sin.

We change our decisions, that is what free will is all about.

 

[disciple Clint]

A common argument but please consider:
the bible itself tells us what is covered by what HE knows: Acts 15:18 Known unto GOD are all HIS works from the beginning of the world. All HIS works are HIS decrees of creation. From the beginning of the world does NOT extend into the eternal past...but why let a little thing like scripture interfere with our understanding?

IF HE created us with a free will but did NOT create the results of our free will decisions, HE would then not know those results because they are NOT HIS works, HE did not create them, we did!. HE would not know who would choose to commit the unforgivable sin and so end in hell so HE could not forestall their damnation by just not creating them.

It is an indictment of orthodoxy that they chose to accept this pagan Greek wisdom definition of HIS omniscience because of their idolatry of all things Greek.

These two ideologies I call blasphemy as contrary to HIS self revealed attributes as loving, righteous and just:
1. that HE would create those HE knew would end in hell.
1. That HE created mankind as sinful in Adam, liable to judgment, suffering and hell and not as innocent, guilty of their own free will choice to sin ony.

My faith in the GOODNESS of GOD will not be eroded any more by the lies of orthodoxy that GOD knowingly created people to go to hell and then made, created, them to do so by making them inherit another person's sin! Not only is this AGAINST SCRIPTURE* but it is against all reason that HE would create HIS BRIDE as evil and disgustingly corrupt (by any means) so that her best is as filthy rags, just to have to heal her and then start the marriage!

*Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child (human) will not share the guilt of the parent (Adam), nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity.

15 Amazing Attributes of God: What They Mean and Why They Matter